Johns Hopkins SAIS or Columbia SIPA

[clim8phd]

Alright, who applied to SAIS and SIPA ?? They are both cheapskates in terms of funding. Are these programs really worth the debt ?

[stilesg57]

I know SAIS generally is. I know several people from that program and all are extremely successful. Don't know any SIPA grads, though I'm troubled by rumors I hear about the program being a bit of a cash cow for Columbia You would get to take classes from my favorite living economist at SIPA though - I have a man-crush on Stiglitz

[clim8phd]

I know SAIS generally is. I know several people from that program and all are extremely successful. Don't know any SIPA grads, though I'm troubled by rumors I hear about the program being a bit of a cash cow for Columbia You would get to take classes from my favorite living economist at SIPA though - I have a man-crush on Stiglitz

Moo. What exactly is successful? Is this success ~2-3, 3-5, or more like 10-20 years after degree?

[stilesg57]

Take your pick.

A guy 5 years out of SAIS who wrote a letter of rec for me is working on green technology investment in China with PriceWaterhouseCoopers. His partner, a Harvard undergrad from Moldova (yeah, I had to googlemap it too), was 3 years out of SAIS. Another girl working on a similar project is 10 or so years out, but she's more senior and working on the money/finance side of things rather than the analysis/consulting side and I feel very comfortable saying she's a millionaire. The head of CSR for Nike in China is a SAIS grad; judging by her age I'd say she's no more than 10 years out. Three people I worked with at KPMG in the Shanghai, Manila, and SanFran offices were all SAIS grads - all were mid-30s or younger. Finally, a girl I grew up with (who's a couple years older than me) just graduated last year and is working with the UN on public health issues in central West Africa.

I was shocked at the utter dominance of SAIS grads in Beijing and Shanghai. Consulting, finance, social entrepreneurship - you name it, they were running the show. Seeing how Natalie (my childhood friend) is doing in a completely different job on the other side of the globe leads me to believe it's not just a China thing either.

That's my experience with SAIS grads. I knew it was a great program before last year, but my experience in China really opened my eyes to just how good SAIS is.

[JBrodsky]

A few thoughts based on my work experience:

I have to second the positive impression of SAIS. In addition to their very significant presence in China (I am in Beijing now, and it's visible), they also do quite well in the traditional DC arena, such as State Department, the Hill, etc. They're rather more heavily recruited by the private sector than some other schools (though SIPA does well too, as do Fletcher and HKS. I'm no as familiar with Gtown, but I know some MSFS grads who were in Lehman when it tanked) because of the quant focus, etc. Yet I'd also agree that they seem to do well in very different areas. Google Devin Stewart Carnegie Council if you want an example of a SAIS grad in a very interesting and unusual job.

As for SIPA, I think it also does quite well for itself, particularly in the IGO arena, but also in the private sector. My former boss at my think tank job was on leave from the World Bank, where she is at the senior fellow level- She was from SIPA. Her assistant, something of a superstar in USAID in terms of age vs. success, also was from SIPA. SIPA is like water for World Bank and UN applicants- their UN internship program can be a valuable foot in the door, if that is your goal. It should be noted that while many people think of SIPA's large size as a negative, it means that it has a tremendously broad network. I don't know how tight-kit and easy to leverage that network is, but SIPA grads seem to be quite literally everywhere.

It's really tough to compare these schools at the end of the day. There are a lot of factors. For example, all things being held equal, going to SIPA may be more expensive than SAIS because of NYC living costs. However, a good friend of mine who went to Princeton UG said that if he wants to go home to Japan and try for the foreign ministry, he was advised to go to YLS, HBS, or SIPA. That's how well-thought of SIPA is in diplomatic circles in Japan, apparently (though I'm well aware that that's only one person's view). Conversely, if you want to do something in DC, the location and connections of SAIS might be a better bet. In the end, either school would give you a good network and serve as a decent platform, but your own personal entrepreneurship is still going to be one of the biggest factors in your success

That said, only you can judge whether or not they are "worth it." It depends on your career goals, whether or not one school is particularly well-suited for your specific focus, your personal financial situation and relative comfort level with taking on debt, whether or not you get aid, whether or not you get substantially more aid somewhere else, and your personal desires (perhaps you're dying to live in NYC or DC).

Good luck with your application and decision.

[le_neocon]

I'm an international student and I've applied to both these places. I think that SIPA students come from a larger variety of backgrounds/experiences. SAIS appears to be more academically focused and traditional. However, these are just initial impressions and I may be totally wrong.

That said, I've never been in touch with either of SIPA or SAIS alums, though I've talked to a few HKS alum. While SAIS has impressed me with its highly rigorous econ content, SIPA just offers me that much more of a job surety just because its in NYC. I wouldn't have access to a lot of jobs in DC and I'm not sure how well SAIS grads do w.r.t private sector/multilateral org jobs. But having taken a look at both curricula, I would tip SAIS over SIPA on that front. Its a tricky decision and one that I would love having to make, if I ever get the chance

[thombo]

Something else to consider is what you, individually, are looking to do with the degree. People pursue these types of degrees in order to move into a vast array of careers, some of which can pay very well (consulting, finance, etc) others that don't pay well at all. Aside from salary expectations, also consider why you want the degree. There are many career paths that are simply inaccessible (or at least very very difficult to break into) without a masters; but if you simply want the degree because you're loath to move into the working world or just want it as a notch on your belt... then maybe not the best idea. This is all stuff you need to take into consideration when you're doing your own risk/benefit analysis and determining if the investment of time and money is worthwhile.

I can say that having lived in DC and worked in the int'l affairs arena for a couple years, my ability to move into and up through the career path I want will be close to impossible without an MA. I'm looking at schools because they are a means through which I can do what I want in my career (not simply because on salary basis my prospects are any higher).

So, ask yourself those questions and make the decision for yourself. Regardless of whether its SIPA or SAIS or any other school that may or may not be expensive, at the end of the day, it's an investment of time and money and it's up to you to decide the value.

Oh, and I've met many very very successful people coming out of those (the other major IR) programs.

I'm an international student and I've applied to both these places. I think that SIPA students come from a larger variety of backgrounds/experiences. SAIS appears to be more academically focused and traditional. However, these are just initial impressions and I may be totally wrong.

That said, I've never been in touch with either of SIPA or SAIS alums, though I've talked to a few HKS alum. While SAIS has impressed me with its highly rigorous econ content, SIPA just offers me that much more of a job surety just because its in NYC. I wouldn't have access to a lot of jobs in DC and I'm not sure how well SAIS grads do w.r.t private sector/multilateral org jobs. But having taken a look at both curricula, I would tip SAIS over SIPA on that front. Its a tricky decision and one that I would love having to make, if I ever get the chance

[clim8phd]

Wow. This turned into a marketing thread for SAIS.... my impression is that the Columbia name carries better internationally, whereas SAIS is lesser known outside of the US. Is this just a stereotype?

Question: is SAIS a place for Republicans ?

[ashtangi]

Hi!

Does anyone know when can we expect the admission decisions from SAIS and Georgetown's MSFS? I've also been looking tirelessly for posts on SAIS's Nanjing campus (I applied to both the D.C. and the Nanjing campus), but there is barely any info on this or any other website about the China campus. Are there any other Hopkins-Nanjing Center applicants out there?

[Captain Moneybags]

I can vouch for SAIS's cheapness- or my own inadequacy. Probably both. Either way, I got a $20,000 fellowship from SIPA and access to $20,000 in loans from SAIS. Leaning SIPA's way, but I'm still having a tough time making the final call. You all aren't making it any easier either. Goal is to work somewhere in the private sector- either something in energy, security or finance. Any ideas, friends?

[le_neocon]

This is proving to be a tough decision. SAIS or SIPA. I have no funding at SIPA, and I'm yet to receive any funding info from SAIS. I've seen people rejecting either one for the other. SIPA receives bad press from every college, for some strange reason, even though its just as expensive as any other school. Here's what I've managed to gather myself.

Facts and Assumptions

1. SAIS seems to be more 'revered' academically and professionally and a lot of it is in part due to a notable alumni base and well known people in the faculty.

2. Theres nothing between the two in terms of curriculum content. I think SIPA's IFEP is just as good, if not better than anything SAIS will have to offer.

3. The SAIS student community seems to be more well knit. I've been spending a lot of time reading their newsletters, SAIS observer, morningside post I'm not sure about SIPA on that front. A large class size, well ..

4. SAIS seems to put in you a strong position for World Bank, IMF jobs etc. SIPA doesn't do too bad either, with the UN office nearby. I'm really not going to read too much into average salaries here. I really think its level of significance is wrongly overstated.

5. At the end of the day, New York is New York. I'm guessing DC is just as expensive as New York. And maybe a New York budget is more flexible.

6. Columbia is more revered internationally at the end of the day. I've already tried explaining Johns Hopkins to a lot of common folk here and they do inevitably ask about the medical school connection.

Open Questions

1. I'm of the opinion that domestic students might favor SAIS a little more, which leads me to question what international students would prefer ? I've yet to talk to an international student from SAIS. From what I've seen SAIS has a strong US perspective in their policy studies. SIPA has a more international faculty base. Also, does DC - the location work for just domestic students, or is it equally good for international students. For now I'm tending towards the former.

2. What is the average debt at SAIS ? SIPA has been quite vocal about its second year scholarship and the full year tuition seems to be really appealing. How about SAIS ? Except for a few instances of $10-15K scholarships, I haven't seen people receiving aid ( I'm yet to receive any info myself ). Do SAIS students at least get a sizeable amount during their second year ?

For now its even stevens, if anyone has an honest opinion, feel free to answer/add to this

[Hopster]

This is proving to be a tough decision. SAIS or SIPA. I have no funding at SIPA, and I'm yet to receive any funding info from SAIS. I've seen people rejecting either one for the other. SIPA receives bad press from every college, for some strange reason, even though its just as expensive as any other school. Here's what I've managed to gather myself.

Facts and Assumptions

1. SAIS seems to be more 'revered' academically and professionally and a lot of it is in part due to a notable alumni base and well known people in the faculty.

2. Theres nothing between the two in terms of curriculum content. I think SIPA's IFEP is just as good, if not better than anything SAIS will have to offer.

3. The SAIS student community seems to be more well knit. I've been spending a lot of time reading their newsletters, SAIS observer, morningside post I'm not sure about SIPA on that front. A large class size, well ..

4. SAIS seems to put in you a strong position for World Bank, IMF jobs etc. SIPA doesn't do too bad either, with the UN office nearby. I'm really not going to read too much into average salaries here. I really think its level of significance is wrongly overstated.

5. At the end of the day, New York is New York. I'm guessing DC is just as expensive as New York. And maybe a New York budget is more flexible.

6. Columbia is more revered internationally at the end of the day. I've already tried explaining Johns Hopkins to a lot of common folk here and they do inevitably ask about the medical school connection.

Open Questions

1. I'm of the opinion that domestic students might favor SAIS a little more, which leads me to question what international students would prefer ? I've yet to talk to an international student from SAIS. From what I've seen SAIS has a strong US perspective in their policy studies. SIPA has a more international faculty base. Also, does DC - the location work for just domestic students, or is it equally good for international students. For now I'm tending towards the former.

2. What is the average debt at SAIS ? SIPA has been quite vocal about its second year scholarship and the full year tuition seems to be really appealing. How about SAIS ? Except for a few instances of $10-15K scholarships, I haven't seen people receiving aid ( I'm yet to receive any info myself ). Do SAIS students at least get a sizeable amount during their second year ?

For now its even stevens, if anyone has an honest opinion, feel free to answer/add to this

From an International Student perspective, Columbia is better known than SAIS, just because it is Columbia. In the field, even if SAIS is known, I am not sure that people really see the difference between the 2 in terms of academic excellence. It is likely that in 10 years all what your work connections will have in mind is that you have done "Columbia" at some point in your life, which is better known that SAIS (at least from an International Perspective, it depends if you want to work domestically in the US or abroad?). 

That's the way I see it, and it's one of the main reason why I did not apply to SAIS.

[goingintodebt]

Here is an important question: What percentage of SAIS students have employment secured before graduation? In 2003, it was 43%, which is a terrible number. I am about to take out 100k in loans to go to SAIS, but when the payments are due a month after graduation, am I going to be completely screwed? Does anyone have current info about the % employed before graduation?

Best,

[saiser]

Here is an important question: What percentage of SAIS students have employment secured before graduation? In 2003, it was 43%, which is a terrible number. I am about to take out 100k in loans to go to SAIS, but when the payments are due a month after graduation, am I going to be completely screwed? Does anyone have current info about the % employed before graduation?

Best,

'

http://www.sais-jhu.edu/bin/a/l/SAIS_EmpOutlk09.pdf

"95% of the graduating class reported that they had accepted employment or a fellowship, or had gone on to further study."

2008 was also 95% and it was 93% in 2007, so the recession hasn't had an impact although more people go into the public/multilateral sector now.

[carpecc]

Interesting article on SAIS and life there from Wharton Biz school.

http://media.www.whartonjournal.com/media/storage/paper201/news/2005/11/21/Perspectives/The-Classroom.Environment.Lessons.From.Sais-1111223.shtml

I think the last bit at the end "Hard Work Does Not Equal Learning" is particular interesting. It sounds like SAIS people work themselves to death and don't have any free time. This would definitely not suit me.

While my friends that went to SIPA said that classes are rigorous, they didn't sound overwhelming and time was left to share with classmates and experience the city. Unfortunately I don't have any friends that went to SAIS DC that can corroborate this article. I know SAIS Nanjing can be very time consuming or fairly easy, but this really depends on how good your Chinese is going in, particularly writing.

Anyone have input on SAIS DC's workload?

[saiser]

I have to say I haven't really experienced the Wharton joint degree guy's observations. People at SAIS work hard because the econ courses can be challenging if you don't have the background. However, I find the workload at SAIS to be completely reasonable, such that most people can take on 10-30 hr internships while keeping up with the academics. And compared to my undergrad, I think SAISers are much more outgoing. Happy Hour is a good start, and there always seem to be a bunch of parties going on.

Also disagree with the lack of career clubs. There are quite a few, and they are among the best-funded at SAIS.

[energie]

I have to say I haven't really experienced the Wharton joint degree guy's observations. People at SAIS work hard because the econ courses can be challenging if you don't have the background. However, I find the workload at SAIS to be completely reasonable, such that most people can take on 10-30 hr internships while keeping up with the academics. And compared to my undergrad, I think SAISers are much more outgoing. Happy Hour is a good start, and there always seem to be a bunch of parties going on.

Also disagree with the lack of career clubs. There are quite a few, and they are among the best-funded at SAIS.

I totally agree with my fellow SAISer. Workloads at SAIS are manageable. Because we're in DC, many, to my knowledge only, intern in the government(commerce, treasury etc.) during the semester. There are all kind of career clubs for every sector of jobs in international affairs that you might imagine, from Development to Intelligence&Defense, or International Organizations etc. You can join every club freely and and they are very active.

[007]

From your remarks, it seems to be somewhat implied that SIPA has a better shot in the private sector. As I am thinking of forfeiting my SAIS admission and instead applying to SIPA in two years, would you say this is reasonable? I am particulalry concerned about the IFEP concentration at SIPA and its potential advantage over SAIS in terms of entry into the financial industry. Any more advice?

[Cha]

Hi, I was wondering for anybody who has had any experience in SAIS - how difficult is it to change your program concentration once you've been admitted to the program? I applied for China Studies but now I think I may want to change my focus to a functional studies program (it might be more practical?).

Alternatively, as a SAIS graduate does it truly matter what your focus of study was in terms of career options? Does your choice of focus significantly limit and/or help you in any way?

[SIPA_FSO]

Hello, I'm a somewhat recent SIPA grad who found himself choosing between these two. I'd like to share my thoughts in case it helps anyone.

Short version: SIPA gave me just about everything I was hoping for, but I think SAIS would have been a great fit as well. They're substantially different programs and environments. Both are expensive, and I think people should consider carefully before taking on big debt in today's job environment. But SIPA got me where I needed to go and I've never regretted the choice.

Longer version: When I got accepted, I was working on a career change from private sector to a foreign affairs career, ideally with the U.S. government. SAIS would have been the safe bet: the faculty is well-connected within DC and it's very convenient to do govt internships. At SAIS's open house, I was really impressed by the think tank aura, which felt both fun and professional. The students all looked like they were going places. I'd heard that the World Bank and IMF had big SAIS contingents, and that SAIS alums were also well-represented at my dream employer, the State Dept. And while the general public may not know what SAIS is, it is very highly regarded within foreign affairs circles.

I wasn't able to make it to SIPA's open house. I chose it sight-unseen after a long night of deliberation. In the end it came down to me being a West-coaster looking at perhaps his only chance to live in NYC. If I was going to spend the rest of my career in the Federal govt, there would be plenty of time for the Beltway later. So I chose SIPA, picked a concentration that focused on topics relevant to a US foreign policy career, and resigned myself to frequent Greyhound trips to DC for interviews. The Hostel International at 11th and K has an ironing board in the basement.

I found a lot of freedom within SIPA to make it what I needed it to be. The students, a 50-50 mix of US and overseas, ran the gamut from somewhat flaky to enormously impressive, including some of the most agile thinkers I've yet to meet. There was great diversity in terms of age and professional background. And you could put together a very demanding curriculum or one that left loads of time for internships, networking, or partying with the Brazilians.

SIPA is a cash cow for Columbia. Or was. I think the dean is aware of this problem and is trying to fix it. I did find that being part of a big university had advantages. We had access to a group of world-class language departments (and best of luck keeping up with 18-year old brains when learning Mandarin), and the shared facilities and global name recognition are also worth something.

I ended up with my dream job, which oddly required neither an internship nor a masters degree (although I've heard that the Foreign Service Test now includes a resume submission). I've found DC to be quite livable for the short times I've been posted here. And a whole squadron of my SIPA friends moved down as well. Among my coworkers, I've met many SAIS grads, along with GW, AU, Woody Woo, and the always dominant Georgetown mafia. We all ended up in the same place. But I got to see New York on the way. Good luck to all of you.