PlantinMoretus

The program director teaches the class I have this afternoon and I planned to interrupt him and talk about this in front of everyone.

Thanks TakerUK - it'd definitely be worse if I failed as a result of all this! Thanks to everyone for their comments, I feel a bit better now. Later on, when I've calmed down, I might comment to the director that having some form of second opinion much earlier in the process would be very helpful.

Hmmmm....for some reason my program doesn't have committees for theses. It's just you and your advisor until the thing is done. The second reader and Chair get like a week to review your work before the defense. That is very late to find out there are problems. My advisor has only been with the uni for a few years, the second reader is very new (like only joined the uni a year ago) and the Chair has been there for over a decade. So it's quite possible that they are not all in agreement about the standards etc for theses, and sort of discovered that at my defense. My advisor was left to his own devices and he left me to my own devices and yeah, bit of a recipe for disaster. Ugh. Not a great feeling.

This is re: a master's thesis. Advisor and I agree earlier this year on my topic, methods and yadda. Along the way advisor is very hands-off, and pretty much approves whatever I do, with just superficial edits, comments, etc. Tells me I'm ready to defend. At the defense, suddenly I'm hearing about all these problems with my methods. The second reader and chair have big concerns. (Valid ones, I might add. Stuff I was sorta aware of and was surprised my advisor said nothing about. But hey, he approved it.) Then my advisor starts chiming in. I was not prepared to hear at that stage that there were so many problems. Hell a couple weeks before my advisor was talking about re-working the thesis into a publication. So I stumbled badly over that part of the discussion. The final decision was "pass with minor revisions" which is the norm for my program. From past students I never heard any defense stories like mine. Usually they say their defense was fairly relaxed. So I feel like crap! Looking back, what should I have done differently? I mean, it would be weird to challenge your advisor's approval of your work, so I don't know what I should have done.

You've completely misrepresented my comments. I never said it was about inside v. outside academia or downtown v. the suburbs. I also never said it was a matter of finding people who are functionally literate. Lots of people are functionally literate but dull as dishwater. It helps to be able to read but if you never, ever read anything intelligent about anything of importance, it doesn't do you much good re: developing your mind, worldview, etc. I can't understand why you can't understand that when an entire culture is largely slush, most of the people in that culture will have slush in their heads most of the time, and have no idea that it's slush. Or that the person who wants to go beyond slush sometimes will struggle to find fellow travellers. To use my Huxley example, how does a person who reads Huxley get by in a culture where the majority of people would not understand a Huxley reference or even know who he was? Sounds like you think they should just assume the problem is theirs, take more soma and go to the feelies.

Yeah, I am sure. All that was drawn from a variety of people I've known for different lengths of time in various settings. Also, I'm in my mid-40s so I've met lots of people over the years, including a stint overseas, and have been involved in different community/group things too. It seems unlikely that in all that time, lots of those people had hidden depths that I just failed to discover. Trust me, I looked, I waited, I tossed out a few pebbles and... nothing. Remember what I said upthread about how most people do not read a serious book or long article on a serious topic (or watch a documentary or go to an event or whatever) in an entire year. The functional literacy of the general population is like less than 50%. Look at what the most popular TV shows are - THAT is where the culture is at. Is it really surprising that an intellectually curious person would find few people to talk to in such a culture? The numbers alone work against them. Nope, you can't just throw it onto the other person without justification. Particularly when you relate anecdotes that show your own, not 100% positive not 100% under your control, reactions to certain people. And you can't just decide to feel that you have connected meaningfully to another person, anymore than you can just decide to be physically attracted to someone. It has to be genuine. And frankly, no, I don't feel that I am flawed in some way because a diet of car-insurance or celebrity-gossip discussions doesn't cut it for me.

But that's just an insult based on your assumptions, you have no evidence to back it up. It also does nothing to address the problem - even as you define it. What should such a person do? How much time and energy should they give to banal conversations? How much of a real friendship can you have with people who really do only ever want to talk about banal stuff? And before you say "you are not the judge of what is banal!", consider the kinds of topics that I'm saying are banal: the terms of one's car insurance and the insurance payouts to various people you know who had car accidents; finding a good deal on a baby stroller on a trip out of town and the hassles involved with bringing it home; what clothes to take on a Vegas vacation; how your family decided to exchange gift cards rather than gifts for Christmas this year to save hassle. That is just a sampling of the typical conversations had among most of the people I know. Tell me how someone with an intellectual bent is supposed to work up an interest in all that? On a day-in day-out basis? I mean that quite seriously: tell me how to solve that problem.

I think people are mixing up academics v. non-academics with intellectuals v. non-intellectuals, also mixing up talking about your specialization v. having intelligent conversations on worthwhile topics. So when someone says "I have difficulty finding people to have intelligent conversations on worthwhile topics", they get piled on with "people outside your specialization are smart and know about worthwhile things too! don't judge them!" when that is not at all what the person was saying. Let's face it, lots of people, regardless of their academic background, job, whatever, are dull as dishwater and really only have TV, gossip, shopping and sports to talk about. I've heard plenty of these conversations and they can go on forever. At a New's Eve party I went to, a woman somehow managed to hold court for over an hour about what music she listened to on the drive down to the party, and it was all mainstream pop music, so why anyone needs to know that I don't know. "Really? you listened to some Katy Perry and then you switched to Lady Gaga? Fascinating." Another guy talked about the credit cards that super-rich people have, how rich you need to be to get one and so on. It was pure slush, and I don't feel bad about finding these people dull. And it's quite possible to go YEARS only meeting people like this, because most people are like this. And it's a real slog for anyone who craves something more.

From the Asperger's community I have also heard "NTs" as in "neuro-typicals".

I don't think it's so much about within/without academia. Plenty of academics aren't intellectual at all, and plenty of intellectuals do their thing outside of academia. Though admittedly it is rare for someone with an intellectual bent not to spend at least a little time at university unless life circumstances such as poverty or family obligations make it impossible. It's just that there aren't many intellectuals to begin with. I am no spring chicken and in my time I have met lots of people and VERY few are what I would consider intellectual. I think curiosity is the major characteristic of an intellectual and it's truly shocking how few people are curious about anything. I mean literally not. one. thing. Most people don't read one book or a long article on a serious topic in a whole year, even a decade. Or watch a documentary or go to a lecture or event or in some way seek out new information, ideas or perspectives. Or learn a new skill or hobby. You get the idea. I want to be clear: I'm not saying it's about who has an advanced degree or what job they have or whether they've read this or that. It's more about a way of looking at the world, taking an interest in it. E.g. I saw a man in a park with his kids, they were using an app on his smartphone to identify the various trees and shrubs. That totally counts as intellectual in my book. In contrast, I know someone who has a master's from the LSE whose major interests in life are her hair, clothes, and makeup. She never, ever mentions any other interests AT ALL. (She does, however, have a system for keeping track of which shoes of different heel heights go with which pants of different lengths.) Just my two cents.

See, I know those people exist, but I never meet them! I work full-time and am doing my master's part-time so I literally have no time for seeking out new friends. Maybe when I've finished the degree. Anyway, it was this lecture, in case you're interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RX-iUfPJ9I

I can relate to this, although it's not so much about "lay people" as just people who are not on the same intellectual level. E.g. I listened to a old lecture by Aldous Huxley over the weekend. It wasn't for school or anything, I'm just interested in Huxley. But I literally do not know a single person (IRL) with whom I could discuss Huxley. Most people in my circle of acquaintance don't know who he was, let alone how his work has any relevance to today's society. So, no Huxley chats for me then. But if I wanted to talk about shopping or the Kimye wedding, I'd be all set. When it's like that all the time, it gets pretty lonely. Downplaying your true interests and faking an interest in topics like shopping, Kimye, Duck Dynasty or whatever is equally lonely. So it's tough and I don't know what the solution is.

Vent about finding an advisor: Program director and others suggest a particular prof, based on prof's interest and my topic. I meet with prof. My first question: what is your availability? Prof's answer: I still have some room. Prof then strings me along for weeks, giving mixed messages, running hot and cold. I pick up on this and give prof lots of opportunities to say No, but prof never does. Prof and I agree that I will send prof a nice package of info on my topic etc. I do. Wait a week. Prof emails me to say prof never looked at any of my info but anyway has no availability. Acts like prof already told me No and I've just weirdly sent the info. Probably for the best because prof clearly has issues with communication and decision-making. BUT STILL. If you're not available, JUST SAY SO and don't waste your time or mine.