mdiv2014

i don't read sop's but can tell you specific, heart-clutching and true anecdotes/or shorter specific points in your life that showed a decision point is what makes the adcom pause, raise their eyebrows and go hhhhhmmm. in other words, this is what distinguishes you from the pack in a VERY good way
i normally don't read sop's but having looked at your ideas for first paragraph - they all suck, are boring, and are no different from the pack
and do you realize in one of your paragraphs you trashed Mormonism? personally, i would have stopped right there and canned you
seriously
everyone at hds for example has a personal narrative and has had struggles, but no one trashes another religion
that aside, paint the picture of your dysfunctional family - what decisions did you make and why?
for mts and mdiv, be personal, but don't just repackage your resume/transcript, tell them about your struggles and decisions
your transcript and lor's will flush out the academic strengths you have, get personal in the sop - but well crafted

i started my comments with this line ----
I am going to offer a totally different response here. (preface --- I am not faulting the students or you or fellow posters)
 
my posts are from my perspective of 20 years in teaching - corporate (oh yes, i've taught entitled employee students ..... professional oil company workers who got their jobs by their connections and are only motivated to be assigned english classes for a while because the catered meals are good) , university (army soldiers deployed to a combat zone -  yes, i excused a young trooper from a class because she politely explained she had to do maintenance on her jeep before the convoy into iraq - what was i going to do - say no and quote the syllabus?) and grade school as a licensed state teacher (my license was first granted when you , my fellow posters, were too young for pimples)
so, yes, from my tone , i am a bit defensive at y our reaction to my posts .... let's all be civil

Offering a dmin is a monumental institutional committment. Hds has not released any press in favor of this.

you know, i have to push back and defend my ground here - given the hate messages I've received via pm (really,?!, sad it is or perhaps a drunk and lonely phd student on valentive's day with nothing better to do, and .... very cavish [allegory of the cave, duh] in the platonic sense).
i read this website and its long history of posts/threads for general knowledge - which is served with a helping of salt - and see and hear what i see and hear in the day job of studying..... my view is the majority (?) of religion graduate students (masters and phd) couldn't go to a sister graduate school at their institution and know their 1st amendment from their 4th amendment, let only articulate eloquently something outside their field in religion which an up and coming undergraduate should know (e.g. the cocktail party questions "so, you're in div school, tell me about jainism...") and i ask "Are we too narrow in our focus?" are we, and the phd students who are giving me hate, one trick ponies?
and you have no idea on my background, so don't go to the 'it's a matter of perspective' argument....
but fair is fair, a don't think a dba could spout off accounting, managerial complexities, financial investments, etc etc with ease - stop hating and just answer the question.......ghesh...

you know, i have to push back and defend my ground here - given the hate messages I've received via pm (really,?!, sad it is or perhaps a drunk and lonely phd student on valentive's day with nothing better to do, and .... very cavish [allegory of the cave, duh] in the platonic sense).
i read this website and its long history of posts/threads for general knowledge - which is served with a helping of salt - and see and hear what i see and hear in the day job of studying..... my view is the majority (?) of religion graduate students (masters and phd) couldn't go to a sister graduate school at their institution and know their 1st amendment from their 4th amendment, let only articulate eloquently something outside their field in religion which an up and coming undergraduate should know (e.g. the cocktail party questions "so, you're in div school, tell me about jainism...") and i ask "Are we too narrow in our focus?" are we, and the phd students who are giving me hate, one trick ponies?
and you have no idea on my background, so don't go to the 'it's a matter of perspective' argument....
but fair is fair, a don't think a dba could spout off accounting, managerial complexities, financial investments, etc etc with ease - stop hating and just answer the question.......ghesh...

you know, i have to push back and defend my ground here - given the hate messages I've received via pm (really,?!, sad it is or perhaps a drunk and lonely phd student on valentive's day with nothing better to do, and .... very cavish [allegory of the cave, duh] in the platonic sense).
i read this website and its long history of posts/threads for general knowledge - which is served with a helping of salt - and see and hear what i see and hear in the day job of studying..... my view is the majority (?) of religion graduate students (masters and phd) couldn't go to a sister graduate school at their institution and know their 1st amendment from their 4th amendment, let only articulate eloquently something outside their field in religion which an up and coming undergraduate should know (e.g. the cocktail party questions "so, you're in div school, tell me about jainism...") and i ask "Are we too narrow in our focus?" are we, and the phd students who are giving me hate, one trick ponies?
and you have no idea on my background, so don't go to the 'it's a matter of perspective' argument....
but fair is fair, a don't think a dba could spout off accounting, managerial complexities, financial investments, etc etc with ease - stop hating and just answer the question.......ghesh...

you know, i have to push back and defend my ground here - given the hate messages I've received via pm (really,?!, sad it is or perhaps a drunk and lonely phd student on valentive's day with nothing better to do, and .... very cavish [allegory of the cave, duh] in the platonic sense).
i read this website and its long history of posts/threads for general knowledge - which is served with a helping of salt - and see and hear what i see and hear in the day job of studying..... my view is the majority (?) of religion graduate students (masters and phd) couldn't go to a sister graduate school at their institution and know their 1st amendment from their 4th amendment, let only articulate eloquently something outside their field in religion which an up and coming undergraduate should know (e.g. the cocktail party questions "so, you're in div school, tell me about jainism...") and i ask "Are we too narrow in our focus?" are we, and the phd students who are giving me hate, one trick ponies?
and you have no idea on my background, so don't go to the 'it's a matter of perspective' argument....
but fair is fair, a don't think a dba could spout off accounting, managerial complexities, financial investments, etc etc with ease - stop hating and just answer the question.......ghesh...

you know, i have to push back and defend my ground here - given the hate messages I've received via pm (really,?!, sad it is or perhaps a drunk and lonely phd student on valentive's day with nothing better to do, and .... very cavish [allegory of the cave, duh] in the platonic sense).
i read this website and its long history of posts/threads for general knowledge - which is served with a helping of salt - and see and hear what i see and hear in the day job of studying..... my view is the majority (?) of religion graduate students (masters and phd) couldn't go to a sister graduate school at their institution and know their 1st amendment from their 4th amendment, let only articulate eloquently something outside their field in religion which an up and coming undergraduate should know (e.g. the cocktail party questions "so, you're in div school, tell me about jainism...") and i ask "Are we too narrow in our focus?" are we, and the phd students who are giving me hate, one trick ponies?
and you have no idea on my background, so don't go to the 'it's a matter of perspective' argument....
but fair is fair, a don't think a dba could spout off accounting, managerial complexities, financial investments, etc etc with ease - stop hating and just answer the question.......ghesh...

I'll bite. If we assume (as you have) that the purpose of being trained for one's 'nonreligious practice' is decidedly not 'spiritual'--and as you suggest, 'naturalistic'--then, yeah, it all seems a bit bizarre. This is, in my opinion, a false dichotomy, though one many people buy into, secular folks included. I imagine if you were in a class/setting somewhere like HDS that offers humanist training that, unless such a person happened to be commenting upon a specific theological issue marking them as an 'outsider', you would be none the wiser as to their (a)theological persuasions. This is not the forum to discuss the 'real' meaning of these terms, but in brief I will just say that we might distinguish 'humanism' from 'naturalism.' Many secular people simply use the term humanist to denote their care for humans, the world, and living creatures; but the term has also served to distance its representatives from (seemingly) negative labels that suggest unethical traits such as 'atheism'. Because naturalism is often conflated with a more 'militant' form of atheism (some might think this is the only form of atheism), it has also begun to carry similar associations. My point is that humanists share more (much more, in fact) in common with the other training MDiv students than not. Groups use words in different ways, ones that are deeply tied to the majority group in this country (Christians). That such programs have gained steam alongside of more traditional MDiv programs attests more to our similarities, not our differences, as humans. We are all humanists, I think. We all (?) feel that deep need to improve our communities and the same training offered to more traditional pastors is integral to the health and sustainability of these fragile communities. 

How does a nonreligious person benefit in their nonreligious practice by earning a degree geared toward spiritual formation and interreligious education?

Guess it depends on what you mean by humanist ... would you be pursuing it purely for secular academic purposes? If so, why do MDiv instead of MTS? If some type of Christian ministry or ordination is undesired, I think you would just be willingly abusing yourself.

Pretty much what marxian said ^^^. 
 
Anecdotal evidence from 20 years ago can be devastating. Either way, it would be interesting to see admission rates for phd applications then to now (I'm fairly certain no stats exist for that age).
 
I also want to say that while HDS may be less tolerant in some ways of your 'conservative' views, I'm not sure if such settings would be 'better or worse' than somewhere like SLU or any other Jesuit university (as you say). What I have found in my time with the Jesuits (somewhat extensive, I think), and I think by extension I might generalize a bit of Catholic schools, is that your own views on the biblical text will not be as devastating to their theology. It is simply not 'on the radar' for many scholars in such settings. Moreover, the Jesuits schools, just as many Catholic universities, are comprised (excluding the priests) of many secular academics. This brings me to another point: if and when you arrive at any of these institutions, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, or secular, your views will not pit you against the mob as if in some epic. In truth, you will mark yourself, perhaps early on or slowly, as someone who is not able to engage in the common scholarly discourse. In fact, you likely won't even be laughed at. You will simply bewilder your peers and professors. And then they will go about their business, forgetting that you once stood firm in your suggestion in class that the biblical text(s) has no contradictions. 
 
cheers

Having read this thread, I want to attend to your first question while being mindful of your reasons for wanting to apply. Honestly, I don't think you can go through an MTS, especially at places that require core or introductory courses, without necessitating a fairly dramatic change in your views to be very productive in classroom discussions and papers. It is not that professors will not respect your different perspective, but the experience of the MTS as a whole will be a formidable challenge to your previously held beliefs—more so in some areas than others. In the core courses themselves, lectures will focus on multiple perspectives but will also argue the merits of a particular viewpoint.
 
As a sympathizer with post liberal theology and approaches to Scripture who has been to several institutions that are formative in that area, I would also argue that such approaches to Scripture do not provide a "safe haven" from critical scholarship if that is what you are hoping to get out of it. If you go to a mainline school, you will be exposed to new ideas that will be formative, ideas that will cause seismic shifts in your thinking. I don't think you will enjoy master's work in particular if you are not open to possibly changing even foundational presuppositions. 
 
I do think you can do PhD work a lot more easily as an inerrantist, and that is pretty much the typical route of scholars like the ones newenglandshawn mentioned. I think this sort of pathway has gotten harder due to competition. They often go to a conservative seminary, especially an institution tied to their own denomination, and then only after that go to more popular institutions for their doctoral work. In such a scenario, it is not hard to imagine statements like "I can take everything that was useful to me and put it in one lecture" being made. The, at best, moderate forms of discussion you would enjoy in coursework, conversations with your advisor and fellow students, and at conferences would not have nearly the same powerful effect on your thinking as those core courses in a master's program would. The difference between making such a move at the master's level vs. the doctoral level is you are not exposed to those formative classes, and any sharing of ideas or different perspectives takes place simply through discussions, which I do not think are nearly as formative. A PhD, after all, is designed to build upon introductory degrees like the MDiv or MTS.
 
In these discussions there are at least two theories of the purpose of a theological education at work. Theological education is either a . . .
 
1. Selectivist or Individualist Task in which education takes on individualist and selective overtones. The primary task is the mere assembly of knowledge, and probably out of an ideological world that is constructed upon presuppositions you do not accept. Your goal here is to merely select from what is otherwise a large, unrelated mass of "epistemological material" those elements of their ideas that are helpful to your project. In this approach, your work is probably better spent with people whose ideological work
 
or a . . .
 
2. Formative or Communal Task in which education takes on communal and participatory overtones. You, with fellow students, are participating in the life of the school and learning about the merits of the "forms of knowledge" offered by the faculty and its students, and you in many ways see yourself resonating with them, in other ways not. No two persons here completely agree, but they still operate around a formative center of beliefs and practices that help bring to life theological projects that are at least somewhat cooperative with those forms of knowledge, build off of them, and bring the conversation into new areas of consideration. In this way you do draw particular ideas from a larger mass of "epistemological material" in this approach as well, but it is still in many ways a project of construction upon the foundation from which that "epistemological material" is built. I think this is what you will experience at institutions that are a good "fit."
 
Honestly, I think you have probably done enough masters work to get into PhD programs. A masters would help insofar as it allows you to gain recommendations from people in that area of the academy whose conversations include potential advisors at institutions where you want to do doctoral work, but it would not be helpful for the purpose of academic work itself if you are afraid of being re-formed or are unwilling to participate on a deeper level in the sorts of formative work that takes place in MTS programs. They are, after all, introductory degrees. Besides this, you will definitely ant to ask yourself how you sure you want to work with the specialists at, say, Harvard or Emory? Are they a good fit at all? Because they can only accept like one or two students a year, and they will not end up selecting you if you find yourself at an uncrossable ideological gap between them.
 
That said, I get the sense that you are perhaps anticipating the likelihood of change and seem more easy-going in this regard. After all, none of us are going to think the same things now as we will in, say, 20 years. You could find yourself in a place of denominational transition, but the solution to that particular problem isn't found by merely attending TT institutions, it is found in attending places where you can both be formed, challenged, and ultimately be a scholar that builds upon a foundation that is conducive both to your work as a PhD student and as a scholar thereafter. Besides this, most Christian theological institutions of higher learning will represent many denominational perspectives well, so you won't be found wanting if you don't go TT.
 
Further, presuming you are a part of the SBC or a smaller conservative Baptist association/convention, you could possibly transition to the CBF or even the NBC, thereby solving most of your potential concerns of denominational fit. Denominational preference is a fickle thing, especially when you don't have any particular interest in being a pastor. I know incredibly intelligent people who have changed denominations three times throughout their masters.
 
For reasons like the ones I mentioned above, I would try to re-orient your thinking about your reasons for applying and what sort of path you want to take indoor academic preparation. Every advisor, professor, and admissions director will tell you unequivocally that it is ultimately about fit—or the sharing of enough common ground to make your educational experience conducive to both your goals and their goals in educating their students. If you can make that work, I do not see why you would be nervous about what will actually be taught to you. If you find yourself nervous and against the stances each institution takes on things like biblical inerrancy or methods in linguistics, translation, etc., then you would be better off operating in institutions that share your interests and approaches more deeply.

Are you an inerrantist and is this reflected in your work?

being at harvard, i can say there is a fair handful of M students with 'unrelated' bach. degrees. take a look at hds courses and how they (into 2017) match your interest and keep in mind you can cross enroll to greater harvard community (gsas, etc)
sop should show passion. what you can bring to the table. i see many specific and many broadly interested mts students here. you have a shot , feel free to pm me

If you're speaking about interview questions, they would NEVER ask such a specific and potentially biased question. 
In an application, I can't remember if 'marital status' is listed. If it would be, it would be for administrative purposes and like ethnicity, be in a portion of the application which is withheld from the adcom. Believe me, any potentially bias provoking question or detail has been removed from the admiss. process.
If your statement of purpose involves an incident which reveals you have or don't have children, you would not earn any points of sympathy. Applicants want to mention irrelevant facts in their statement of purpose (interest in LGBT, social justice, prison reform, the care of little animals, etc etc) thinking it will help paint a favorable picture of themselves. Read the university's instructions for the SOP very carefully - and do what it says.
Your status of a parent has NO bearing on your admission.

GRE's don't make or break you, and your scores are fine. Good luck!

Those are fine. Keep em and move on to more important aspects of your application.

I know many 'Reverends' who merely bought the title....

I know many 'Reverends' who merely bought the title....

I know many 'Reverends' who merely bought the title....

I know many 'Reverends' who merely bought the title....

I love marXian and his comments, but, honestly, value the advice of the professors who know you and your work over anonymous posters on an online forum. Seriously, do what your professors recommend you to do.

BUMP
Being a dealer in rare and collectible books, I cannot stress bookfinder.com enough
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=WkKAncpPQDbd3F1D7fiI5E96tW4_2213891704_1:761:3190&bq=author%3Ddenise%2520moyes-schnur%26title%3Dog%2520the%2520terrible%2520returns%2520og%27s%2520further%2520adventures%2520in%2520prayerbook%2520hebrew
this link for classical hebrew og the horrible shows listing from 17-133 usd (whoa, that was including shipping to where i live...)
don't rely just on amazon (it listed it at 133) to buy books