D.min. at HDS?

[Averroes MD]

Hello everyone,

 

So, I've applied to the MTS at HDS.  I'm strongly considering switching to the M'Div if I get in. This is because I think a faith-based approach may make more sense for me, although honestly I am on the fence right now.

 

If I do go that route, then maybe the D.Min would also make sense after the MDiv.  I am, however, a non-Christian and most D.Min. programs are for Christians.  Does anyone at HDS know if they have ever considered offering the D.min at HDS?

 

I know Duke offers a D.Min, but it seems to be only geared towards Christians.  Looks like Hartford Seminary is an option. But, I wonder if HDS ever considered it...

(I know the D.Min. is controversial, as a lot of people want to do it just to be called doctor.  That's not the case for me, since I am actually already an MD doctor and any fascination with being called "dr" has long since passed.)

 

Thank you!

Edited February 5, 2014 by Averroes MD

[doobiebrothers]

what is the difference between a D.Min and a ThD?

[mdiv2014]

Offering a dmin is a monumental institutional committment. Hds has not released any press in favor of this.

[newenglandshawn]

what is the difference between a D.Min and a ThD?

 

A DMin is a "professional" doctorate, while a ThD is still an "academic" one. DMins usually focus more on more practical areas of ministry (e.g., homiletics, or, in the more evangelical context, church growth), while ThDs are the theological equivalent of PhDs (at least that's how they were originally designed, as far as I understand). 

[sacklunch]

You might contact some of the DMin granting schools, but I doubt you would fare well as a non-Christian. Even if you were accepted into one of those programs I think you would be miserable studying in that totally Christian environment. On the other hand, it would be awesome to see a non-Christian pursue a DMin...so keep us informed.

[Kleets712]

HDS is continually having to justify its existence to a university that truly wonders why they should be involved in training religious professionals. If anything, HDS will be getting rid of its ThD and contemplating admitting fewer people and cutting classes over the next ten years. A DMin will likely never be offered.

[newenglandshawn]

HDS is continually having to justify its existence to a university that truly wonders why they should be involved in training religious professionals.

 

Which is both ironic and incredibly tragic, considering Harvard's whole reason for being created in the first place.

[Balatro]

Much of the same conversation is/was (at least) going on at Yale in smaller circles. It was predominantly among the ego driven circles in some of the more reputable professional schools and even among the UG student body. That Div students lowered the academic quality of classes b/c they didn't meet "X-requirements" of whatever pedigree they wanted all Yale students to fulfill.

[Kleets712]

There was a big study done about the status of the study of religion at Harvard, and what they found was that the measurables (GPA, GRE) were on par with other professional schools at Harvard. The problem is the admit rate. As I've stated before, it hovers around 50%, which is by far the highest. The counter is that we have a "self-selecting" applicant pool, but really this is a conversation about why an institution like Harvard should care about training religious professionals (or why they have a church in the center of Harvard Yard). 

[sacklunch]

The admit rate is very high compared with other M* programs in the humanities, but so is almost every other divinity school. I can't see many of the Div schools lowering their acceptance rates anytime soon, since many, perhaps not so much HDS, make a TON of money off the students (MDiv's getting even 50% aid over three years). The only way for them to make their programs more competitive would be to substantially lower their program sizes, thus reducing funds for department faculty and resources. I have heard of Harvard finally saying farewell to their ThD program in order to better align with the overall focus of Harvard as a hardcore research institution, and maybe they should. As far as I know, Harvard's ThD is the only 'pure' academic theological doctorate still available in North America. But, who knows, I have heard that rumor over the last four or five years and have no clue if it will ever change. Anyone have any insight on this?

[Kleets712]

Might be dissolving into PhD as soon as next year - within five absolutely. That was one of the main things that came from the report. 

[Averroes MD]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Offering a dmin is a monumental institutional committment. Hds has not released any press in favor of this.

 

Yeah, that's what I was asking for, i.e. any scuttlebutt about them possibly creating such a program.  I guess not.

 

You might contact some of the DMin granting schools, but I doubt you would fare well as a non-Christian. Even if you were accepted into one of those programs I think you would be miserable studying in that totally Christian environment. On the other hand, it would be awesome to see a non-Christian pursue a DMin...so keep us informed.

 

Thanks!  I'm a Muslim with very liberal religious views.  The options are very limited and I'd rather train in Western institutions than the close-minded institutions that exist in the Muslim world.  I am pretty sure that Hartford Seminary does offer a DMin to Muslims, so that may be an option. I just really, really fell in love with HDS.

 

HDS is continually having to justify its existence to a university that truly wonders why they should be involved in training religious professionals. If anything, HDS will be getting rid of its ThD and contemplating admitting fewer people and cutting classes over the next ten years. A DMin will likely never be offered.

 

 

Which is both ironic and incredibly tragic, considering Harvard's whole reason for being created in the first place.

 

I agree with you!  I really think liberal religion is buoyed by institutions like HDS.  For me personally, a faith-based approach at an academic institution makes all the sense in the world.  

 

Much of the same conversation is/was (at least) going on at Yale in smaller circles. It was predominantly among the ego driven circles in some of the more reputable professional schools and even among the UG student body. That Div students lowered the academic quality of classes b/c they didn't meet "X-requirements" of whatever pedigree they wanted all Yale students to fulfill.

 

The admit rate is very high compared with other M* programs in the humanities, but so is almost every other divinity school. I can't see many of the Div schools lowering their acceptance rates anytime soon, since many, perhaps not so much HDS, make a TON of money off the students (MDiv's getting even 50% aid over three years). The only way for them to make their programs more competitive would be to substantially lower their program sizes, thus reducing funds for department faculty and resources. I have heard of Harvard finally saying farewell to their ThD program in order to better align with the overall focus of Harvard as a hardcore research institution, and maybe they should. As far as I know, Harvard's ThD is the only 'pure' academic theological doctorate still available in North America. But, who knows, I have heard that rumor over the last four or five years and have no clue if it will ever change. Anyone have any insight on this?

 

Actually, I did hear this from a reliable source at Harvard that the ThD will be engulfed by the PhD program.  


HDS seems like a place that recognized the importance of grooming religious professionals in a liberal arts and academic environment.  This has a liberalizing effect on religion.  The other alternative for religious professionals is to train in their small enclaves of people who all believe the same thing.

But, isn't the point of a divinity school to teach religious professionals?  That's the difference between a divinity school and a regular graduate department in religious studies. 

Edited February 6, 2014 by Averroes MD

[mdiv2014]

With your clarifications, it is now obvious to me that what you ultimately seek (a location for a presumably western born convert to Islam or western Muslim to be ordained to minister as a Muslim Sheikh / Syed / Mulla / Chaplin AS WELL AS a liberal arts university that offers terminal degree in religion/DMin) does not exist. Hartford seems to be an either or. A western born convert to Islam that I know went to Syria (before the current conflict) to get a recognizable certificate equivalent to ordination in Islam.  They surprisingly did not have a native level reading ability in Arabic necessary to interpret the Quran from its original Arabic. Maybe the Muslim Council in Great Britain can advice you further on this, but I suspect universities in the UK are either or as well. If you are Shi'a, your quest would inevitably lead you to Qom and Najaf.

Edited February 6, 2014 by mdiv2014

[Averroes MD]

With your clarifications, it is now obvious to me that what you ultimately seek (a location for a presumably western born convert to Islam or western Muslim to be ordained to minister as a Muslim Sheikh / Syed AS WELL AS a liberal arts university that offers terminal degree in religion) does not exist. A western born convert to Islam that I know went to Syria (before the current conflict) to get a recognizable certificate equivalent to ordination in Islam.  They surprisingly did not have a native level reading ability in Arabic necessary to interpret the Quran from its original Arabic. Maybe the Muslim Council in Great Britain can advice you further on this. If you are Shi'a, your quest would inevitably lead you to Qom and Najaf.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

Actually, I was born into a Muslim family.  I've received traditional schooling in Islamic studies on and off for a long time already.  Enrolling full-time in an Islamic seminary is not an option for me, as I do not agree with the (lack of) intellectual environment present at virtually all of the institutions.  The ideological constraints are too tight for me.  The time I spent there was theologically suffocating for me.

 

I'm not seeking an official certificate or anything like that for ordination.  I have some ideas about what I want to do, but I'd rather not post them in a public setting here.  I think HDS provides exactly the intellectual environment I desire, so I am really hoping I get in.  

Note: Oh wow, I noticed you are at HDS doing an MDiv.  Fantastic!  How do you like it?

Edited February 6, 2014 by Averroes MD

[Lux Lex Pax]

Checkout Claremont Lincoln University.

[newenglandshawn]

As far as I know, Harvard's ThD is the only 'pure' academic theological doctorate still available in North America.

 

BU?

 

Also, my alma mater - Andrews University - offers a ThD that is definitely "purely academic," though I'm sure most people on here would balk at me even mentioning it in the same breath as Harvard!

[AbrasaxEos]

For the record, BU's ThD is going the way of the dinosaur that that degree is as well.  The School of Theology is turning it into a PhD.  You'll note the concurrent change for the DRTS into the GDRS (no more theology!). 

 

For the uninitiated, BU has a Religious Studies program (formerly Division of Religious and Theological Studies, now the Graduate Division for Religious Studies) which is administered via the larger university, as well as the School of Theology, which offers the typical MDiv/M* degrees as well as a set fo PhDs in varying disiciplines more closely aligned with the Christian tradition (e.g. you can't really do a "New Testament" PhD in the GDRS, only Ancient Christianity).

[newenglandshawn]

The School of Theology is turning it into a PhD. 

 

Someone in admissions had told me this past fall that that was a strong possibility - and likelihood. So has this been definitively decided upon?

[AbrasaxEos]

Yes, I believe so, if not officially on the website and publications, then at least internally.  It was one of the primary reasons that DRTS changed to GDRS (to distinguish what each respective division is doing), which has gone official on the website and such.

[marXian]

With your clarifications, it is now obvious to me that what you ultimately seek (a location for a presumably western born convert to Islam or western Muslim to be ordained to minister as a Muslim Sheikh / Syed / Mulla / Chaplin AS WELL AS a liberal arts university that offers terminal degree in religion/DMin) does not exist. Hartford seems to be an either or. A western born convert to Islam that I know went to Syria (before the current conflict) to get a recognizable certificate equivalent to ordination in Islam.  They surprisingly did not have a native level reading ability in Arabic necessary to interpret the Quran from its original Arabic. Maybe the Muslim Council in Great Britain can advice you further on this, but I suspect universities in the UK are either or as well. If you are Shi'a, your quest would inevitably lead you to Qom and Najaf.

 

Claremont Lincoln exists (formerly Claremont School of Theology) and offers MAs in Interreligious Studies, Interfaith Chaplancy, and Islamic Leadership. It also has a PhD in Practical Theology which, given these MA options, could probably be geared toward any practical concern you wanted in any religion.

 

Averroes, I would look into it. You sound like exactly the kind of person CLU is looking for. https://claremontlincoln.org/

[Averroes MD]

Checkout Claremont Lincoln University.

 

 

Claremont Lincoln exists (formerly Claremont School of Theology) and offers MAs in Interreligious Studies, Interfaith Chaplancy, and Islamic Leadership. It also has a PhD in Practical Theology which, given these MA options, could probably be geared toward any practical concern you wanted in any religion.

 

Averroes, I would look into it. You sound like exactly the kind of person CLU is looking for. https://claremontlincoln.org/

 

You guys are so right.  That sounds like a really good option for me.  It's even better because my family has relocated to that area.  Thank you for pointing this out.

 

I definitely want to do a master's at HDS first.  I'll check out their PhD's to see if that's an option.