jacib

Two issues here: 1) I actually think sociology is relatively robust right now, in terms of job markets. I know several people (admittedly, sociologists) who advised me to study sociology over anthropology mainly because of the job market. I think its taken relatively seriously in the Academy. It depends on what kind of sociology--very quantative sociologists are refered to by economists and political scientists and psychologists and whatnot relatively often. The social sciences in general, and sociology in particular, seem to be holding their own right now (not expanding like business, health, anything bio, but not contracting like many of the humanities--MSU just got rid of the classics department). The crisis for sociology came earlier, in the 70s when Washington University in St. Louis (WashU/WUSTL) shut down its department and University of Rochester did the same, and Yale University almost did. 2) Sociology, especially again quantitative sociology, when it is applied to "serious subjects" like religion, politics, economics, health/illness, poverty etc. (as opposed to "unserious subjects" like culture*) it is generally taken quite seriously. I have no idea what the political science job market is, except that it is easier to get a non-academic job with a Political Science PhD than with one in Sociology. But in terms of university hiring, Sociology is an area where virtually every institution is going to have a department (sometimes as a Sociology and Anthropology department); I don't know if this is the same in terms of Poli Sci. Social Science, including sociology, has been cited in Supreme Court cases since 1954 (Brown v. Board) if that is any evidence of how seriously it is taken. That is one of the reasons I have been more attracted to Sociology--how seriously it is taken right now. I know a sociologist of health and illness who has been published in medical journals; this might not be common, but I don't think its rare either. Sociologists of religion are again commonly enough published in journals of religion--in fact, most of the recent theories of religion (rational choice, secularization) have come mainly out of sociology. Sociology does have a lot of cross over with other fields because it is a set of methods, really, rather than a field. But I think as far as academics go, it's taken seriously. I don't know, find a political sociologist (maybe one of the guys at Northwestern University) check one of their well-respected books on Amazon and see who cites their work. Jstor, if you have access to it, could be equally useful (for older articles) in seeing who cites what, and in which journals. *Not a jibe at sociology of culture, I think that shits fascinating and its one of the reason why I want to be a sociologist. I spent a spring break devouring all the literature on punk rock.

I feel the same way. Literally, the first time I read the Bible itself was in liberal public high school during a class called "Biblical and Classical Lit", and when I saw "Abram" and "Sarai" for the first time, I thought they were a more accurate transcription of the traditional names. I was actually shocked when story twisted and Abram became Abraham! The thing had power, and I was really attracted to it. Why was it so important, and such. Everything I read about religion fascinated me and I ended up consuming massive amounts of information, on subjects ranging from First Century Heretics to Scientology, from True Pure Land Buddhism to YHWH and his Asherah. I grew up in a secular Jewish household (though we went to Humanistic Jewish Sunday school once a month) and at one point when I mentioned I was considering joining the Rabbinate, my father asked me why and then spent an hour trying to convince me that I should be a social worker instead. It's just the subject for me. It's what I do in my free time, it's what I want to talk about. My GPA in Religion is a full point higher than my GPA not in religion. However, the vagaries of studying religion at the graduate level has led me to want to study religion from the sociological side of the aisle.

If you live in Texas, consider ESL teaching. I've found it really enjoyable (though I'm doing it abroad). It's a good way to start teaching within a month or two (though I have no idea about the job situation).

Fuzzylogician, have you ever read "English Sentences Without Overt Grammatical Subjects" by James McCawley under the pseudonym Quang Phúc Ðông? I think you'd like it.

Northwestern has plenty of political sociologists, as does Berkeley. It'd obviously depend exactly on your project. Northwestern has a lot of people who do Political and Economic sociology. Chicago probably has some too, but I don't know, I didn't look at their sociology department because I was more interested in the resources at their Divinty School. I know nothing about the big state schools besides Berkeley, because they tend not to have religion, but I know many of them have excellent programs and should be examined. I am applying with one undergraduate sociology course in which I got a B+, and perhaps two anthropology courses. I have seen people at elite sociology programs with undergraduate degrees in engineering (okay, one person I definitely noticed), but a sociology undergrad is not a requirement for any program I saw. Social Science backgrounds (including Poli Sci) are "encouraged" but even those are not required. When applying to sociology departments, don't mention that you're also applying to non-sociology departments. They tend to see this as the mark of an "unserious" student who doesn't know what they want to study (a position I disagree with). I am applying with the exact same research project (I literally don't think I changed more than a sentence for the actual proposed research part of my project between the two types of programs, though I changed all of the stuff that came before that part), yet still, this is "unserious". My sociologist father warned me about this, and a guy at Harvard confirmed it. Sociologists tend to think of you joining the field, not you studying a project (several religion programs I applied, on the other hand, boasted of their close ties with other departments, including sociology), so you are expected to be interested in studying and being capable of teaching several subfields of sociology, it seems (you seem to have this covered though). There are exceptions to this sociological purity, Northwestern being one, but it was definitely a different experience applying to the two set of programs, with the two sets of possible advisers having completely different ideas of what a good match is.

My dad is a sociologist at one of the schools you applied to (not on the adcomm) and he emailed tons of colleagues around the country for me asking about GRE scores. I can't find the direct quote, but one of them said "A lot of professors don't fully understand the change from the old analytic section to the new writing section, so a lot of older professors tend to ignore that score completely." When my father got the average scores from programs that don't publish their scores online, only about half even bothered to give the writing score, and most people made little comments about them as if there were two scores, and writing didn't really matter at all. Don't mentally kill yourself if you're fine with your other scores. No where said they used a strict cutoff, and some specifically told my dad they'd let in people with very scores on occasion if everything else was superlative, and I'm sure that this is honest. Also, I can tell you that a person like my dad knows almost every major college, and about it, its programs, where it is, its reputations, some little oddities. I know this because that's all he'd talk about with my friends starting the second semester of our senior year of high school. He'd refer to some of my friends by the name of their school, for example there was Sarah LaSalle, and Anna Brown. A few years out of college and that's still one of the first questions he asks me about every new girl I meet. He knows so many amazingly random things about schools--though he's never worked on the West Coast, he commented on the bike culture around U C Davis (where my current SO grew up) and the strength of Queer Studies at U C Santa Cruz (where she went to college) in the first conversation he ever had with my current squeeze. The point is, if your school does have a sterling reputation and is known for its low grades, I'm sure the admissions committee will take that into account because it's their job to know stuff like that.

Actually, I dont think there is a way to say this in Turkish, "Lütfen, lüften beni kabul ediniz" which means "Please please accept me".... but it sounds almost religious and I'm pretty sure no one would say that... It's a very different university system here anyways, based almost entirely on weighted GPA and one exam that is only given once a year (that's undergraduate... but graduate is similar but I don't know the details) and you apply to a department/program rather than a school. So you're not "accepted here"... you "win/earn" (same word) a university. So in short I really don't know! Oh and the other people: yes I totally agree with you about protecting your anonymity, but I figure that most people tend to post their acceptances and their final decisions, and if I had to debate between two schools, I'd probably end up talking about it here. Since that info would be here, a dedicated person could still figure out exactly who I am based on that web info. Since all of the original questions I had here involved some specific aspect of my study (if I even mentioned something as broad as "modern Islam" or "religion and the state" I'd still probably be the only person in my cohort at every university to study that, and I had exactly questions dealing with how best to study those two topics), I figured it would be a better policy for me personally if I could actually used some details and just try not to say something I would regret later... Before undergrad, my university set up an incoming freshman messages boards (in those innocent, pre-facebook days), and I was a much bigger prick on that thing (oh, youth), but still a person or two I met as an upperclassman would say "hey, I think I remember you from those first year boards..." Yes, I did say somethings that were, let's say, "proverbial demons of my youth" (I was a superhipster and was looking for other superhipsters to hang out with), but I think people understand that we develop and no one held it against me. So, if you do happen to recognize me at a conference years down the line, please say "Hi, I remember you from the boards" and trust that I am not who I was.

İzinimi almadan benden bi fikir araklarsan Allah ceza versin! = May God punish you if you pilfer one idea from me without getting my permission.

Man, I'm also surprised that people are really worried about being "scooped". I guess I've already shared my main research interests elsewhere in the forums (Secularism, Turkey, Religion and the State), so all I can say is, "Good luck learning Turkish before I start churning out brilliant scholarship, you pathetic bunch of potential thieves"! İzinimi almadan benden bi fikir araklarsan Allah ceza versin! Rekabet olmasın, haydi berbar araştıralım. I feel like I already know about the three or so graduate students working on Secularism and Turkey, one of whom I already emailed and was really supportive about me applying to his institution; even with those three, I have only the broadest intersection of issues, but with the two of them whose research project I know well, I don't even have intersections of methodology, never mind ideas. I found one more person working on secularization... of Australian and American education systems in the 19th century. There are probably a few working on Secularism in South Asia, but I can't be sure. I found maybe a dozen more people with Turkish names studying for sociology PhDs, but most of them are working on politics/economics, none of them are touching religion as far as I know. Therefore, it had never occurred to me that stealing ideas could be a problem -- just the opposite, I get super excited whenever I hear the word "secularism" brought up by other PhD candidates and applicants. Granted I work in kind of a small field, but I'm sure in other, slightly larger subfields, there might be more opportunity but how much overlap is there really? Hell, if I here "religion and politics", "modern islam", "Turkey" or "secularism" I get excited. Am I just naive, or is this stealing thing really a big problem? Every single academic I've ever met is super psyched to share their research with anyone who would listen. I mean, I wouldn't want to say much more than I've already said on these boards to avoid sounding pretentiously premature ("Yeah, maybe I haven't done the 'research' yet, but I've already got my brilliant point so you can just sign that little PhD diploma right now, thanks, the rest of this is just going to be formality"). Some professors definitely list their next four projects on their website. Anyway, this reminds me of the Tom Lehrer song ostensibly about Nikolai Lobachevsky that you guys might enjoy. Edit: Okay I now reread the other posts and realize that you said you WEREN'T necessarily worried about stealing, just in general. Fair enough.

Absolutely. Doing very well at a rigorous academic program will absolutely help you earn admittance to other, possibly higher ranked, academic programs.

Man imagine if it was like project runway! And instead of designing a dress, you had a write a paper that you could conference. And instead of a mock runway with three judges, there was a mock dais with three judges... and instead of taking you to the fabric store and saying "You have twenty minutes, get all the materials you need", they took you to the library! And instead of a sewing room, you worked in a windowless computer lab! And the catchphrase instead of like "Auf wiedersehen" was, "I regret to inform you that we are unable to offer you a position this year. Best of luck in all your future endeavors." Every challenge you win, you earn a little bit of research money. And the semi-finalists got into a masters program or something! That show would be so boring, except for all the crying and backbiting. "Omigod, Michael totally checked out the book I needed to sabotage me. What a total b*tch!!" "Sarah doesn't even know how to write proper MLA citations... why is she even here?" "Yeah I think Frederico will make an excellent teacher someday... in high school (hissy sound)." "(Crying) This research assignment requires quantitative methods... but in my field we only use qualitative methods, this just this is just so not fair. (More sobbing. This person is eliminated)."

That's good to hear, I'm really bad at judging what makes me sound like a total prick on the internet! I stared at that post for a while before sending it, "Am I being an asshole? Am I being an asshole? Am I being an asshole?"

I had a dream about being in 8th grade and basically being in the "teacher's helper" for a bunch of 6th graders, but the dream started when everyone was already in class, and me and the other 8th graders were there and it took us a while to figure out we were older than the 6th graders, and then it took us another second to figure out we were supposed to help them. The whole time, we like goofing off and laughing and stuff... whispering and laughing while the teacher was talking, even though the younger students were generally well behaved (though they did ask us questions at first, like who are you, why are you here). It took me a few days to interpret it as subconcious TA anxiety, which is weird because I've already taught adults for two years, and now have been teaching high school students as well as a sprinkling of college graduate for six months without any problem... It was more a weird dream than a nightmare.

I know exactly what you mean.

Since it's a teaching degree, I don't know if funding applies in your case, but if you absolutely feel obliged to offer a reason, just say you're waiting to hear back about other funding packages.

I'd like to amend this question somewhat and ask where you would see your work published. I think that'd give more information about where you see yourself in our broad field. The journals that I sometimes read as an undergrad were Religion, History of Religion, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, and occasionally Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (which is possibly more the direction my career is headed...). To me, except for MTSR, those three are THE big name journals, but I bet a lot of you consider the big name journals to be stuff I've never heard of, and maybe don't know some or all of those journals. Oh and of course AAR's journal... but I never actually read anything from there, I don't think. Also, what professional associations, besides obviously AAR? Anyone else a fan of NAASR? SSSR? I guess to me, the issues aren't just theological vs. historical... I don't know, you guys should check out this article: http://www.as.ua.edu/naasr/Establishingabeachhead.pdf which is a history of NAASR which discusses (especially on the first two pages) a lot of the issues that I feel are more divisive in our field (and part of the reason why I'm applying in other fields).

First of all, I'd recommend talking to people in the Sociology department of your alma mater. Washington has a very well regarded program. No school I've heard of requires an undergraduate degree in sociology, and who knows what difference it makes. I'd say only half the people on this board have a degree from sociology or another social science. That's why you really ought to talk to someone in the program itself. Few people have the opportunity to publish as an undergrad, especially in the humanities and social sciences, so don't worry about that. Good recommendations are universally considered really important; prestigious people obviously have added weight, but anyone who can attest to your superb academic abilities would be great. Seriously, just email the graduate coordinator of UW (maybe in a month when they're less crazy about this round of applicants) and ask. People have been surprisingly open and candid with me.

I know several people who have overall low GPA but great GPA's within their subject, and they were really able to sell it--"I know what I want to do in my life because this is the only thing I get really hyped on" kind of stories. It is possible to sell, absolutely, and you shouldn't feel forever locked out, but I'd imagine a certificate programs with good marks followed a masters with good marks as well as competitive GRE scores will put any adcomm's mind at rest.

Punch them in the clavicle, eh?

What do they care about other departments? Half the professors you meet will be only vaguely aware that other departments exist. The spelling of names in those alleged departments is a minor matter.

U/GPA: 3.28 (3.57 in major, Religious Studies) at usnwr top ten university very little actual social science work ugrad. GRE: q/780 v/800 w/6.0 research interests: Sociology of Religion, Political Sociology, possibly Historical/Comparative Sociology applied in Sociology: Berkeley, Columbia, Yale, Princeton, Northwestern (where I have to change my statement to comparative political sociology because no one does religion...) also applied: several religion programs with quasi social science sub-fields like "Religion and Society" or "Religion and Modernity" or even "Anthropology/Sociology of Religion" Personal note: I like how you felt a need to apologize for a 3.6 GPA, Carolina; I predict that will be within .1 of average for the people who post on this thread. But we shall see...

Yes I also have a six week period, but three of my last four are due on the 1st (actually, one on the 31st, one on the 1st, one on the 2nd) and they are all almost done... I feel. Then the last one on the 15th needs a little work. But after the rush around Dec 15th, its so hard to be motivated!

Secular study of religion.

It is due on the 8th or after, email the departments. See what they say. Some schools will have no idea about you applying to more than one department. Some will only let you apply to one on the online app. Email the one you care about more and ask, "I am very interested in your program, would it reflect poorly on my application if I applied to this other department too?" Tell them what you're interested in their department, tell them the other department you're considering, and let them infer that it's a similar project from a different angle (that's possible, right?). I mean make it clear that you care more about that department. Some people will care, some won't, but some programs definitely would mark you as an "unserious student" if you apply to two programs in two different disciplines.

(Apologies to the original poster for being off topic, your thing is so much improved!) One of my favorite stories I ever heard during undergrad was about Mircea Eliade, the imminent scholar of religion, who was a Romanian escapee who got all of his news from a small Romanian emigree press in Argentina, shipped at the cheapest rate, so literally all of his news was at least 6 weeks behind. And Coyabean, one of my favorite professor in college (actually just an ABD grad student) once explained everything in these proper anthropological terms, but none of us were anthropologists, so no one really knew what he was talking about. Finally this girl in the back of the class said, "Okay, but like what's that all mean?" And then he paused for literally two seconds, and then seemlessly busted into an intricate, comprehensive and totally elucidating analogy to about bringing friends to "da club". I wish I could remember all the details, but it was about the different things Boaz and Malinowski brought to the study of anthropology, and why we should cite and read them all, even if we didn't fully agree with them all (I think that part was related to a friend who can't dance but is the best damn wingman ever running all sorts of interference to cover your ass and introducing you to new people and shit), and what they all actually say. God I wish I could remember it, but needless to say, this is a guy who really inspired me to go into graduate studies. Since him and another professor I had at the same quarter, I have learned the value of a well chosen example.