Duns Eith

Rejected from OSU via email (solicited)

I was thinking an MA thesis should be anywhere between 50 and 100 pages, with the average being about 72. Double spaced. That's my shot in the dark.

Accepted to Ohio U's MA program, w TAship and stipend.

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I have a friend (a quasi-mentor) who just finished his MA in philosophy, had a baby, and decided to wait on the PhD. He will, of course, continue to read and write in philosophy, but he sees no rush in getting into the PhD. He simply recognizes it is not practical, and he thinks the time will allow him to get a better grasp of the the material before trying to publish. He's convinced nothing is worth publication from someone under the age of 40 anyway. P.S. He is perhaps the most well-read guy I know who doesn't have a PhD.

Good points. I will ask some grad students at Program Y as to why they don't chose the thesis track, and whether it factored in their decision to go to the school. (e.g. were they planning on it, but jumped over to the non-thesis track?) That's also a good point. I realize that it will be review briefly; even so, I would certainly benefit from revisiting the same topics as I have taken a pseudo-hiatus while I got my MA in religion. (I say pseudo, because I've been reading philosophy all the while, just not taking courses on it) Thanks. From your standpoint, it sounds like a thesis is the best preparation for PhD, rather than a broad level of coursework. In a PhD there is a simultaneous requirement of breadth and depth. I think any way the MA can help prepare you for either aspect (ideally, both), the better situated you are. You seem to be landing on the side that, if you had to choose just one, choose depth. For clarity, Program Y most students don't, ...I haven't verified whether Program X most don't do the thesis yet. I am sorry I am not revealing which program is which. It would remove confusion. In both cases, the thesis takes 6 credit hours out of the 30 needed to graduate with the MA. I am unsure, as many have mentioned, whether LORs would be significantly different. My guess is that the biggest difference is that one LOR would be outstanding. Maybe that's justification enough. I can't find anywhere it says how long a thesis is typically. I'd have to ask. If by credit 1 = 10-15 pages, then 6 = 60-75 pages. Both programs require 6 credits for thesis, and even allow more. My senior thesis/capstone seminar in my undergrad was 27 pages, without biblography. Your rule of thumb sounds really, really helpful. That might be my single question I ask at every aspect of decision (rank, faculty, reputation, course choices, thesis/non-thesis, location, conferences/colloqium availability, etc.). For me, the MA is an end in itself (hence my desire to write a thesis), but it is also being used as a means of spring board to PhD. I actually assumed going into this whole process I would be adapting my thesis as a WS. But given what other people have said made me question how reasonable I can expect to adapt it, while I am, after all, only half-way through writing that thesis by the time I am submitting applications. Many of the programs need the apps in by early December the year prior. I think this factor is very, very important to the decision. That is hyperbole to distortion, and I actually don't think this was helpful. In my case, the thesis track is actually 1/6 of either program (6/30 credits). Actually, at Program X non-thesis requires 33 credits; Program Y both are 30 credits. That said, while it makes a bigger difference than you are suggesting, your points were helpful. Huh. Interesting. Thanks. Thanks P.S. Thanks everyone for your replies. This discussion has been pretty good and helpful for me thus far.

First off, thanks for sharing that. It sounds really difficult. Personally, if I had massive debt like that and wanted kids, I would jump out now. My backup industry/plan B is IT -- I've been doing it concurrently while in my MA (for religion) for 3½ years now. That would knock out the debt pretty quickly if I ran full-on-ahead. I took on some debt on for an MA, and it wasn't wise but we've already started paying it off and it is < 11k in principal. My wife and I want kids in a couple years; maybe 3 years. But if I had over 50k in debt* before the PhD, I could not see myself doing it. If you pursued your plan B for a while, pay off your debt and such, could you reasonably get back in? Maybe the answer is No. * I am pretty sure if I am figuring your interest correctly, your principal is far, far above 40k.

I'll be back in a bit, but here's the placement records (as I calculate them) for Program Y. They have a really good high percentage of acceptance to PhD, but I found the percentage that actually applied for phil programs from their MA interesting. Program Y Year Gradt'd Applied %Applied %Placed 2014 8 3 37.5% 100.0% 2013 5 3 60.0% 100.0% 2012 9 2 22.2% 100.0% 2011 5 5 100.0% 100.0% 2010 8 4 50.0% 100.0% 2009 6 4 66.7% 100.0% 2008 6 5 83.3% 100.0% 2007 6 3 50.0% 100.0% 2006 14 5 35.7% 60.0% 2005 5 3 60.0% 100.0% This suggests me that my original assumption (that most take the thesis track) needs to be questioned. --- Program X I cannot find how many in a cohort applied for PhD. I'll ask some grad students. I checked the schools that people got into: graduates of X got into somewhat better schools than Y, but X doesn't have as high of a placement rate as Y. Year Applied Placed %Placed 2014 3 3 100% 2013 8 7 88% 2012 6 6 100% 2011 7 7 100% 2010 12 9 75% 2009 12 6 50% 2008 13 13 100% 2007 6 6 100% 2006 No data No data No data 2005 No data No data No data

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article12601562.html Sounds like she's gone.

Thanks for the replies. I need to think about this some more. But I want to remind that as far as adcoms go, they have nearly the same placement record. MSoB: I will reply later; your post is really helpful.

True, but this doesn't apply in this case. This is what I have been thinking. That, and I want to write a thesis, as I think I would be better prepared. I guess I am just not excited about taking basically the same courses (albeit deeper) all over again -- the course descriptions aren't even covering different philosophers than I already covered. It would be kind of sadpanda.jpg if I wasn't enthusiastic about my program.

Of course, there is the option with going to Program X and go against the flow by taking the thesis track...

I got accepted to some terminal MA programs that are nearly identical in ranking/reputation/placement record. Their financial packages are nearly the same, when all the math is figured (tuition, fees, cost of living, etc.). They both have thesis and non-thesis tracks. I spoke with one of my undergrad profs who said that I should definitely do the thesis track. This is what I was intending to do, as I think it would better prepare me for the depth of a PhD dissertation. I even have some ideas on what I might write on. Program X has courses in topics I am interested in and would fill some minor gaps in my education, but currently no one at that program is doing the thesis track. Their faculty say that the students find it "too difficult," and would rather spend time working on conferences/presenting talks/making excellent term papers. (to be used as writing samples for the PhD) Program Y has a thesis track, and it is my understanding that thesis is common. Even non-thesis track defend their best term paper by an oral exam. But Y's courses are basically a grad level repetition of my philosophy major (corresponding titles, figures covered, required courses, etc.), with only 5-6 classes that I haven't taken a corresponding course in undergrad -- 2 of which I would be actually be interested in taking. All other things being equal (placement, reputation, faculty, finances, location, etc.), which would you go with? Goal: I am intending to go onto a PhD (prolly applying to: Michigan, Notre Dame, Toronto, UW Madison, Ohio State, IU Bloomington, Purdue, UWO)

You cannot lose an offer by trying to negotiate. You might seem rude or pretentious, but it depends on tact. Either way, those financial packages are really good!

Congrats!

Bingzactly. My guess is that is why you applied to TAMU: for Stephen Daniel, the pres. of IBS.

My wait for them is slightly agonizing. The application center still says "Pending." There is but one post on our results page for being on the waitlist for OSU, and that was a month ago. I emailed LD and she hasn't gotten back to me -- it's been a week. Even so, they are my top choice. And LD is one of my major reasons for wanting to go there. Any word you receive on this helps me too.

Given the rest of what you said, this sentence suggests the opposite of what you meant. Correct? If so, I agree

I asked how far up on the list, and PD said I'm about 25th. I thought this was a "relatively short" waiting list... He told me that it can happen, but it has only happened once in the last 6 or 7 years...

Fearing for the worst with OSU. ...>_> ... Anyone offered or waitlisted by Purdue yet planning to turn down, please let 'em know! Thanks!

Establishment is right on, I think. Also, you mentioned funding for the MA, but I don't know about your PhD -- is does your offer for the PhD include full funding (i.e. full tuition remission + stipend)? Do you have a TA-ship or a fellowship? If so, I would all the more heartily say, Go for the PhD. If you decide to transfer out, you will at least have made more connections (and letters of recommendation) for future academic pursuits.

Suppose these were all acceptances, how would you prioritize them? Madison Purdue USF Temple Wayne ? Or what do you think? I can't remember what you're going into.

I just got waitlisted as well. Someone asked whether they had a good chance, and apparently it is a "relatively short" list. Whatever that means, this could bode well for us.

Congrats!

I just got my acceptance email this evening from WMU. I dunno if your decline helped me, but in case it did, thanks!