sacklunch

STEM fields are completely different. Many (most in some fields) students in the humanities must get an M* before beginning an MA/PhD. I had four years of graduate work before beginning (2 M*) and will receive yet another M* after another two years of coursework toward my PhD! This is somewhat common in my field, hilariously. In response to the OP. If the M* is respected in your field I think it's fine. Otherwise I would either wait until you can move to complete an MA or possibly take individual courses at said local school (though this will no doubt screw funding possibilities). I wouldn't waste your time with the online route unless that specific degree is respected (no idea, English folks can chime in).

Age is an important factor for admission committees, too. It might help your application if you reapply a year out of school. As the others said, you are far from 'old.' In fact you will be one of the younger (if not youngest) student in your (hopeful) cohort. I'll be well into my 30's when I finish my PhD. I'm glad I'm doing it a bit 'older.' I honestly don't think I could have handled it when I was in my early 20's.

It really depends on what you want to do after you're done. You say you want to 'continue on' but I'm not sure if you mean in a related career or attempt PhD applications. If it's the latter it really depends on your subfield. Overall, yes, Duke has the better reputation. On the purely 'academic' side of things Duke (RS) is often ranked very well (for example tied at no.1 on http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/ as 'according to scholars'). Durham is nice, too. Though I hear great things about Atlanta, eh?

Good points ^. Times have changed. Perhaps if we were still learning Greek, Latin, German, and so on in grade school onward we would be on a similar schedule. Further, the growth of graduate divinity schools ballooned (and is still, perhaps) in the mid-late 20th century, making M* degrees the norm before moving on to a PhD. Occasionally you might see a remnant of these times in an old timer's CV, listed as 'BD' (Bachelor of Divinity), without the fluff of multiple M*. The shitty part about all of these M* programs is many of their students have no formal background, thus forcing the departments to lower the incoming requirements of 'graduate' coursework, making them basically undergraduate courses. So, if you are coming into an M* with a strong foundation in religion/theology/whatever, you will very likely be discouraged by all of the 'intro X' required classes (thankfully there are ways to opt out of these courses in some programs!).

Ideally what do you want to do after the MDiv? Did Candler offer you any funding? Did Duke say anything about (possible) funding? If funding package are not that different I see no reason to not head to Duke. This is three years of your life. Notwithstanding huge financial woes, you should go where you want if given the option.

Threads such as this are a good reminder why it's generally a bad idea to post too much (any??) personal information.

I haven't heard much about their financial situation in the recent year, but prior (as you said) the GTU has been known for not offering full tuition to its PhD students. I know one PhD student there and this was the situation with his/her admission. On the other hand their tuition is much lower than most of the private theological schools, thus their lack of funding isn't a complete deal breaker (e.g. Claremont). As for their selectivity: their funding (or lack thereof) raises their admission rate from what I understand. At least in my own area (biblical reception history) they have lost a substantial resource, namely their formal connection with UC-Berkeley (previously their biblical studies PhD was jointly offered by GTU and UCB). I have no clue why the break occurred, perhaps a lack of interest from both departments or because their 'academic rigor' has declined. I suspect it was something internal and not the latter (they have great faculty, I think). I would suggest you email some of their current doctoral students in your area of interest and just ask. This is fairly common practice and should not be seen as rude.

Given HDS' high acceptance rate (they say it hovers between 40-60%) alongside the fact that you are clearly very (statistically) unique, I would say the chances of you getting in are pretty damn good.

I too have heard good things regarding Levenson from a current doctoral student. I've heard he's really funny, too.

Search the forum for stats. If the department even requires the GRE for an MTS/MAR, it's not a huge determiner of your chances of admission in an M*, save a program like ND's MTS/MA-ECS. You can also find average GPA on the forum, or even on some department websites. It's worth noting that the self reporting you see on this forum may not be representative of the applicant pool. Applicants with great GRE/GPA marks tend to easily reveal their score online. There are others, too, who may post their scores in order to gauge their chances (e.g. worried about their statistically low score and fishing). These 'hot' and 'cold' marks are somewhat misleading.

That puts them at 4%, which sounds about right for the big names listed above. I see the possible confusion about the second M*. Some programs, while enrolled as a PhD student, award their students an M* after two or so years. Some even give their students two M* on their way (I think Yale used to do this or still does with the MA+MPhil...anyone?). Others only award the PhD while still requiring coursework (this seems to be more commonplace in other branches of the humanities and almost all science PhD's as far as I know do not receive an M* en route). What we are discussing here is two M* before being admitted into a PhD program. So in some programs you then would eventually have 3 or even 4 M* before you actually get your PhD. Mind you none of these M* really matter once you are in/out of the PhD program (or so I'm told once you are done). This is why the field is so risky, emotionally/psychologically and fiscally. While I do know a couple students who have 2 M* without any debt, most of us have our fair share (some far too much...*tear*).

Welcome to the field! . But, really, this is the reality. When and if you apply to Yale you will be applying against students who have 3-4 yrs of Hebrew (some with modern), Greek, Aramaic/Syriac, French, German, and so on and so on. FWIW I applied to Yale (PhD, RS) with I think a lot more language prep than 'required' or 'average' (when I applied I had 3-4 yrs of Hebrew, 5-6 Greek, 2 German, 2 Latin, 2 Aramaic/Syriac) and I didn't get so much as an email, except of course the rejection! BUT I do know someone in Yale's NELC who 'only' had two years of biblical Hebrew before beginning his PhD (though said person had German, French, Greek, and I think some Latin?). It's certainly possible to get in with the 'required' amount, but you should know what sort of competition you will face. In the end I ended up a top program, so it all worked out. Though if I had not focused so heavily on the language aspect of my application I truly don't think I would have had multiple offers. Should this all cause you to rethink your proposed plans? Maybe. It worked out for many of us, but the majority, statistically, do not 'make it.' However, the fact that you are here asking these sorts of questions means you are likely a more competitive applicant. As one of the above posters said, a great number of the applicants applying may not even stand a chance. There will be plenty who apply without the 'required' two years of Hebrew, many who have the two years, and perhaps 20% (this is a total guess...anyone?) who have the 3-4+. It's that top 20% you will have to contend with to make the cut and, as it was also mentioned above, those applicants often come from the big name programs (i.e. Yale, Harvard, Duke, Chicago, Emory, Vandy, PTS, and so on).

Pathos is simply stating what most of us had to do, namely, get two M* degrees. While Yale says it 'requires' two years of classical Hebrew I wonder if they in fact only take students with at least 3-4 years? It's also important to know (and you may already have heard) that Yale's NELC program is having problems, so I imagine you would want to apply to the RS Department (as far as I know NELC isn't even taking HB students right now). If you can do two years of biblical Hebrew at PC, among other language work, there is no reason to leave, especially if the tuition is cheap. I should also mention, and this is personal bias, that many of the Protestant seminaries/divinity schools teach classical languages differently than many of their Catholic counterparts. The latter, in part (I think) because most students simply have no interest in biblical studies, oftentimes seem to focus more on philology (such as a classics dept.). I have heard disheartening reports from many friends that studied at the big name Prot. schools who have criticized their language courses as 'too pastoral' and so on. When you have hundreds of students interested in learning 'a bit' of Koine or biblical Hebrew for their (eventual) roles as clergy the language courses are going to be structured accordingly.

You will soon encounter (ad nauseam) the popular response: It's all about fit. This means that your interests have to be closely matched to whatever program you are interested in, not just applying to good schools that make the popular rankings. This means that a 'no name' school to someone may be a 'top school' in your subfield. You can only know what school fits where after hours and hours of research and reflection on your own work. Even at the 'low ranked' schools you are still looking at fairly low chances of admission (less than 20%), while as the poster above said the (traditionally) 'top schools' are even more rigorous (around 5% I suspect). Those admitted will have 'good stats', but what you will find is those with the 'best stats' on paper are not always the ones admitted. Again, it's about fit. As the great advice above suggests, scout around on the forum and read a shit ton to get your bearings.

You will hear about them if you want to or not. There will be frequent emails (accepting papers at upcoming X conference), students in program (are you going to X conference in the fall?), and professors (you may want to write your paper for this course for this upcoming conference), and so on. You will quickly learn what conferences are popular in your subfield. Give it six months and you will be tired of hearing about conferences.

While legally this may be the case here, I can almost guarantee, as the OP's adviser wrote, that some departments will discuss his/her age. In my related field I have heard of this 'conversation' occurring past the age of 35 or so. It's really nothing personal, but for their investment (upwards of 500k at many top schools) they want to take on someone who can 'maximize' the most years possible. Whether or not this is horseshit is another question. As the others said, don't mention it in your Statement. Don't treat is as a 'personal' story (as many have no doubt already told you), but as a sort of intellectual genealogy. Stick to your academic credentials and only mention something 'personal' if it pertains to your stated interests.

Quick note: check out Middlebury's summer intensive Arabic program. While the cost is seemingly substantial most students get 50%+ off tuition (I got 50% my first year and 100% off my second, though not studying Arabic). Middlebury also just got a 4.5 mil donation specifically for the language schools. So I suspect this money will begin to be used next summer (I assume this means more free funds for students).

^ Some excellent points made by theo. One that stands out is how 'confessional' the school/department is and to what extent you are/are not. If you are secular (as many of us are), doing an MTS at ND, Duke, and maybe Yale (MAR) would not be a great time. You can make it work (I know...), but you would feel much more at home at a place like HDS, Chicago, or (better yet) in a RS department. Though, as theo also rightly points out, your interests/methodologies/etc. will be greatly influenced by whatever sort of department you land in--secular and confessional alike! I'm just trying to say if you want to actually do 'theology' then a 'confessional' department is not such a bad thing! The reason I mentioned Duke's MA in RS is because it would allow you to ride both 'sides' (studying in both RS and Div) without the burden of having to check a bunch of boxes off for your degree requirements.

The word on the street is the NT faculty do not like/work with one another. Apparently the dean decided to freeze anymore incoming NT students (PhD, at least). Their entire program has been declining for quite some time, I think. You would be much better served in the NT area at almost any of the other big name schools, including most of the Catholic ones (ND, BC, Marquette).

Your GRE scores are well above average for an MTS. Don't waste your time retaking the test. Since you're an outsider it's important to realize that almost all the big name MTS/MAR degrees are fairly easy to get into as long as you have decent states. Because these programs are often theologically orientated they cater to students with no formal background. This both makes their admissions lighter and (for some) unfortunately bloats their curricula with a lot of 'gen ed' coursework. Though if you are indeed new to the field this may not be such a terrible thing. It's just important to know that at places like Yale Div you will be one of hundreds of students in your department. This is almost always not the case in philosophy MA programs (and most other humanities M* programs as the above poster already mentioned). I know nothing about Marquette, for instance, but I imagine they are smaller and thus might be more focused on their MA students. It all really depends on what you want to study. If you have an interest in say American Christianity, doing an MTS at a place like Yale would be a great idea. On the other hand if you want to study anything ancient, their MTS would likely end up being the first step in a long journey to a PhD program. Programs such as Yale's simply won't allow you to take enough courses to prepare you for a PhD without having any training beforehand. Moreover, their MAR concentrated program, while much better and more focused for its students, generally only accepts students with strong backgrounds in that particular field. For example, their biblical studies/ancient history related MAR concentrates will certainly require incoming students to have formal training in Greek and/or Latin (Hebrew, and so on). ND is always very competitive because they offer full tuition and a small stipend (I think like 5k a year?). You should still apply as it seems they often take students without formal training, especially those who have relevant coursework (i.e. you). If you are interested in anything ancient you should also apply to their MA in ECS (Early Christian Studies) as it will allow you to do a lot of language work necessary for doctoral apps (including their summer language courses, which are free for students, too). I would look at Harvard simply because they tend to offer more free money than the others (excluding ND). Their MTS also has fairly light admissions (most of the big name MTS degrees hover around 50% accept rate, I believe). Possible issues with Duke Div's MTS: 1) They only accept like 20 MTS students a year, making admission more competitive, perhaps closer to somewhere like ND; 2) Because of no.1 alongside the fact that they accept tons of Mdiv students per yer, many having no formal training at all and accepted under much lighter admission standards, means that your classes will be filled with students not interested in academia; 3) the MTS is super bloated with requirements making it nearly impossible to get enough electives to pursue certain interests (i.e. languages); 4) they rarely give out full rides. I think like 2 or so MTS students get a full tuition scholarship a year and the others get like 25% (much lower than somewhere like Yale). You would be much better off applying to Duke's MA in Religious Studies because 1) they only accept 5-10 students a year, thus a lot of individual attention; 2) every student receives a minimum of 50% off tuition and now are giving several full rides per year; 3) students are only required to take one class as part of the degree and the rest can be pursued in RS, Philosophy, Classics, and so on, as long as it relates to the study of religion. Don't waste your time with Duke's MTS when the MA will prepare you for academia by allowing you the freedom to tailor your own program, save money, and get the attention you need. good luck.

From my understanding the admission standards at the big name (e.g. Oxbridge) European schools for M* degrees are much lighter for American students. We are cash cows and they know it. In my limited experience I have never heard of an American student (I would guess I have known 20 or so students that have applied and been admitted to some sort of M* at Oxbridge, etc.) being denied admission to such schools for an M* in my field (ancient history). Philosophy is not my field, so disregard my suggestions accordingly! . I have no idea what the admission stats for an MA at places like Tufts, Georgia State, UMSL, and so on, but I imagine they are somewhat more competitive (at least lower than 50% acceptance rate), or no? Of course getting into one of those programs would be preferable to what I'm suggesting. But I figured I would mention the possibility of access to (good?) faculty abroad where it is possibly easier to gain admission (or as you said there may be no faculty of interest for him/her at such places!), as well as significantly cheaper at certain schools. cheers

Totally agree. Though if the top school graduates (PhD) are having a hard time getting jobs, I don't think I would want to try my luck with a low-ranked MA. At least the former (at a top school) guarantees a salary for the next 5-6 years (pay which is much higher than what many adjuncts are making!). If I end up working at Walmart after my (well-ranked) PhD, oh well. Maybe we can get lucky and stock shelves together!!

^ Your points are well received about the OP pursuing a second BA. Though as someone else mentioned, the possibility of getting into even a decent MA in philosophy with that GPA is not high. With that lackluster BA GPA and a low-ranked MA the opportunity of getting into a decent PhD program is even more unlikely. You're right that s(he) may be able to teach at a community college with the MA in hand. But even that is a pretty shitty opportunity given the fact that s(he) will most likely be part time and essentially making what a Walmart employee brings home Another option is getting a BA and/or MA abroad. Places such as KU Leuven cost like 1k US a year and I believe many of the big name European schools can be funded through US loans.

Talk to people in the field. See what is actually competitive for those PhD programs. If you need the two degrees to get into Columbia, then it may be worth it. A good way to gauge what sort of background a department prefers is to look through a lot of CV's online (academia.edu for example). This would give you a much better idea than asking on this forum (there isn't a DH section).

Go back and get a second BA a different (and perhaps better) school. You may be limited on what loan money you qualify for, but it's worth checking into, especially if you qualify for instate tuition.