sacklunch

Van Rompay is teaching this next year and then he is done. He hasn't taken a student in several years because of this. Clark is also gone, as you mentioned. Apply accordingly.

Because ND's MTS (and their ECS MA and Classics MA) is totally funded + a small stipend it is very competitive, more so than any of the other big name MTS programs. Though beware if you are in ND-Theology and are not Christian you may want to end yourself. The brutal weather and small town does not help either.

^ Yes, yes, yes. In the OP's case quickly gaining proficiency in the ancient languages is absolutely the most crucial part of the program s(he) completes. The program's 'prestige' will matter very little if s(he) is only able to complete two years of Koine and nothing else. An 'insignificant' state school program that allows one to study almost entirely languages may just give him/her the edge to get into a great program. Don't be fooled by the fancy bullshit. Our field is ruthless with its language requirements and without a solid foundation your app will quite simply see the trashcan. YOU GOT DIS!

^^ I'll answer here instead of the other thread! Yup, that's it, I think. Well that and many Div students are cash cows. While some students are getting substantially aid, many (most?) are paying out the ass. The mainline divinity schools have loads of faculty and resources and they need support!. I have heard it over and over again over the years: "But it's Harvard!" Meh. Don't get me wrong, it's great. But you are one out of a hundred+ MTS in just one year. Do HDS students fare better than Oregon MA students in their doctoral apps? How would we test this...? Because places like HDS, YDS, and DDS are so damn big I think their success rate is often exaggerated. I'm not saying you can't do incredibly well at these places. Far from it! I am merely pointing out that you/they are one of countless students planing a similar (uncertain) future. Those small programs like Oregon (or a smaller private option like Duke's MA in RS), by accepting less than 10 MA students a year, can generally funnel more attention into their MA students. I have done both and the latter is preferable any day IMHO.

YDS' acceptance rate, like all the mainline divinity schools, is high, around 50% +/- year to year. It would be more difficult to get into an MA in religious studies at many good state school programs. In short: 1) you not having majored in theology is not a problem (and not that uncommon even for MAR/MTS folks) and 2) your stats are above average. Your odds are good.

Well said! Though I think those of us in late antiquity (esp. those of us who work in the 'East') have more rigorous requirements. I work in reception of the HB in the late antique East, which requires one to not only be proficient in biblical Hebrew and it's later attestations (Aramaic/Syriac), but also Greco-Latin sources (biblical recensions). This requires the 'full rainbow' of antique languages and is a bit extreme for most students coming into a doctoral program. One interested in the (Greek) NT may in fact only need half of these languages before beginning. Regardless I still think it is absolutely crucial you pursue another M* that will allow you to chiefly study the classical languages. Even if you have another M* from an ivy, without a strong foundation in the languages, your application will simply not be competitive (given your interests!). Choose a program accordingly!!

I would still be weary of an MDiv. While some programs may allow 'wiggle room' many MDiv programs are still fairly slim with their elective options. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to get to intermediate-advanced in one ancient language, but the ability to do so in 2 or 3, as well as one modern language, seems a bit unlikely. Not only that, but you will most likely not able to take classical Greek (101) in a school's classics department because it isn't 'graduate level' (and yet it will no doubt be harder than 'Koine 701'). Vandy may very well be an exception, though. I still think you would be better off pursuing an MTS/MAR or an M* from a good state school, but as the others have noted funding is (sadly) always better for MDiv programs. Apply far and wide but just be sure to read the fine print on what each program allows for language courses and so on (a problem that plagues MTS programs, too!).

FWIW I was rejected from the MARc in 2nd Temple. I had a decent amount of both Greek and Latin at the time. I remember John Collins telling me in an email that he likes students in this concentrate to able to read unpointed Hebrew before coming in! Since I didn't have any Hebrew at the time I'm pretty sure my app was tossed in the trash. In hindsight I should have applied to the general.

KU's program may honestly be more competitive than HDS or YDS (MAR/MTS). Shoot for the best programs, mate! I wouldn't waste my time with Claremont or Loyola; they don't even have enough money for their doctoral students!

^ Great! You seem particularly well prepared already! You should have no problem securing admission at one of those great programs!

^ You're right. There are plenty of programs that would prepare one for (possible) placement at a TT text-focused school. The real kicker is finding a program that will allow you to focus almost entirely on studying languages, which is somewhat rare. This is why I didn't attend programs such as Vandy/Emory's MTS because they only allow their MTS students to take a couple classes (for credit applied to the degree) in languages. Many of the big name divinity schools also only offer Koine Greek, which is quite honestly certainly a 'joke' compared to what you would be required to learn in a Greek 101 course in a reputable Classics Dept.

I'm also from the religion side of things. It's important to recognize the differences in admission between somewhere like YDS and a top (i.e. funded) Classics M*. From what I understand (I was in a similar situation after my first masters) the top funded classics programs are much more competitive than any of the big name Divinity Schools. As you know no doubt already know places like Yale and Harvard hover around 50-60% acceptance rate in their Divinity Schools (though the MARc is an exception, of course), which compared to almost any other M* program at such schools is insanely high. The requirements for admission to a TT classics M* generally require advanced proficiency in Greek and/or Latin (3+ yrs) and intermediate + in the other (2+ yrs). Koine Greek will not cut it nor will ecclesiastical Latin. Off the top of my head I believe WUSTL's program is funded and excellent, as is KU's, Notre Dame's, U Minnesota (a joint program between NELC and Classics), and there has been recent talk that Wisconsin-Madison's Semitics Dept. is joining with Classics, too. It will also be helpful to hear of your interests. Classics Depts tend to be a lot smaller than places like YDS and their programs are accordingly more specific (or disparate). cheers

Ab, You're right to point out that my experience is limited. I am merely relating my own experience, which has, without exception, only accepted students with at least one M* (at my current school). You also rightly point out that if one comes from a TT UG school, s(he) may have an easier time getting into a good program. We all know the biggest factor keeping out applicants is (in any text focused subfield) language prep. If one majored in classics/biblical languages in college then I have no doubt that one M* (perhaps no?) would be enough to get into a TT program. I do know several folks with one M* at TT schools, but none in my current program. I also want to emphasize that it's not so much that one needs two+ M* to be a competent PhD student at a TT school, but that because the competition is increasingly more prepared many of us have sought several advanced degrees beforehand. Another reason is that many applicants having an MDiv must go for the ThM or another M* because their MDiv focused too much on fufilling other requirements (ministry, general courses, and so on....ad nauseam), they often must complete another degree to establish their competency in not only the requisite languages, but also advanced courses relevant to their proposed research. That said, if you know you want to go on to doctoral work do not pursue the MDiv. Either finish an MTS or (perhaps better) complete an MA at a more research oriented RS and/or Classics Dept.

I would avoid the UK programs if possible. Unless there are some specific faculty in their program there is no reason why they would be better than any of the TT US M* programs, notwithstanding funding. There are exceptions to doctoral students in NT/EC in the US, but almost all of them come from the big US schools and the occasional student you see from abroad usually is 1) an EU citizen and many 2) come from Oxford/Cambridge (Oxbridge). Lotza, I do not know a single doctoral student who came from their BA into a PhD program in NT/EC (I'm in a TT program, for what it's worth). Further, almost every student I know in this area has 3-5 years of M* work (i.e. 2 masters) before beginning their PhD. Because the European M* are so much more research based, you would be better off pursuing something like an MTS and then going abroad for a more research focused degree before applying to PhD programs (then you would have your languages a bit more sorted, etc.).

Your best bet is to find a place with free parking, such as a driveway in a house or something. I was lucky to find something like this when I was in Boston and I never had to worry about parking on the street (even if you do find street parking you will have to move your car often for street cleaning!). Honestly you won't need a car anyways. It will cost you a shit ton of money and might only offer you a random trip to the grocery store/taco bell here and there.

It will likely be something the committee brings up, particularly so if you point out your age in your SOP. I wouldn't even mention it. Doing so may also trigger the committee to think you are too aware of this 'shortcoming', inasmuch as it may hinder your own progress midway throughout the program. I'm at a T1 school and I have heard from several people (including faculty) over the years say that an applicant did not get in because of their age. They are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in their doctoral students and they want your future work to make their department shine. Seeing as your age isn't 'relevant' for the style of an SOP, I would not address it. I finished school a bit later than 'normal', although still much earlier than you. I did not mention any of my pre-college activities simply because they were completely irrelevant with regards to my (then) proposed doctoral work. cheers

^ Kinda agree. I really enjoyed digging through departmental websites....hehe. I'm not sure how popular it is in your field, but academia.edu is a good place to look, too. Once you set up your profile you can add specific areas of interest and the site will recommend scholars. Plus you can find a ton of graduate student CV's to dig through and get a good idea of what sort of prep/students they like!

Haha! Wait, this isn't the philosophy sub-forum...is it?!

It's sad that the audience now connects 'worst' with 'lowest paying'. What is the telos of college...?

Depends on how you learn, I think. For some, the similarities between Greek and Latin may cause confusion; others may find them beneficial. The same applies to Coptic and Greek. At least for me, I always found the different alphabets a way to compartmentalize their differences (and nuance their similarities). To your question, I would say, yes, absolutely, do them simultaneously. Because of your interests it is crucial you show competency in both Greek and Latin. If it were me I would consider doing all three at once, but I understand that may be a bit overkill...! I have done Greek, Latin, and Hebrew/Aramaic/Syriac all in once semester and it wasn't too bad, though I had a strong/decent foundation in all of them beforehand. If it makes you feel better this fall I may be doing advanced coursework in Greek and Aramaic/Syriac, while beginning Coptic and classical Ethiopic.

Greek, Greek, and more Greek. You already have a decent foundation for Latin, which will easily improve along with your Greek training (similarities). Unless you are very focused on the Latin patristics, move on. Coptic is something you can pick up in one semester, especially (as Abrasax said) once your Greek is decent. If you do not get your Greek up to speed I truly don't think your application will be taken seriously, at least in LA programs. I'm at a top LA program for what it's worth (though I do more 'Jewish' things). Those of us in LA are actually sort of expected, I think, to have a bit more language coursework than those in biblical studies (at least among many of the NT students I know). We cannot get away with only having Koine, as Abrasax also prudently noted, but should have a good working knowledge of Attic. Further, if you hope to do any work on Jewish and Christian discourse you are going to need to work on Hebrew/Aramaic/Syriac. I know some students who don't have a ton of Hebrew in LA, but with the competition I think it will hurt you in your applications. It is unfortunate that you will 'only' have Greek 101 on your transcript, but I have to believe that most programs realize that Classical Greek 101 is better/harder than Koine 701. The latter is often a misnomer and is only labeled 'graduate' because divinity schools/professional schools must list their courses higher for their students to receive credit. I have been in both types of courses and I can say without a doubt the classical 101 course will better suit you. In short, having a solid foundation in several languages is better than a smattering of many. They will be (I think) impressed by your attention to mastering your main languages over time and not attempting to find some high level class that feigns competency, which unfortunately is all too common at the big name divinity schools (e.g. I once sat in on a 'advanced' Greek course in a big divinity school that was labelled 800-something 'Hellenistic Greek', but turned out to be a second year Koine course where the students had not yet been introduced to indirect discourse, the optative, and so on). Quality over quantity, basically.

It depends on your specific interests. 'Ancient Med./Near Eastern religion' covers a ton of languages. I suppose the Christian realm may require less (maybe no) Hebrew, though again it depends on your interests (say you're interested in Jewish parallels, reception/appropriation of the HB in early Christianity, and so on). I think most of the competition is going to have 2-3 years + of two main languages, in your area that would maybe be Greek (not just koine!) and Latin. Though again your subfield may change all this and your previous study of Arabic may indicate an interest more toward the East, so Aramaic/Syriac may be very useful (though much less focused on before beginning a PhD it seems, largely due to advanced courses). Beyond the two advanced level ancient languages I think having one modern language down is important, too, German preferably (you already have some Arabic, so that's great!). Showing these languages in your writing sample is a great way to demonstrate competency.

Briefly, most of the applicants in that subfield are going to have one to two M* degrees before applying to the MA/PhD at both Rice and Columbia. It's worth applying, I think, if the programs tend to take students straight from UG (as do many fields outside of religion). You might check Rice's academia.edu profiles (look for CV's): https://rice.academia.edu/Departments/Religious_Studies It seems (not surprisingly) that everyone has 1 to 2 M* before beginning the MA/PhD at Rice (esp. in ancient related). Same for Columbia: https://columbia.academia.edu/Departments/Religion In short, head over to one of the big name Divinity schools or a funded MA in religion. Also it goes without saying that that subfield requires a substantial amount of language work completed before beginning a doctoral program. cheers

FWIW, I think he is applying to a second M* program. This is going to change the type of SOP he writes, I think.

Let the recent work speak for itself. If your letter writer(s) can speak to your lackluster UG grades that would be best, I think. This would give an outside look at your past without looking like you're apologizing. You have good marks from your MTS, too, which should assuage most fears of your UG.