Armadilla

GUYS! Just got an email asking for an interview from one of my POIs at Berkeley! I´m so happy at the moment I don´t even care that he asked me if I´ve applied for outside fellowships for graduate study (I´m an international so I highly doubt I´ll get in nevertheless) but I couldn´t care less right now, Berkeley loves me!
 
By the way to any other Berkeley applicants this seems more like an informal thing, it doesn´t look like any formal interview stage.

I would definitely apply and then try to meet them at the national conference. Or, right after their talk and during the Q&A session, dare to ask them a relevant question (and I am sure you can nail this one pretty easily since you are probably very familiar with their publications and research) and then, during a "mingling" or a perfect "networking moment" (a.k.a Hors d'Oeuvres, make sure you go for a nice Chilean cab!!!Malbec will do too!A great conversation starter.J/K), it will be way easier to start a conversation with that person because you have already asked her a question and showed interest.

As an American, I find that, on average, international students are more interesting to talk to than other strangers because there are more obvious things to talk about: Where are you from, how long have you been here, how long was your flight, what do you think of American food, etc. And then I can share things I know about the region with more confidence that it will be new information. Especially in science/engineering fields, international students are pretty common, as are international professors* so you might not stand out as much as you fear.

That being said, if I hear a group of students talking in another language, I assume they want to keep doing so, becuase I know how exhausting it can be to talk in a foreign lanugage (in their case, English) so I won't initiate conversation. If I'm not sure how proficient someone is in English, I also don't want to "pounce" on them by asking them questions in English when they aren't preparied.

So, I recommend that you initiate conversations. Even if it's little things like, "Do you know where the drinking fountain is?" or "Is this weather typical around here?" it can show that you are comfortable talking in English, and people are more likely to talk back to you. Since you'll be here a long time, if you want to strike up a conversation, an easy topic might be places you should see in the U.S. True, you won't have time to see the Grand Canyon during your studies, but this should be an easy topic for most Americans, and I always think it's fun to talk about travel.
I know in much of the world, learning British English is standard. Soime words in the US are different, and some euphamisms (nick names for impolite subjects) are very different. For instance, in the States you will never hear someone refer to a restroom as a "lou", and to get someone's attention we always say "excuse me," not "sorry." One important one: That thing on the end of a pencil that is used when you make a mistake is an eraser. (In the UK they call them rubbers, but in the U.S. "a rubber" means "a condom", so don't ask for one unless you really know what you're getting into.)

If you run into a situation where people are using a term that you suspect would be embarassing for them to explain, you can check out urbandictionary.com . Don't trust everything on the site, and I strongly discourage using any words on there, as they are mostly swear words or crass sexual references, but it can still be useful for knowing what others are talking about.

Also -- and I recommended this on another forum -- many campuses have Christian groups that deliberately try to help out international students. ("International Friends" is one I'm familiar with.) They do things like organize social events or help people get furniture, and you don't have to be a Christian to participate.

Oh, and one last thing: Coversations about George W. Bush -- or other U.S. foreign policy decisions -- rarely end well. Try to avoid them . :-)

Good luck!

Justifies all the black turtlenecks in your closet.

man, just come over here, Austin is awesome and there is a big Indian community in the North Austin Area (although, since most of those guys are well-employed in semi conductors industry, the restaurants are pretty expensive

Again, YOU DO NOT MEMORIZE rules as a native speaker, it is a very sophisticated process called language acquisition. Chomsky was arguing about it 50 years ago (I don't remember exactly how many) and they are still arguing about it in linguistics and neurolinguistics to the present day. There are a lot of implications and a lot of processes that are not yet understood. We are talking about a high brain cognition, about bilateral interaction, about highly debated Brocca's and Wernicke's areas that are involved in the language acquisition of an individual. We do not fully understand the process of the first language acquisition by a child, not an adult learning L2. You learned your first language as a child and that was you L1, which is absolutely different from the situation of non-native English speakers. I just do not understand why it is so hard for an educated American grad student to make an effort and learn something about the L2 acquisition and cognitive linguistics. I feel deeply offended by your posts as a foreign student pursuing my degree in this country.

I presume you are in social sciences and I am just fascinated how poorly informed you are about the second language acquisition. Knowing the rules about articles or English sentence structure is still not going to teach a non-native speaker how to use them 100% properly and correctly. There is so much about cognitive linguistics tat is still relatively unknown or poorly understood; otherwise you could just teach any non-native speaker how to break down a sentence into semantic trees and easily determine a missing branch and correct it. If that was the case, the linguists would not be arguing about semantic trees and their preciseness and subjectivity and we would all have a perfect Google translator which would decently transform sentences from one language to another without losing any semantic elements. However, we DO NOT have such a magic software nor will we see it coming in the nearest future (and if you speak a foreign language with a high level of fluency, you have probably used Google Translator and are well aware of its limitations; some translated sentences are just plain embarrassing!!). I would recommend you to do a little research on L2 acquisition because some things that people have mentioned in this thread are just absolutely inappropriate and indicate a high level on unfamiliarity with language learning.

I presume you are in social sciences and I am just fascinated how poorly informed you are about the second language acquisition. Knowing the rules about articles or English sentence structure is still not going to teach a non-native speaker how to use them 100% properly and correctly. There is so much about cognitive linguistics tat is still relatively unknown or poorly understood; otherwise you could just teach any non-native speaker how to break down a sentence into semantic trees and easily determine a missing branch and correct it. If that was the case, the linguists would not be arguing about semantic trees and their preciseness and subjectivity and we would all have a perfect Google translator which would decently transform sentences from one language to another without losing any semantic elements. However, we DO NOT have such a magic software nor will we see it coming in the nearest future (and if you speak a foreign language with a high level of fluency, you have probably used Google Translator and are well aware of its limitations; some translated sentences are just plain embarrassing!!). I would recommend you to do a little research on L2 acquisition because some things that people have mentioned in this thread are just absolutely inappropriate and indicate a high level on unfamiliarity with language learning.

Again, YOU DO NOT MEMORIZE rules as a native speaker, it is a very sophisticated process called language acquisition. Chomsky was arguing about it 50 years ago (I don't remember exactly how many) and they are still arguing about it in linguistics and neurolinguistics to the present day. There are a lot of implications and a lot of processes that are not yet understood. We are talking about a high brain cognition, about bilateral interaction, about highly debated Brocca's and Wernicke's areas that are involved in the language acquisition of an individual. We do not fully understand the process of the first language acquisition by a child, not an adult learning L2. You learned your first language as a child and that was you L1, which is absolutely different from the situation of non-native English speakers. I just do not understand why it is so hard for an educated American grad student to make an effort and learn something about the L2 acquisition and cognitive linguistics. I feel deeply offended by your posts as a foreign student pursuing my degree in this country.

Again, YOU DO NOT MEMORIZE rules as a native speaker, it is a very sophisticated process called language acquisition. Chomsky was arguing about it 50 years ago (I don't remember exactly how many) and they are still arguing about it in linguistics and neurolinguistics to the present day. There are a lot of implications and a lot of processes that are not yet understood. We are talking about a high brain cognition, about bilateral interaction, about highly debated Brocca's and Wernicke's areas that are involved in the language acquisition of an individual. We do not fully understand the process of the first language acquisition by a child, not an adult learning L2. You learned your first language as a child and that was you L1, which is absolutely different from the situation of non-native English speakers. I just do not understand why it is so hard for an educated American grad student to make an effort and learn something about the L2 acquisition and cognitive linguistics. I feel deeply offended by your posts as a foreign student pursuing my degree in this country.

Again, YOU DO NOT MEMORIZE rules as a native speaker, it is a very sophisticated process called language acquisition. Chomsky was arguing about it 50 years ago (I don't remember exactly how many) and they are still arguing about it in linguistics and neurolinguistics to the present day. There are a lot of implications and a lot of processes that are not yet understood. We are talking about a high brain cognition, about bilateral interaction, about highly debated Brocca's and Wernicke's areas that are involved in the language acquisition of an individual. We do not fully understand the process of the first language acquisition by a child, not an adult learning L2. You learned your first language as a child and that was you L1, which is absolutely different from the situation of non-native English speakers. I just do not understand why it is so hard for an educated American grad student to make an effort and learn something about the L2 acquisition and cognitive linguistics. I feel deeply offended by your posts as a foreign student pursuing my degree in this country.

msafiri

As an L2 learner, I would like you to list the rules. All of them. Then I can happily learn them all.

What bullshit. Sorry, but you have no idea about language and linguistics, so please do not assume stuff that is clearly wrong.

It is a mystery to me how people, and for that matter, supposedly intelligent people, can boldly talk about language just because they happen to speak that language. I don't claim stuff in physics, even though I am obviously subject to certain physical rules such as gravity.


Armadilla: thanks for your more eloquent answer. I am too angry to give a more substantial reply at the moment....

Again, YOU DO NOT MEMORIZE rules as a native speaker, it is a very sophisticated process called language acquisition. Chomsky was arguing about it 50 years ago (I don't remember exactly how many) and they are still arguing about it in linguistics and neurolinguistics to the present day. There are a lot of implications and a lot of processes that are not yet understood. We are talking about a high brain cognition, about bilateral interaction, about highly debated Brocca's and Wernicke's areas that are involved in the language acquisition of an individual. We do not fully understand the process of the first language acquisition by a child, not an adult learning L2. You learned your first language as a child and that was you L1, which is absolutely different from the situation of non-native English speakers. I just do not understand why it is so hard for an educated American grad student to make an effort and learn something about the L2 acquisition and cognitive linguistics. I feel deeply offended by your posts as a foreign student pursuing my degree in this country.

I presume you are in social sciences and I am just fascinated how poorly informed you are about the second language acquisition. Knowing the rules about articles or English sentence structure is still not going to teach a non-native speaker how to use them 100% properly and correctly. There is so much about cognitive linguistics tat is still relatively unknown or poorly understood; otherwise you could just teach any non-native speaker how to break down a sentence into semantic trees and easily determine a missing branch and correct it. If that was the case, the linguists would not be arguing about semantic trees and their preciseness and subjectivity and we would all have a perfect Google translator which would decently transform sentences from one language to another without losing any semantic elements. However, we DO NOT have such a magic software nor will we see it coming in the nearest future (and if you speak a foreign language with a high level of fluency, you have probably used Google Translator and are well aware of its limitations; some translated sentences are just plain embarrassing!!). I would recommend you to do a little research on L2 acquisition because some things that people have mentioned in this thread are just absolutely inappropriate and indicate a high level on unfamiliarity with language learning.

I think all students should be treated fairly. Fair does not mean equal. Therefore, to expect the same impeccable level of academic writing from native English speakers and non-native English speakers is unfair. I'm advocating for different, not lowered, expectations. I'm suggesting that teachers make themselves aware of their students' cultural and language backgrounds and of their own subjective biases, especially when grading.

Here's the example I always use when I discuss the idea of "fairness": Does a person with a handicap sticker on his or her car get to park closer to the building? Yes. Well, I don't get to park closer. Equal? No. But, fair? Yes, because I'm not handicapped, and I can walk the extra twenty feet.

So, as a teacher, I would not take off points for a few minor grammatical mistakes. If the paper was incomprehensible, however, I would take the extra effort to correct the mistakes and suggest tutoring or the writing center. I'm a native English speaker, and my writing really improved in college when I took a writing course from a professor who basically nitpicked everything and made us review our peers' writing (anonymously) and nitpick everything.

I'll end with some classic humor. English is not the easiest language to learn (and, might I add, even for native English speakers). Witness: one of my favorite episodes ever from "I Love Lucy." Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmwZqJB_8dQ&feature=related

I was just trying to share my experience when you asked me, "Think about it this way: As your instructor, how am I supposed to know that you went to the writing center and got assistance? Should I just intuit it somehow from holding the pages in my hands?" By sharing my experience with one particular professor, I wanted you to understand that there are some students who proactively do try to communicate with professors that they have gained extra help.

You said, "As your instructor, I don't know whether you spent 2 hours or 2 weeks writing a paper and, quite frankly, I don't care because I'm going to grade what you give me…I don't care "how hard you work" because you can work really, really hard and still be a mediocre student." I think this is where we differ. Yes, it’s true that I will truly never know if a student spent a week or 2 hours on paper. However, if they show me evidences that they have tried really hard (ex. frequently visiting to the writing center or coming to office hours or asking many good questions in class), I will praise his/her efforts to achieve success. For me, the student’s process and progress to give me that final product are still valuable. If we don’t care about "how hard students work”, it’s like saying that ACT/SAT/GRE scores are the only thing that the admission committee should look at to judge every student in the world. This can mean that we shouldn’t care about how many hours you have spent on studying or what your future educational goals are or what backgrounds you came from. We will only judge you based on that specific score. To me, that’s unfair.

Look, I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. I apologize if I offended you. I’m sure you are dedicated instructor and your institution has a better writing center. Also, I understand that native speakers have to work hard for their papers as well. But can you imagine more struggles that non-native speakers have to face? I was once a chemistry student and I could have just calculated endless chemical equations and structures. However, I’m really passionate about my field that requires a lot of writing, and I’m going to continuously work harder to achieve my goal. However, at the end of the day, the admission committee will only see the letter grade that represents my work in the class. Thus, I want that grade to be fairly graded considering all my efforts.

This surprises me. I've never had a student say that s/he found visiting the Writing Center with a draft unhelpful. I have had students say it wasn't helpful but those are the students that go there wanting someone to tell them how to write the essay without having ideas of their own on paper. Maybe if you explained why these resources aren't helpful, I could understand what you're saying here.


I'm really not sure what you're saying here. It isn't enough just to attach the comments your tutor made. That is one part of the process of improving your writing and getting feedback from your professor is another. And really, it isn't up to the instructor to give you points for going to the Writing Center. You should go to there to improve your writing, especially if you know you need it. The one time I've given students points for going they were first year students, most of whom had no idea such a thing even existed. I encourage all of my students to go because it will lead to them earning a higher grade in almost all cases.

That said, it almost sounds like you're saying the professor should read over your grammar mistakes and not point them out to you at all. Then, how will you learn that you're making mistakes and not repeat them in the future?



Getting good grades is not necessarily about working hard. I don't know why undergraduates have a hard time understanding this but quite a few do, as do you it seems. You get your grade based on the work you turn in. As your instructor, I don't know whether you spent 2 hours or 2 weeks writing a paper and, quite frankly, I don't care because I'm going to grade what you give me. If it takes you 2 weeks to write an A-quality paper, that's fine. If you can do it in two hours, that's fine. But I don't care "how hard you work" because you can work really, really hard and still be a mediocre student.


I never said anything about taking grammar classes. Please don't put ideas into my mouth and act as if they are my own. What I said was that there are many, many rules of English grammar that can be memorized. I know this because, though I am a native speaker, I have had to memorize English grammar rules. And, if you can't memorize them, find someone to help you with your writing who can at least point out the problems to you so you can look them up. Seriously, writing requires effort, even for native speakers. You have to be willing to learn from the criticism of others, to make mistakes and fix them, to ask for help, and to read well-written pieces if you want your writing to improve. And that advice is the same whether or not English is your native language.

I took four years of Spanish in high school, and I have to say that the grammar and pronunciation rules for Spanish are much clearer than those for English. My only regret is that I did not continue learning Spanish in college, with the the result that I can still understand some Spanish but am unable to speak it coherently. And I live in Southern California! Sigh.

The other thing I would like to add is that many international students learn English as a second language in their home countries. In America, on the other hand, learning a second language in school is an elective, something that is deemed extra, not essential, to one's education. Therefore, I admire people who know more than one language.

Think about it this way: As your instructor, how am I supposed to know that you went to the writing center and got assistance? Should I just intuit it somehow from holding the pages in my hands? Granted, there was a course I TA'd where students who went to the Writing Center could get a form signed confirming that someone had helped them with their paper and then receive extra credit. BUT, that was one course. The rest of the time I simply have no idea whether or not my students go, even though I encourage ALL of my students (not just the non-native speakers) to go.


That's not really fair. Are you saying that we shouldn't penalize students at all for making grammatical mistakes? If so, why even both having grammar rules or teaching them in language courses? I realize that not all languages use articles and that some use articles all the time in places where English doesn't. But, learning to use articles correctly is part of learning the language. And, honestly, I've had to learn when to use and not use articles for two languages besides English already and there are rules that can be memorized.

What I don't understand is why I HAVENT gotten my rejection letters from Cornell and Chicago yet! If people have already starting getting acceptances and rejections, via email, then where are mine? I am 95% sure I am not accepted (no interview, no responses from POIs), so why haven't they just sent me the rejection already??

It feels like I've got my head on the block and the executioner hasn't shown up yet, but I KNOW he's coming!!

I'm not expecting good news, just some news somewhere in time. I was wondering why the person I had addressed in my post had received a rejection notice and I haven't yet. Are you that person?

Definitely. At least in the field of English literature, the most important components of your application are the Statement of Purpose and Writing Sample. I was nervous that a dismal score on the quantitative section (on the 30th percentile) and a mediocre 4.5 on the AW section would ruin my chances of being accepted, but I was very surprised to find out that even some of the most competitive programs do assess your application materials holistically.

I read gradcafe, but I never posted. This is my first post.
I always see question with "what are my chances?" & most of these people have perfect GPA & GRE score.
So, when I was applying for graduate school, I was so worried.

I have a low GRE score, but I got accepted to all the grad schools that I applied!
I applied to UT Austin, Georgia tech, UF, & UCLA. They all accepted me.

So, I just want to let other people know that you have a chance & GRE is just one part of the application.

My major is engineering.
My GRE score is Verbal 147, Math 159, & Writing 4.0

As a non-native speaker who came to the US for undergrad and decided to stick around for graduate school, I concur with @Andsowego (great name, btw!). You're not doing your non-native students any favors by expecting less of them - you're just giving them less of an incentive to improve. My English has always been good (better than most non-natives'), but I got the necessary impetus to better my writing from professors who made sure I knew I still needed work... I still remember a comment on one of my early undergrad papers, from one of my favorite and most beloved teachers - "you are too smart to be held back by an inadequate command of English." This was in the context of an analytically solid, grammatically correct essay, incidentally.

College is supposed to be a challenge. Real learning is uncomfortable, most of the time. Understanding that and pushing through that discomfort will help your students strive for better work. You just have to be diplomatic about it, and offer them supportive and actionable feedback, while making sure you don't pull your punches.

It should be possible to succeed in a writing assignment, even if you are a non-native speaker. There are resources available (writing centers and the like). Failing that, find someone to proofread papers. Don't expect lowered standards. Everyone has challenges they face -- they may be different challenges for different people, but we all have them. If we are wise, we are aware of which areas are problematic and we devise strategies to deal with them. This may mean doing more work than others in the class. So what? Who said that anything was supposed to be easy? I am back in school after 13 years. Some of my prereqs are more than 15 years old. In fields that have seen many advances. Does this mean I have a lot of catching up to do that recent graduates don't? Of course! I could be considered "semi-literate" in some of the areas I'm expected to perform in. Should "allowances" be made for me? I'd be insulted if they were. How do you expect to improve if subpar work is accepted? Sorry if people find this view harsh, but come on people . . . if something's worth doing, it's worth doing right.