poeteer

but does that mean it would hurt her chances? not helping =/= hurting. if so, that's weird to me, and actually quite ridiculous, only because (unless they only take students with MA in English degrees) I'm sure they accept students with just a BA in English, as well as students who took two years to work or travel before entering their doctorate. would they reject KendraA for working two years in an office job to pay off her student loans? maybe? I agree with her that an MFA is not preparation for the degree in rhet/comp, but lots of people do activities and seize opportunities that are not direct prep for their Ph.D and it doesn't seem to hurt them. it is sad to me that KendraA would be punished for spending two years partaking of another opportunity before committing herself to the 5+ year Ph.D commitment (and working in a writing-related field, no less, and probably teaching freshman comp), if the rest of her application is sound and demonstrates her commitment and ability to thrive in the field. an MFA is "less academic," and that is a good thing. I don't take offense to that.

to get a CW tenure-track teaching job in CNF, you'll probably need the MFA + at least one book with a decent (indie or commercial) press + some kind of award history, unless your published book is a really big deal. if you want to teach in an MFA program, I suggest getting the MFA first. if you aren't going that route, and you're fine with not teaching CW courses regularly, then skip the MFA and get the Ph.D in rhet/comp. however, if you have a book project you want to finish -- if your writing and that project are important to you and your happiness, or more important to you than your scholarship -- you might want to first get the MFA anyway, because otherwise you'll likely be putting that project on hold for the five years it takes you to complete your Ph.D. the main point of getting the MFA is not to qualify you for teaching but to improve your writing (as well as your creative practice and habits). the MFA itself will never get you a CW job, and it has been that way for a long time. the hard-won book publication(s) (and the recognition it gets, as well as the connections it makes you) gets you the job. the pressure is crazy-making. the path to tenure-track-CW-job is unbelievably stressful. so is the path to tenure-track-English-job. but the paths to each are very different. like anti, I am entering a Ph.D with CW dissertation next year; I am slow and I have not even finished my first book ms. three years post-MFA. after I finish I will need to send it out to contests and presses for lord knows how long, and until I do publish it I am not qualified for a decent academic position. and "qualified" =/= "get the job" since so many people are on the market, and the number is always rising. but I doubt your having the MFA will make you less desirable to Ph.D programs, especially if the MFA gives you the opportunity to teach comp. don't apply to any place that won't fund you fully.

I don't know how the hell anyone gets into the joint MFA/Ph.D at Cornell. getting into either the Ph.D or MFA at Cornell is a feat by its own right (the Cornell MFA is also extremely selective in part because it has some of the best funding in the country for the degree: a very high stipend for the area + the option to stay and teach for the same $ up to two years if you need to). and you need to get into both! one other option is the UW-Madison Ph.D's minor in creative writing -- you produce a scholarly dissertation but a fair portion of your coursework can be MFA workshops.

fair enough! it's just that the trajectory of your post went like this: "absolutely hell no, I don't want to be a writer -- I hate creative writing programs, mainly because the writers at my school suck." it links the ideas, even unintentionally. regardless I just find MFA-hate annoying so maybe I'm a little sensitive.

a good deal of successful writers of any era are "goddamn awful." but your line of thinking is odd to me. the act of creative writing in itself =/= creative writing programs, even in our heyday of MFA programs. and the creative writing program at your one school =/= all, or even most, creative writing programs. especially if the program at your school does not have the funds or presence to attract the best writers. your "hell no" reaction is also odd, as if you'd rather be a leper than a contemporary writer (and only two years post-passion)…because some writers at your school are bad?

That's how I considered the CW Ph.D when I was finishing up my MFA. I said I would never get one, made fun of them, etc. I had two fellowship years afterward, and that was wonderful. And now what am I supposed to do? I've had a job for a year and it sucks. I'm 27, still finishing my first book, and I only qualify for crappy adjunct positions. While I'm trying to finish my book and get it out there, I'd rather be a TA/student -- at least that comes with health coverage. As an English Ph.D, you'll see what it's like to be out in the world after your degree in a job market that's still a lottery game for people with accolades and publications galore -- not pretty. MFA graduates who should be on the job market are applying for CW Ph.D programs because they can't find work that's worth it. edit: also the CW Ph.D program is no longer a "new thing" -- it's not "trying to devalue" the MFA. it's been an option for a long time, but it wasn't popular until recently. The economy -- and humanities cuts across the country -- has done that for the MFA.

Creative Writing Ph.D programs exist -- I'm headed to one. I guess it's technically "English Ph.D with creative writing major field and creative dissertation" but, really, it's a CW degree and I plan to list it as such on my CV. With the CW job market the way it is now, more and more people are going that route post-MFA.

re: the OP, I think that it's fine to "negotiate" with your first choice if they have offered you little to no funding, or their lowest funding package that's fine but not great (and you have one on the table from your #2 choice that is great in comparison, like, maybe at least $5K more a year for your stipend and/or a lower teaching load). However, if they've already offered you departmental top-off funding and/or a reduced teaching load -- better funding than some of your potential peers received, even if it doesn't match your better offer from another school -- I wouldn't push it. They've already reached out to give you something special; if you're so concerned with extra $, just go to the school that offered you more. As for the funding from the grad school itself, e.g. a Dean's Fellowship, they can't do anything about that.

Did you try calling or emailing Columbia? I'd do that, as well as ask UPenn for a SHORT extension.

If this were for a Ph.D at Yale, or if UW wasn't funded, I'd say definitely back out of your commitment. but I think the UW two-year funded MA sounds like a better decision if you want to go on for the Ph.D. consider that you'll need to start applying for the Ph.D in the fall semester of your first MA year. won't you just be using the same materials, somewhat revised? you won't be able to bring much new perspective to the process. I think applying in the fall semester of your second year gives you a better leg up than the Yale name, and any letter of recommendation from a professor there (big name or not) would come after knowing you for only a couple months. so, I vote UW. (also consider that it is bad form to back out of a funded commitment this late without a very good reason.)

I'm having the same experience with the Creative Writing Ph.D at FSU, and others are, too. I got some evasive (but stock, clearly prepared and copied and pasted) waitlist-implying email back from the coordinator after I finally emailed, with a note to contact the director with questions. Well, of course I had questions, because the email was totally vague. Emailed the director, and no response. It's just rude. Why don't they just officially waitlist people? Why can't they answer a simple email with a straight answer?

NOT TRIP'S BOAT

is UT-Austin comparable? or is it a pretty different package you're considering?

What's the teaching load and stipend after the first-year fellowship? If you don't mind sharing. Just curious.

If you can't do that, I think teaching the 1/2 comp during coursework, and then teaching 2/2 lit during exams and diss, is probably better than teaching 1/2 comp all the way through. For the experience.