Dal PhDer

What I want to do to undergrads when they complain about having to read content that was not covered in class.

Waking up this morning and remembering everything I have to do today:

..I dunno....sometimes you just can't help yourself....

I would be far more disappointed if my entire graduate education was listening to an instructor lecture for an entire class. I think you're purposefully missing the point that we're trying to say- graduate school is about more than just someone telling you information. It's about building skills around collaboration, information sharing, management, and presenting your ideas/thoughts clearly to an audience; it's about learning to develop and implement your own plan of action; and developing the tools and abilities to seek out information and self-learn. A great way to help students learn this information is through self-directed labs. From your previous posts it seems that your fundamental problem is that you feel the professor should be guiding you along with this? Yes, perhaps they have presented a poorly written assignment- but once again, refer to my point in my previous post about shit happening. Sitting in a lecture every class will not give you the skills you need to complete a thesis or be successful outside of your degree. As for the money argument, a specific course instructor is so minimal in the entire scope of a graduate program. You're not paying for them, you're paying for your advisor, the space, etc. I don't think you can use that as a feasible argument here.

I find this very disrespectful and completely unnecessary. It's unrelated to your topic and original post, and completely disregards the advice / comments the community has made to help you with this issue. If you approached the professor with this same attitude and sense of entitlement, I can see why they wouldn't want to help you. In regard to the original topic. 1) Teaching is often only a small portion of tasks/duties professors have to complete. There is absolutely no reason why, during lab time when students are to complete an assignment and/or group work, the prof cannot be doing their own work. If they are there, and will assist you if you need help, then there's no harm. They should not be expected to sit, awaiting your call. 2) Graduate school is much more than being taught. Essentially at this level, it is expected that the profs will give you the information and then you take that information and learn it, synthesize it, and teach yourself through reading, discussion, peer work, and the knowledge of the prof/feedback from prof. In my experience, graduate school is not like undergrad where you are given a lecture (based on a textbook) for the entire time and then tested on it. In graduate school, you are simply given the tools and opportunity to gather the knowledge to learn from. 3) You are not paying the teacher to teach you. This is a horrible misconception. It is my understanding that a professors salary is based on a multitude of things, and teaching contributes only a small portion of that. 4) Sometimes teachers a not good at what they do. Yes. BUT they are human and humans have flaws. If you are having trouble understanding what their asking you to do, then it is your responsibility to respectfully approach them and ask them to explain further. Perhaps they have never received negative feedback on their teaching and/or assignment structure. In order for people to improve, they have to hear the feedback. 5) If you have never taught before, then you really do not understand the work that goes into course construction. Sometimes things happen, and you have to change it 30 minutes before class. You really cannot know what has happened prior to the lecture or assignment. Sometimes things happen and you can go with your original plan and you have to revise on the spot. It's a hard task to complete. In the end, it's was the first class- you can't always judge a prof by the first class. If you don't end up liking their teaching style, then I would drop the course. Simple solution.

I think you'll find socially inept people anywhere. I have met students who you are referring too...who really do not understand the cues to proper conversation..but there is also a lot of students who do discuss well. I think in one respect, as graduate students you're taught to have an opinion and to be able to rationalize that idea....sometimes I find myself (especially topics related to my work that are in the media) to have strong convictions and wanting to shake people..."WHY DON'T YOU GET ME!!?" ...but I think that can be said about anyone when they are passionate. I know there has been a trend to teach certain disciplines (those that deal with the public) to be more approachable and have the proper communication skills. I think this, regardless of your discipline and who you work with, should be something all students learn in graduate school.

I am much like you and am conscious of the timing of peer feedback. However, I have found that the feedback process is not only helpful for the person's work you're reading, but also for yourself. I have learned so much about writing from doing peer feedback. It's amazing how seeing someone else formulate an idea or argue a point, but improve your own ability/concept of writing. With this said, I was always conscious of how reading a peer's work on the same assignment influenced my thoughts/ideas...so I would only ever read and give feedback once I was finished with my assignment. It sounds like you are very cautious about intellectual property and want to make sure you don't accidentally influence your own work with someone else. I think that this is great! It might not be the same for you...but I found peer review, even if I thought it might make me sway my point, was always very useful!

I have to agree with Eigen. It's a tough situation. I was recently in a similar spot with committee members. I was getting frustrated waiting around for people to respond and/or commit and would chat with other people. It gets frustrating when you want to dive in, and others' schedules/responses delay you. However, you did kind of commit yourself with the wording of your communications (so it sounds like)...through my experience, you have to word things carefully and kind of "interview" professors with the right spot. Because there is a lot of competition for tenure and such between people in the same departments, it might create some tension if you agree to work with one prof, and then leave to work for another. However, with that said, you can wait around for someone. You took charge and it sounds like this new prof is really interested in working with you and can provide you with what you need. As Eigen said, I would write a nice and polite email just saying explaining the situation. Good luck!

Hmmmm..... It sounds like he might not be the best at what he does, but I would give him another chance. I have often found the first class is not a good representation of what a professor can actually do. I would give it another week and and see. With that said, I have been in a 3 hour class before where the first 90 minutes is a lecture, and the next 90 minutes are a self-directed lab. The teacher is normally there for questions, but they do expect you to figure it out and go through it on your own, and/or collaborate with your peers to help solve the problem. I have been in classes where this works really well because the directions/assignment is clearly laid out...but I have also been in ones where it's really hard and frustrating because it's really not clear what you're suppose to do. So in one respect, I don't think he's poor for not lecturing for 90 minutes and getting your to teach yourself (this is what grad school is about a lot of the time...you teach yourself and/or others- I remember my first year I was shocked at how many of my classes had students facilitate/teach them...i was like "these profs don't gots to do nothin'!")....and it's not bad that he's suggestion you figure it out with your peers before coming to him...it might just be his personality...or he could have been having a bad day. However, if you're finding the style and/or direction is not what you like, do you have an option to switch courses? What do previous students say about this professor?

Thank you for the advice! I have discussed with the prof the issues around the TA duties and the marker wage, and it was quickly remedied! Yay! I really appreciated them taking charge of it so quickly. I am meeting with them tomorrow to discuss the course layout. I want to thank you guys for suggesting I bring this to their attention. I completely agree. I guess I'm not use to working with a prof that's just developing a course. For me, I would be completely stressed about all the loose ends, but that's me. My Type A personality needs to let go of the wheel! Rising_star: thank you for the reference to the book! I am going to check with my library and see if they have it. I figure it would be the perfect thing to bring to the meeting tomorrow! Thank you again!

Hmm...this is interesting, I can see what you're saying. I think with a discussion like this, you can generalize to the extreme...whether it's classifying the behaviour and attitudes of poor people, or rich people. I think you're bringing up a really great point, that just because you may have come from a family who could afford to support you, it shouldn't diminish how hard you've work to get where you are.When you say privileged, you can't automatically default to the stereotypical student who got into an Ivy league school just because their father plays golf with the dean..(I might watch too much Gossip Girl...)...that's forming such ill fitting conclusions and I suggested people where doing with poor families. I guess for me, it comes down to the fact that I don't want anyone to think that anything other than my hard work has gotten me where I am. I think we all feel like that! And lets me honest here- I know that part of the reason I work so hard is so that I can be in a place in my life to have a family and support them (e.g., pay for their higher education so they don't have to work). I think a lot of us (if not all) have that same desire for their future.

It's interesting. The more I come back and read this thread, I think it comes down to (1) discipline and (2) length of time in your program. I am trying to think back to when I started graduate school, and I am sure I probably had the same hesitations about sharing my work. Prior to that, being right and being the person to know the answer was what you were evaluated on...in graduate school this all changes. You are often in a class with peers that come from various disciplines and background. Often, someone will read one piece of work and see it differently than another student. Being able to voice that perspective and follow it up with a rationale and evidence will be what makes you stand out. Thus, knowing the answer (even if there is or isn't a right and/or wrong) is only part of it, it's being able to justify your choice. I feel that if people steal a thought/idea through a piece of writing before class, they probably wouldn't have the rationale/justification for it, and would therefore lack in the discussion. Also, as rising_star said: sometimes it helps you form your argument. I think I was always very lucky, because if someone came up with a great point in an out of class discussion, the students were always very quick to say, "Oh well, so-and-so, you mentioned ........ during our discussion the other day" ... My field if very interdisciplinary, so working collaboratively on a research team is really essential to successful projects. I think it's a skill that needs to be taught more, and not just assumed that students have this ability. Course work experience is a great way to hone in on that skill!

I think it might be best to talk to someone at your school about this. Most schools have free counselling that you be able to help you with the feelings you are having, and shed light onto your personal life and the dynamics of being in a long distance relationship. Your best bet is to contact them as soon as possible and let them know how you are feeling. Graduate school is stressful and overwhelming on it's own. To add additional stress and loss (just moving away from your partner is hard), compounds it all. It sounds like you have a lot going on, and would benefit from talking to someone that could help you figure out the situation you are in with your partner. The best of luck.

HI there, I am not in your field or do bench work like you...so I don't know about the job prospects or if it'll get better and such...but I did want to echo what the others have said, in that you may be experiencing the difficult transition from ug to graduate school. The transition itself is stressful and hard, and it sounds like you have more added on to it with a somewhat demeaning supervisor who works you like a slave. It sounds like you are unhappy with several things going on- between lack of time to study, free time, disrespect, overwhelming duties. Perhaps you can talk to other students or even a graduate coordinator about what are the expectations of students in their program. In my program, your first year is dedicated to course work, you cannot move onto your comprehensives until you've completed all your courses. You're also not allowed to do dissertation research at the expense of your courses and/or comps. On top of THAT, you're only allowed to work 10-15 hrs a week...this ensures that a students and the department are aware that your time is spent on your own work. I think you should try and stay with it a little longer- maybe working with a different PI is all you need...however, I know what it's like to hate going into work/school everyday, and it constantly being a source of anxiety. Encase this isn't the route you want to take, maybe you could make an appointment with a career counsellor at your school to discuss potential paths for you to take. This might help relieve some anxiety around thinking you have no other options. Goodluck, and know you're not alone. Grad school can be a really difficult time for many students, where they are in environments that beat them down. We're all here for ya and are wishing you the best!

I am like you...I have traditionally used word for all my references..I have recently gotten into Mendeley. I REALLY like it. I have tried Endnote and RefWorks before and haven't been impressed...but Mendeley does everything that i need! It's hosts the articles so I can access them anywhere. I can review/read/annotate documents. It's great!

I imagine you looking like this last night, on your birthday, on a weekend, in the lab, at a crazy hour of the night. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! :) And yes, this place and wordpress are my go to procrastinating tools...it's amazing how i can come on here for 5 minutes and an hour passes by...WHAT DO I DO ON HERE FOR THAT LONG??? Also Facebook sucks up time like a vacuum. I love it!

Good luck! I think this is a great idea! It's nice to do it and have the opportunity to learn more and get more richness out of the class material...but you'll also get to know your peers on a different level! ...I always found sneaking in a bottle of wine for late night discussions made me friends .... ..... I have to say I have had the same experience. I never felt in competition with my peers...but I think it must be the discipline I am in...we were always doing such different things that I didn't feel that there would be competition for employment afterwards. But I imagine that in some fields this could be the exact opposite. I think I would hate that...I love the collegial attitude and experiences I have had thus far. I think it would be so overwhelming to have another layer of stress added onto the experience! I would go insane...

I love this!! I am like you...um...do I really need 4 different shades of orange nail polish? Probably not.....it's funny. Even though we didn't have a lot of money growing up, I never felt deprived of anything! I know this isn't the case for all privileged students, but I sometimes think they have it harder off...often times they have higher expectations that they are pressured to meet. Whereas my family is happy if I am happy!

A 'title' will come after the project is determined. A 'topic' is a whole other giant bubbly kettle of fish... (wait, bubbling fish in a kettle is horrible!) ...back to the topic. I don't think we can come up with a topic for you. This is something that you, along with your supervisor, should come up with. However, we can offer you some steps to forming an interesting and needed question. The first step would be to do a broad search of the literature in the area you are interested in. Since you're proposing a HUGE area, the first step would be to narrow it down to a sub-focus of Israel-Palestine conflict...is there something specific about this topic that you're interested in? Political climate? Economic impact? Longterm health impact? etc...What about this topic interests you. Once you narrow down that area, it's time to do a more specific literature search. Look for articles that have done research in the area, and focus in on what they are saying are the gaps. Reading 5-7 articles and looking at the limitations and future recommendation sections will help you see where more work needs to be done! I would try and generate 2-3 potential thesis topics and present them to your advisor. This will allow you to get their opinion on the most reasonable and realistic project!

Hmm...my answer is not based on clinical vs molecular research....but I would say lab science has a bit of a benefit in publications, as a lot of time the lab work itself can be it's own publication and then the results could be another. With that said, a lot of non-lab/clinical work can do this with literature syntheses (not sure that bench work really does that) and/or conceptual pieces. I think students should consider these options as publications from their dissertation work. Not sure if that answers what you're thinking....I also resent that because I don't do bench work, I don't get to wear a lab coat.

Thanks Fuzzy!! I want to be really careful how I handle the situation because I certainly don't want to come across as me thinking they don't know what they're doing! I did approach them today and mention that the duties that they're asking are what a TA not a marker is doing, and if I am to continue on, the position title will need to be changed. (I give myself a point for attacking a situation with potential conflict head on. I give the members of the GradCafe 1000points for reminding me always that I have to stick up for myself!). As it is now, the department is looking for additional funds to support that position- so it sounds good. I agree with you that I should approach him carefully about my concerns, as they are truly coming from a spot of nice concern rather than 'I'm a crazy control freak!'. In my mind, I would like to help them get the course off to a great start and have everything in place. I also know I have to realize that the course and its outcome is not my responsibility, and while I might do things differently, it's not my place. I am glad that you see the authorship delegation as potential issue! Making me feel more confident to bring it up! I know when I was an UG i wouldn't think about authorship and being entitled to have my work being represented/cited appropriately...so I don't want it to go unnoticed!

Hello forum users! I am involved in a class that has recently gotten a new professor and restructured the course assignments. [To preface everything, the prof is a great guy and is super nice, and has so many fantastic ideas and I think the restructuring is really cool!] I have a few questions regarding the feasibility/ethics of the assignments- because I've never seen a course structured this way and it seems to me that it poses potential problems. The biggest issue I am concerned about is the intellectual property of the assignments. The class will be broken down into groups of students, and these groups will have to complete two projects together. These projects will form a final document to be given to another department who is 'partnering' with the class. This document will then be used to inform a 'bigger' project/initiative. I don't know the details of how this class is working with the department or exactly how the work will be used, which makes me a bit concerned about how the students' work will be represented. If pieces of these documents are used to form a larger document, each individual students would need to receive acknowledgement, correct? Or would the entire class receive acknowledgement? Are there normally safeguards in place that would ensure that these students' work is not going to be taken and used as someone else's? Have you seen/been apart of a class format like this? What was your experience? Opinion? The other issue is that one of the assignments require students to interview an individual and write up about it. The general idea is really to give the students a chance to become familiar with both quant and qual methods/skills...but I'm a bit worried about the ethics around this. If the interview was used just for learning purposes, then I feel like ethics wouldn't be an issue, as it's inter-departmental and the information wouldn't be used for anything but learning - normally you don't need REB approval for these types of data gathering. However, since these assignments are apart of this 'bigger' document, this means that we're (prof/me...lets me honest, ME!) is going to have to consult REB and have consenting procedures. Correct? I might be off...This also poses a problem because it hasn't been done, and it's a semester long course. Our REB won't meet again until Oct 8th- it'll probably let us barely get by. But I am not sure the prof has considered this or even thought about it- do I bring it up? Or just let it go? If I let it go and nothing is done, and we run into REB issues, we're screwed...but if I bring it up, I am just adding more to my plate and not really giving the prof the due credit that they've thought about it (it's their second time teaching and first time at this university- I am not sure if they know the policies here). I guess I am a bit hesitant and worried. I feel like it's building up to be a big clustersmuck. I marked for this class last year, and it was completely different, but worked. I am just worried that this new idea, while awesome, isn't flushed out enough. They even want me to spearhead some of the groups and make up their assignments [manage databases (find them, research them and be the go to person for them), come up with the questions/objectives for their assignments)...and while i don't mind doing it as it's a learning opportunity, they seems to be unaware that such duties fall under a TA (~$22/hr) vs. a marker (~$14/hr. ..me). Anyways...thoughts? Am I going down with a sinking ship? Should I be worried? Do I voice my concerns, or does it look like I am taking over?.....just another Monday!

I have to agree with SeriousSillyPutty- this would be an excellent opportunity for an independent reading course. My experience with my MA (and I'm not going to suggest that it's the same for all programs), is that you don't really spend your time focusing on other publishable work- you focus your time on getting in and out with a finished thesis. Now, that thesis product most often is written in a way that you can get at least 2 papers out of it. I would say a lot of students go into their PhDs with not a lot (if any) publications- it's mostly conference proceedings. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, I was lucky enough to work on some datasets that my professor had and was able to get a couple conference proceedings out of it, and eventually (after I graduate) two papers out of the work. However, if you're looking for a paper, I might suggest that you talk to your advisor and ask if you can do an independent course with them that could be a literature review/synthesis or conceptual paper that would directly contribute to your thesis but also act as a stand alone paper. As to whether you should separate from the students....I dunno...I feel your concern, because I would be the type of student who would also not want to push my advisor into saying no. I might talk with the student and say that you're interested in going the route where you can publish via your thesis, and then approach your advisor with the idea of the independent/guided course.

The best and worst part is when you have that one person in your group that you just want to strangle...it's awful to have to deal with it, but you learn soooooo many fantastic interpersonal skills (that you will use in the future!)! haha! It's interesting to look back now, and realize how 'dealing with people' was actually something I learned (and am still learning) to do in grad school!

I think it's really interesting. I have a hugely different perspective on this, but I kind of wonder if it's because I'm not in classes at the moment and haven't been for the last year or so. When I was doing my MA, it was a pretty tight group, and I really enjoyed getting together and discussing the week's reading assignments before class. For me, it allowed me to clarify what the article really meant. We did this on occasion when we were heavily loaded with things, or we actually had to facilitate a class...we didn't do it every week, because you're right in some respects- class IS for that, where it is facilitated by the professor. But I think you're losing a little bit of the experience if you only use class time to discuss the work, sometimes it's the out of class discussion that is what really sticks. As for writing and sending it to other students....I wouldn't go out of my way to rewrite my own notes. I think that's extra work that's not needed. If you are a person who writes a summary/notes on your own, i think that's reasonable to share with the class...as for stealing your ideas/work....I don't remember having that worry. I can remember sharing assignments to be peer reviewed, working with other students (or sending them my assignment) if they were a bit unclear on their goals/objectives...perhaps it was a bit naive, but I had complete trust in my fellow grad students that they wouldn't steal my work. I think there's a general respect in grad school (or perhaps it's just my discipline!) that you don't do that. Also, RA/TA work, you're right it does help with team work, collaboration, and sharing...but I think there is value in class work collaboration. Perhaps it's just that I have always had really great experiences working with other students outside the classroom on assignments and readings, but I have always found it really valuable...and it's a great way to build peer relationships and friendships. I guess each to their own! But personally, I would stress trying to be involved in as many collaborative sessions/activities as possible...because it's a two way street- you share your work and maybe get great/useful feedback, but you're also partaking in reviewing their work (which is also a great skill) and getting to see how another perspective reads the same piece of work!