... where is the job data

[la_mod]

Hey all. 

I’m currently trying to compare placement rates for some of the schools I’ve been admitted to, and I’m running in to a staggering lack of data. Most do the vague “here’s where people have gone recently” or post updates by date, which means that someone might have been placed in a TT job in 2017 (where it’s listed), but actually graduated in 2013. Any suggestions on asking for more info from programs? Would I be better off asking grad students? Am I being too hung up on this?

Edited February 22, 2018 by la_mod
I can’t spell, apparently

[jelris]

No, placement data is a perfectly legitimate concern when looking at graduate programs. Unfortunately, the information is often opaque and/or disorganized. Sometimes departments will have a reasonably extensive list of alumni, when they graduated and where they were placed, if anywhere. If any of your programs do that, you can always try and do a manual list. I have heard that, if you're bold, you may be able to squeeze placement data out of a department by e-mailing the office but I'm not sure how well that would work. It all depends on whether they have the statistics and are purposefully keeping them opaque or whether they are just not keeping very good stats.

One kind of soft measures you can kind of use is the NRC ranking for a program (https://www.chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-English/124728). The "Students" rank is derived from "students' completion rates, financial aid, and other criteria" where hopefully other criteria includes student placement. Sometimes, you can find data on the site for the Graduate School as opposed to the departmental site.

[bpilgrim89]

10 hours ago, la_mod said:

Hey all. 

I’m currently trying to compare placement rates for some of the schools I’ve been admitted to, and I’m running in to a staggering lack of data. Most do the vague “here’s where people have gone recently” or post updates by date, which means that someone might have been placed in a TT job in 2017 (where it’s listed), but actually graduated in 2013. Any suggestions on asking for more info from programs? Would I be better off asking grad students? Am I being too hung up on this?

I have asked for placement data, and I get mixed responses depending on the department. But I also think their response to that question is important! A department should at the very least be transparent with admitted students about how the current ones fare in post-graduate outcomes.

Instead of asking directly, I also try "Does the department keep statistical data about graduate placement, and if so, is that information accessible to admitted students?" If they don't share the data, that tells me something. If they don't keep the data, that tells me something else. If they do offer the information, that tells me something too.

If they do offer data, here is Princeton's (which is blessedly publicly accessible!) It should give you an idea of what the higher end of placement looks like: https://english.princeton.edu/graduate/program/job-placement/job-placement-statistics-1995-present

Edited February 22, 2018 by bpilgrim89

[Warelin]

17 minutes ago, bpilgrim89 said:

I have asked for placement data, and I get mixed responses depending on the department. But I also think their response to that question is important! A department should at the very least be transparent with admitted students about how the current ones fare in post-graduate outcomes.

Instead of asking directly, I also try "Does the department keep statistical data about graduate placement, and if so, is that information accessible to admitted students?" If they don't share the data, that tells me something. If they don't keep the data, that tells me something else. If they do offer the information, that tells me something too.

If they do offer data, here is Princeton's (which is blessedly publicly accessible!) It should give you an idea of what the higher end of placement looks like: https://english.princeton.edu/graduate/program/job-placement/job-placement-statistics-1995-present

I think Princeton's data is a good place to start. However, I think it's good to note two things at every school and Princeton does make mention of it:

*Reflects active job searches. Please be aware that candidates for jobs sometimes repeat their candidacies over more than one year in the job market. (It is becoming more common on the market that job searches do take multiple years. Postdocs are becoming more common and so are VAPs.)

If you're browsing quickly, you may see the percentage for total academic jobs and confuse it with TT positions. Academic jobs include postdocs, VAPs, Lecturers and Adjunct positions.
 

[klader]

I definitely feel like some places are more transparent than others -- one gave me a chart with all the information I needed/wanted for PhD graduates over the past five years; some don't even mention anything on their websites or are fussy when you ask.

I feel like transparency is a strength for a PhD program, because they're not necessarily hiding anything from you. They'll say, "Yes, everyone has gotten a job, but not necessarily on the tenure track." And I respect that honesty. I'd contact them directly for this info, as they may tell you privately even if they don't have it listed publicly.

[Yanaka]

I know there’s been debates about this: but don’t we know there’s a 2% chance we get a TT anyway?  

[Boomski]

5 minutes ago, Yanaka said:

I know there’s been debates about this: but don’t we know there’s a 2% chance we get a TT anyway?  

This. Any Intro to Grad Studies course worth its salt will begin with "The market is really rough - like so rough that I barely managed to finagle this job twenty years ago with my top tier PhD and well received book. Anyways, you're already here, so we should get started..."

 

That's about as transparent as you can get!

[TakeruK]

I personally wouldn't rule out a program just because they are not 100% thorough and transparent about post-grad job placements. As you might imagine, it is quite hard to keep track of everyone who has graduated, especially beyond their first post-grad position. Even when a department tries to keep track, whether they are successful depends on the willingness of their alumni to respond to surveys and such.

Something like Princeton's chart would be amazing but even that chart can only show people who have self-reported. Looking at the recent Dissertations, about 6 students graduate per calendar year. I don't know what the expected number of years you would be on the market in your field, but if it's N years then one might expect there to be 6 times N candidacies listed. Otherwise, there are people missing, which are likely people who aren't interested in academia any more. So the absolute numbers on these charts are good, but the percentages aren't great. Also, there seems to be 83 students on the department webpage but if only 6 dissertations per year, then maybe something is happening to them (or maybe the listed students are probably in other departments too and/or include Masters students so they might not have their dissertation listed on this department page).

In any case, I would also be concerned about a department having a chart that appears to be thorough but is incomplete or hiding some information. And these charts often do not distinguish between graduates who are interested in academic positions and those who are not (and whether they became not interested in academic position as a result of the job market or not).

For small enough programs, the current students are the ones that best know where their cohort has gone, so ask them about it too. And I find that asking professors about the students they have advised will get you much more accurate information (graduates are more likely to stay in contact with their advisors than the department). Some profs put info about their students' current positions on their CVs too! 

[Yanaka]

I'm pretty interested in where students go outside of academia. I was told by Rutgers people that the criticism you develop through a Ph.D. is very prized by different fields that aren't even necessarily related to pure Lit. 

[la_mod]

32 minutes ago, Yanaka said:

I'm pretty interested in where students go outside of academia. I was told by Rutgers people that the criticism you develop through a Ph.D. is very prized by different fields that aren't even necessarily related to pure Lit. 

I'm also v v v v v interested in this. I'm especially interested in DH and am curious as to how that could translate. 

[LibraryLivingJT]

6 hours ago, Boomski said:

This. Any Intro to Grad Studies course worth its salt will begin with "The market is really rough - like so rough that I barely managed to finagle this job twenty years ago with my top tier PhD and well received book. Anyways, you're already here, so we should get started..."

 

That's about as transparent as you can get!

Amen to that. My Intro to Grad studies prof when I got my Master's always told me: "Keep your eyes WIDE OPEN" and that the market is so incredibly tough

[rising_star]

So this thread prompted me to look up my own PhD department website. They only list placements of those who graduated 2004-2014 and only those in academic positions. Because I know some of the people, I know that some of the information is out of date (that is, people who have moved institutions or who have been promoted at the same institution). Also, I now know that I'm not on it... That said, no one from the department has ever asked me where I work and my PhD advisor moved to another institution before I graduated. I wouldn't be surprised if there are students at other places who fall through the cracks in the same way that I have. 

Also, I'll note that such a page didn't even exist back when I was applying to grad schools.