unflattering LOR?

[fj20]

One of my recommenders let me read their letter, and I can't tell whether it would hurt or help my application. Obviously I don't want to quote it verbatim, but the gist of it is that, at the start of the semester, although I was clearly conscientious and deep-thinking, I was "an awkward, slightly grumpy (but always polite) student" who "thought so hard and so elliptically that his comments were incomprehensible to the other students." But then, after a talk with the professor, I made great strides and become more communicative, and my final paper was "a tour de force - witty, carefully-written and marvelously intellectually capable." It ends by saying that I "will never be able to run with the herd (I have the sensibility of the auto-didact) but I am teachable, tractable, and very very clever." He or she "recommends me in the highest terms."

So on the whole it's a positive letter, but is it unwise to have an LOR with any negative comments at all? Shouldn't it be entirely positive? More specifically, won't admissions committees be turned off by the thought of a grumpy and awkward TA who has trouble communicating his thoughts to the class, even if this image was only the "before" of this "before and after" scenario?

Sorry for such a self-involved post, but I'd really appreciate anyone's opinion. ...If you don't feel like getting into it, a simple "hurt," "help," or "either/or" would help.

[intextrovert]

I've heard that good letters of recommendation also include mention of the applicant's weaknesses, or else they don't seem credible. There's LoR inflation just like grade inflation, and when you're getting tons of very positive letters, getting one from a prof that really seems to know the student can make it stand out. Obviously, the weaknesses mentioned shouldn't be serious ones, but none of those you mention fall into that category. Mostly the letter seems to say you've overcome or outgrown your weaknesses - so that's a good thing! Don't worry. Adcoms know you're not a perfect being. Seems like a great letter. And I wish my writers had offered to let me read their recs for me!

Edited March 6, 2010 by intextrovert

[soxpuppet]

First of all, I'll second Intextrovert's comments - an acknowledgement of your weaknesses shows that your letter writer is discerning and has high standards. The fact that you received a positive letter from such a person indicates that you have met these standards and that such standards were not necessarily easy to meet. In answer to your basic question, from what I understand, a few minor negative comments can actually be helpful, if only in convincing adcoms of the recommender's honesty.

From my perspective, the greatest weakness of the letter would be that, from the lines you provided here, this professor seems only to have known you for one semester. I don't actually know what is standard, but I was personally advised against asking for a backup letter from a professor with whom I'd only taken one undergraduate seminar even though I had spoken with him in person and over email fairly regularly in the following quarters. I think that if you have a narrative describing your development over the course of a semester, it's not likely to be as compelling a description of your scholarly character as an account of your development over the course of a year or two. In describing a longer-term trajectory, the improvements you've made are more likely to be depicted as complete than as still in progress. Basically, the "after" portion of the "before and after" scenario carries more weight coming from someone who has known you for more than a couple of months.

BUT I haven't read enough letters to have any real sense as to how this one would weigh up. And I know most applicants have finished or are finishing their undergraduate careers and don't have the means to take additional classes from the professors they hope will recommend them. I was very lucky to have the opportunity to take multiple classes or work on projects with my mentors, and I don't mean to impose the privileges of my experience as a mandate of what's necessary to get a good letter. I HAVE heard "teachability" spoken of as an extremely valuable quality, and the fact that your letter writer both shows and explains that you are capable of taking constructive criticism and exceeding expectations for improvement is definitely a plus.

Good luck! Was that a letter you used this season or that you are planning to use in the future?

One of my recommenders let me read their letter, and I can't tell whether it would hurt or help my application. Obviously I don't want to quote it verbatim, but the gist of it is that, at the start of the semester, although I was clearly conscientious and deep-thinking, I was "an awkward, slightly grumpy (but always polite) student" who "thought so hard and so elliptically that his comments were incomprehensible to the other students." But then, after a talk with the professor, I made great strides and become more communicative, and my final paper was "a tour de force - witty, carefully-written and marvelously intellectually capable." It ends by saying that I "will never be able to run with the herd (I have the sensibility of the auto-didact) but I am teachable, tractable, and very very clever." He or she "recommends me in the highest terms."

So on the whole it's a positive letter, but is it unwise to have an LOR with any negative comments at all? Shouldn't it be entirely positive? More specifically, won't admissions committees be turned off by the thought of a grumpy and awkward TA who has trouble communicating his thoughts to the class, even if this image was only the "before" of this "before and after" scenario?

Sorry for such a self-involved post, but I'd really appreciate anyone's opinion. ...If you don't feel like getting into it, a simple "hurt," "help," or "either/or" would help.

Edited March 6, 2010 by soxpuppet

[subzoo]

seems like a great letter to me, the professor sounds like a very cool person

Edited March 7, 2010 by subzoo

[fj20]

Wow thanks a lot to both of you, really appreciate it (and am relieved to hear your opinions). Although I'm rather worried by what you say about the importance of taking more than one course with a recommender, because I'm afraid not one of my 3 recommenders knew me for longer than a semester. I knew this wasn't good, but I simply didn't have any repeat professors - I was abroad all junior year, and most of my time was spent in just taking survey courses, since I double-majored in French. (Incidentally, won't adcoms take this into account, that I put a lot of effort in this other, equally viable direction, and so could not get an honors degree, etc.?) For what it's worth though, one of my recommenders was from sophomore year, and still remembered me positively, and he read a lot of my senior year work before writing his letter, so he could judge my improvement since sophomore year. Any more thoughts? (although really I hesitate to ask for any more of your time, you've been too helpful already, and really this is mere obsessive curiosity at bottom.)

in answer to your question, i used the letter for this season, yes, and to be honest it doesn't seem to have helped me yet: 4 applications, not a word from any of them, even though 3 of them are almost or possibly entirely done notifying...1 hasn't even begun though. Could this be due to my other problem, the lack of repeat professors?

[Strong Flat White]

...There's LoR inflation just like grade inflation,...

Ahem. I believe you just said, LoR inflation. I think we all need to shoot ourselves in the face now.

[herself the elf]

at the start of the semester, although I was clearly conscientious and deep-thinking, I was "an awkward, slightly grumpy (but always polite) student" who "thought so hard and so elliptically that his comments were incomprehensible to the other students." But then, after a talk with the professor, I made great strides and become more communicative, and my final paper was "a tour de force - witty, carefully-written and marvelously intellectually capable." It ends by saying that I "will never be able to run with the herd (I have the sensibility of the auto-didact) but I am teachable, tractable, and very very clever." He or she "recommends me in the highest terms."

I think that this letter perfectly describes the stereotypical characteristics of a professor. So, while it may not be something that you would want to be on match.com, I think it is perfect for what you are going for, which is presumably to be an academic.

After reading this letter, who wouldn't want you?

What an odd, wonderful LoR. Thanks for posting and good luck to you.

[Medievalmaniac]

One of my recommenders let me read their letter, and I can't tell whether it would hurt or help my application. Obviously I don't want to quote it verbatim, but the gist of it is that, at the start of the semester, although I was clearly conscientious and deep-thinking, I was "an awkward, slightly grumpy (but always polite) student" who "thought so hard and so elliptically that his comments were incomprehensible to the other students." But then, after a talk with the professor, I made great strides and become more communicative, and my final paper was "a tour de force - witty, carefully-written and marvelously intellectually capable." It ends by saying that I "will never be able to run with the herd (I have the sensibility of the auto-didact) but I am teachable, tractable, and very very clever." He or she "recommends me in the highest terms."

So on the whole it's a positive letter, but is it unwise to have an LOR with any negative comments at all? Shouldn't it be entirely positive? More specifically, won't admissions committees be turned off by the thought of a grumpy and awkward TA who has trouble communicating his thoughts to the class, even if this image was only the "before" of this "before and after" scenario?

Sorry for such a self-involved post, but I'd really appreciate anyone's opinion. ...If you don't feel like getting into it, a simple "hurt," "help," or "either/or" would help.

I am going to say no, it is a good thing to have the good, the bad, and the ugly in your LOR, but what I object to (as someone who writes LORs regularly myself for my own students) is that she is supposed to be writing about YOU, not about how fabulous she is as a mentor. I don't like the point at which she says "well, he really sucked, until he came to talk to me; then he magically turned around" That's not even about you, it's a plug for her own skills as a mentor/mediator. It should have read something like "he took the initiative to meet with me about his ongoing problems in the class, and demonstrated maturity and a willingness to accept critical feedback through his implementation of suggestions concerning x,y, z" - you see the difference? It should focus on your growth and qualities as a student, not on her ability to poof! cause you through a single meeting to make great strides as a student.

Aside from that, I think it's fine, it certainly appears that she has a lot of regard for you (maybe not as much as she does for herself, though. )

[intextrovert]

I am going to say no, it is a good thing to have the good, the bad, and the ugly in your LOR, but what I object to (as someone who writes LORs regularly myself for my own students) is that she is supposed to be writing about YOU, not about how fabulous she is as a mentor. I don't like the point at which she says "well, he really sucked, until he came to talk to me; then he magically turned around" That's not even about you, it's a plug for her own skills as a mentor/mediator. It should have read something like "he took the initiative to meet with me about his ongoing problems in the class, and demonstrated maturity and a willingness to accept critical feedback through his implementation of suggestions concerning x,y, z" - you see the difference? It should focus on your growth and qualities as a student, not on her ability to poof! cause you through a single meeting to make great strides as a student.

Aside from that, I think it's fine, it certainly appears that she has a lot of regard for you (maybe not as much as she does for herself, though. )

I disagree. I think it's showing that "teachable" characteristic in a more tangible way. Even with great teachers, the student has to be receptive to criticism to turn things around. S/he says that he is, so I think that's all s/he was trying to show.

[soxpuppet]

As I said, I'm not really sure how big a deal it is that your professors know you for a long time - I know that it can help, but I don't know how much if at all it can hurt you if that's not the case. It seems good that you have a letter writer who has known you since Sophomore year.

Wow thanks a lot to both of you, really appreciate it (and am relieved to hear your opinions). Although I'm rather worried by what you say about the importance of taking more than one course with a recommender, because I'm afraid not one of my 3 recommenders knew me for longer than a semester. I knew this wasn't good, but I simply didn't have any repeat professors - I was abroad all junior year, and most of my time was spent in just taking survey courses, since I double-majored in French. (Incidentally, won't adcoms take this into account, that I put a lot of effort in this other, equally viable direction, and so could not get an honors degree, etc.?) For what it's worth though, one of my recommenders was from sophomore year, and still remembered me positively, and he read a lot of my senior year work before writing his letter, so he could judge my improvement since sophomore year. Any more thoughts? (although really I hesitate to ask for any more of your time, you've been too helpful already, and really this is mere obsessive curiosity at bottom.)

in answer to your question, i used the letter for this season, yes, and to be honest it doesn't seem to have helped me yet: 4 applications, not a word from any of them, even though 3 of them are almost or possibly entirely done notifying...1 hasn't even begun though. Could this be due to my other problem, the lack of repeat professors?