Anything and everything about the Duke / Sanford MPP

[stilesg57]

Like the topic says, this is the Duke / Sanford MPP thread. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll answer (as much as I can) in a somewhat timely manner. There's also a 2nd year in the program who lurks around these boards...

[Bastille]

Hey, Stiles.

I really appreciate how helpful you've been on the forum. I would really like to accept Duke's offer, but as you could probably infer from my other thread, am having a lot of cognitive dissonance.

One big issue for me, is that the career center hasn't updated anything in three years. This is a big deal for me, obviously, as we all want to get hired someday! (I did contact them, and they were helpful in a general sense, but could not provide hard numbers.)

Duke looks like it is full of great and interesting people. I am wondering if you can clue me in as to the following:

What has been your success in finding an internship? Where has the Sanford name helped / hurt?

What percentage of Sanford students attended Duke - caliber undergraduate colleges?

How does perceived placement strength compare with GPPI and UChicago?

How is Sanford perceived by the other professional schools at Duke (Law, Biz)?

How kindly do further graduate programs (i.e. law school, PhD) look upon Sanford's MPP?

Thanks very much.

[tammy-san]

What percentage of Sanford students attended Duke - caliber undergraduate colleges?

I know you are trying to perhaps gauge the selectivity/academic quality of the program, but I don't necessarily think you should judge based on how many people went to Ivy League-ish schools.

I'm sure if they were admitted, the Sanford admissions people felt they were of good caliber/potential, regardless of where they went for undergrad.

Edited March 9, 2010 by tammy-san

[Paradoxex22]

Greetings Bastille,

The Sanford School cohort is enjoying spring break this week, so stilesg57 may be enjoying the finer points of life.

I am a second year student at the Sanford School, so hopefully I can help answer some of your questions in lieu of his presence. I'm also better positioned to answer some of your questions, as I've been through many of the processes about which you are asking. Stilesg57 may still be in the midst of the process.

Finding an internship - The Sanford School/Duke name is well-known with many graduates in high level positions. Washington, DC, in particular is rife with Duke and Sanford School grads. Last year 15-20 students interned in DC at a variety of governmental institutions. We had multiple placements at OMB, GAO, State, and other governmental departments. Some of my personal friends also worked at reputable think tanks, advocacy groups, and other policy organizations. I personally interned at OMB, so I am most aware of Duke's presence there.

Duke also does well internationally. The Sanford School has a program that places individuals focused on international development and policy with high level organizations (ILO, UN, etc) in Geneva, Switzerland. We also had more than a couple individuals find placements with organizations in Africa. I also have friends who worked at very high profile organizations in Rome, Moscow, and Central America. If you want specifics, email me and I will see what I can do.

It also bears mentions that we had people interning in Durham, of course, but also New York City and around San Francisco.

Proximity matters when picking a school, but only to an extent. If you want to work in California, then Duke will not be as well-known there. There is a strong misconception, however, that the DC schools enjoy a huge advantage for placing people in DC. What I have found and heard is that many departments value non-DC school graduates, in part because of the structure of the DC programs. GW and Georgetown are work-focused academic programs. A lot of government agencies still value the more traditional academic experience, and target those school for summer internships. So Duke will not limit you in the nation's capital. If anything, the fanatical loyalty of the alumni is a bonus.

Undergraduate institutions - I can't be too specific here, but we have plenty of Ivy League grads as well as comparable credentials (Stanford, etc). I graduated from UNC personally, and I have found the caliber of my colleagues to be exceptional. I will also second what has been said...in a program like Sanford, experience means at least as much as undergraduate pedigree. While all cohorts will have superstars and those who ask one question too many, you'll find that the diversity of opinion and experience makes the experience incredibly fulfilling wherever you go.

Comparison to GPPI and Harris - You're asking me to wade in dangerous waters, here. People defend where they went to school. They willingly engage in cognitive dissonance, as you've aptly termed. GPPI is a different mentality and experience than most graduate schools. If you are sure that you want to be in DC and want to work in a federal department, than GPPI is a great place to be. I appreciate the diversity of locales personally (I worked in DC before leaving for graduate school), but it is your choice.

Harris is renowned as a terrifically quantitative program. The reputation of the program is sound, and I believe its reputation is similar to Duke's. The weather is not as nice, but you may prefer Chicago to Durham/Chapel Hill (big city vs. college towns). Honestly I would decide based on my preference for environment and the money situation. SIPA is a totally different basket, but you didn't ask about that.

Perception of Sanford by other Duke Schools - Sanford's cohorts are Fuqua (business school), Nicholas (environmental management school), and the law school. There is no pretension among the programs, and those schools readily allow Sanford students to take their classes . Clearly they show a preference for their own students when space is limited, but recently they have even been reserving spots in popular classes for Sanford students to fill. Cross-enrollment is an area that I have seen Sanford grow in tremendously just in my time here. I actually think it is one of the school's strong suits now.

Further education - I'm limited as to what I can say here as well given the number of students who choose this path. By design most MPP students chose a professional program for a reason. However, when students do decide to pursue further education, the Sanford degree serves them well. I know of a couple of students pursuing MBAs (both at Duke, last I heard) after they receive their MPP degree. I also know of one student who has decided to pursue a PhD in Public Policy, and the admittances from which that person is choosing would make the most elitist individual blush. None of this considers the plethora of individuals who are dual-enrolled in our program from the start (~10 students in my class) at Duke, UNC, or even Georgetown in other programs.

All of these cited examples are from my class of around 45 students. So, I'd like to think we are doing well. In considering any graduate program, I would stress one thing: distance is not everything. Schools not in DC do just fine in DC, and this goes for the Ford School, Harris, and the LBJ school too for that matter. How the school positions itself is most important. The Goldman school, for instance, is very highly rated, but it places very few individuals in DC each year. Why? Because the school by design focuses on California state government. If a school is focused on training students for policy work in places like DC, than the institutions there will find a way to reach those students.

Just think, if you were running a business, why wouldn't you reach out to ensure you were recruiting the best talent? The government/most NGOs work the same way.

If you have any specific questions about the examples I've cited, feel free to ask here or over PM. I hope this is helpful.

[wooldogg]

Very helpful! thanks Paradox

I'm interested in what you said here: "Harris is renowned as a terrifically quantitative program. The reputation of the program is sound, and I believe its reputation is similar to Duke's."

How do you find the quantitative coursework? In my impression, Duke has a less quantitative and more management-oriented program. (I've probably picked that up from someone on these boards.) Do you agree?

[Paradoxex22]

Everything is subjective. With that caveat out of the way...

Most people view Duke as being less quantitative because Duke does not tend to stress that side of the program. Ironically, most people leave Duke feeling that it is quantitatively rigorous. I think part of this effect is explained by the fact that many individuals come to Duke not expecting a strong emphasis on economics and statistics. Part of it is also explained by the fact that Duke views a strong quantitative foundation as essential to proper analytical policy making.

At Duke you will take two semesters of policy-centric statistics, one of which will focus on research study design. Both semester will make weekly use of STATA, and the second will involve the drafting of your own statistical studies. You will also take two semesters of economics, both of which are graphical in nature and centered on policy implications. After those first two semesters, you can take more advanced research design and implementation courses (one or more each semester until you graduate, actually) that focus on advanced statistical concepts. There are also a plethora of topic-oriented economics courses to take. If that were not enough, your spring consulting project and your master's project can also focus on quantitative analysis, and the faculty are more than willing (in my experience) to support these studies with their expertise.

The students at Duke typically have the Goldilocks approach to the first semester of statistics (some think it is too easy, some too hard, some just right), but most agree that the second semester of statistics is challenging and rewarding. Duke's program is geared to illustrating how program evaluation using statistical analysis is key to good policy making. These are not PhD-level statistics courses (though you are completely free and able to enroll in statistics department courses), but they are incredibly functional...and that is what a professional program should be I think.

I hope this clarifies your concern a little. I should say that I do not know the Harris program. My impression is that individuals who want more of an advanced quantitative grasp on economics especially tend to go to the Harris school. Comparied to Chicago, Duke's program may be more management-focused. That's just a relative assertion, not an absolute one.

[tammy-san]

Sooooo.....rumor has it you can negotiate for more funding. But looking back at some of the old posts, it seemed that it only applied with the Nick school? Can I be enlightened?

[ugachaca]

I must say, i think i made a mistake not applying to Sanford; it sounds like a great program. Perhaps i let my feelings about duke basketball get in the way of rational thought!

[dagger]

Sooooo.....rumor has it you can negotiate for more funding. But looking back at some of the old posts, it seemed that it only applied with the Nick school? Can I be enlightened?

I can speak for experience that it applies to Sanford. Essentially, you're provided an opportunity to detail the funding packages you received from other schools. Then, the Financial Advisor looks at similar tiered schools and compares funding packages. I received a lucrative offer from Syracuse that justified an increase at Duke. However, the Financial Advisor felt a few packages I received were from lower tiered schools and they subsequently did not factor into his decision.

Stiles or Paradoxex, did you all go through this as well?

[mulberry]

Dagger, I see your signature says you are attending Michigan. Can you explain why you chose Michigan over the other schools like Duke, Chicago, GPPI, CMU, and others? As the decisions are coming in, I find myself constantly torn between different programs.

[dagger]

Dagger, I see your signature says you are attending Michigan. Can you explain why you chose Michigan over the other schools like Duke, Chicago, GPPI, CMU, and others? As the decisions are coming in, I find myself constantly torn between different programs.

Hi Mulberry,

Great question! I had similar struggles last year. I think a discussion of other schools would hijack this thread. However, I do think you'll find the following topics from last year useful for your decision. You can find my own, as well as many other applicants opinions on differing schools. In fact, these threads probably deserve a bump - it would probably be useful for 2010 applicants. There's also threads on many other popular schools, but I had trouble locating each.

Edited March 12, 2010 by dagger

[mulberry]

Hi Mulberry,

Great question! I had similar struggles last year. I think a discussion of other schools would hijack this thread. However, I do think you'll find the following topics from last year useful for your decision. You can find my own, as well as many other applicants opinions on differing schools. In fact, these threads probably deserve a bump - it would probably be useful for 2010 applicants. There's also threads on many other popular schools, but I had trouble locating each.

Thanks Dagger!

[stilesg57]

Hi all,

Sorry I've been away for several days, I wish I had a better excuse but I've just been catching up on a mountain of work (so much for spring "break").

Paradox has a great point with the caveat that "everything is subjective," so it's important not to take the boards or alums or open house weekends or US News as gospel. That said, it's a good thing when you agree pretty much 100% with someone else in your program who has an entirely different background, is at a different point in the program (2nd year vs. 1st), has an entirely different skill set (Paradox could teach the stats class that I struggled to pull a B- in), and has different goals.

It's interesting for me to hear that a 2nd year has seen a difference in Sanford's openness with other programs. I don't see that because, frankly, in my short experience Sanford has been almost completely transparent with the other professional schools. I've taken a class at the business school (Fuqua), the environment school (Nicholas), the engineering school (Pratt), and as of next semester I'll be taking Environmental Law at the law school. I have not run into a single issue with this - not one. So its interesting to hear that there's been improvement on that front in the recent past.

As for a couple of the other questions...

I did not ask for additional funds for a couple reasons. First, up until the deadline to request additional aid I believed I was likely not going to go to Sanford. Second, while the package was smaller than some of my other offers it was bigger than most, and I didn't feel right asking for more (I would not recommend doing this again - poverty changes your sense of personal morality a bit). Finally, I didn't get a huge aid package from then-first-choice Michigan until VERY late in the acceptance process, well after the Duke deadline to ask for more funds had passed. So while I didn't ask for additional aid, I would encourage anyone to do so if you have other good offers.

BTW, while I would have about $20k less debt had I gone to Michigan, I can't say that thought has kept me up for a single night since orientation week at Sanford. I like Sanford, and I'm about 95% glad I'm here instead of Ford

While I also feel a little on edge talking about other schools since I didn't get to visit many of them outside of places I'd lived since undergrad (I did see, over the course of a couple years, all the DCs, UW Evans, UCSD, UCLA, Princeton, and CU Denver), I feel a little better after talking to classmates who got to attend several of the open houses last year. Interesting enough, one of the top two or three strongest quant students we have in my class turned down Harris after visiting. There were enough quant options for advanced students here at Duke (let's just say we haven't been in a single econ or stats class together - he's on the advanced track and I most definitely am not!) and he liked the rest of the program better. He really liked Sanford's facilities better; frankly I've heard that from every person in our class who visited Harris. Personally, I took Harris out of the running pretty quickly because I didn't feel comfortable with the required quant load (not necessarily harder classes, just more of them), I didn't get any funding whatsoever, and I don't want to live/work in Chicago or the Midwest where their alumni base is the strongest.

[wooldogg]

Thanks, Stiles. What is the "Advanced track" at Sanford? I haven't seen any mention of it in the MPP materials on the website.

Also, what do you mean exactly when you say people liked the facilities better at Sanford? Do you mean the campus/buildings?

[stilesg57]

Thanks, Stiles. What is the "Advanced track" at Sanford? I haven't seen any mention of it in the MPP materials on the website.

Also, what do you mean exactly when you say people liked the facilities better at Sanford? Do you mean the campus/buildings?

The advanced track works like this:

You are required to take two microecon courses and two stats courses. If you are a quant whiz you can test out of the first class of each pretty easily - about a quarter of my cohort did. For the next semester it is heavily encouraged that everyone take the standard micro and stats courses as they get significantly more difficult and are focused on policy applications; however, if you can show that there are better classes offered for your ability level (often deep in the bowels of the Economics and/or Mathematics departments) and you have the knowledge to test out of the standard courses, you can take harder ones. 2 people from my class are doing that. Both are numbers guys and have strong finance backgrounds (one of them is one of the aforementioned classmates who chose Sanford over Harris after visiting both).

As for "facilities," the condition of the Harris building is what they were referring to. Harris is supposedly pretty run down and scheduled to be moved into a new building in the next few years. Just from the pictures you can tell it's not on par with the (much newer) Sanford or Ford buildings. I hear the rest of the U Chicago campus is nice though.

Edited March 16, 2010 by stilesg57

[briepea]

Hi all,

Sorry I've been away for several days, I wish I had a better excuse but I've just been catching up on a mountain of work (so much for spring "break").

Paradox has a great point with the caveat that "everything is subjective," so it's important not to take the boards or alums or open house weekends or US News as gospel. That said, it's a good thing when you agree pretty much 100% with someone else in your program who has an entirely different background, is at a different point in the program (2nd year vs. 1st), has an entirely different skill set (Paradox could teach the stats class that I struggled to pull a B- in), and has different goals.

It's interesting for me to hear that a 2nd year has seen a difference in Sanford's openness with other programs. I don't see that because, frankly, in my short experience Sanford has been almost completely transparent with the other professional schools. I've taken a class at the business school (Fuqua), the environment school (Nicholas), the engineering school (Pratt), and as of next semester I'll be taking Environmental Law at the law school. I have not run into a single issue with this - not one. So its interesting to hear that there's been improvement on that front in the recent past.

As for a couple of the other questions...

I did not ask for additional funds for a couple reasons. First, up until the deadline to request additional aid I believed I was likely not going to go to Sanford. Second, while the package was smaller than some of my other offers it was bigger than most, and I didn't feel right asking for more (I would not recommend doing this again - poverty changes your sense of personal morality a bit). Finally, I didn't get a huge aid package from then-first-choice Michigan until VERY late in the acceptance process, well after the Duke deadline to ask for more funds had passed. So while I didn't ask for additional aid, I would encourage anyone to do so if you have other good offers.

BTW, while I would have about $20k less debt had I gone to Michigan, I can't say that thought has kept me up for a single night since orientation week at Sanford. I like Sanford, and I'm about 95% glad I'm here instead of Ford

While I also feel a little on edge talking about other schools since I didn't get to visit many of them outside of places I'd lived since undergrad (I did see, over the course of a couple years, all the DCs, UW Evans, UCSD, UCLA, Princeton, and CU Denver), I feel a little better after talking to classmates who got to attend several of the open houses last year. Interesting enough, one of the top two or three strongest quant students we have in my class turned down Harris after visiting. There were enough quant options for advanced students here at Duke (let's just say we haven't been in a single econ or stats class together - he's on the advanced track and I most definitely am not!) and he liked the rest of the program better. He really liked Sanford's facilities better; frankly I've heard that from every person in our class who visited Harris. Personally, I took Harris out of the running pretty quickly because I didn't feel comfortable with the required quant load (not necessarily harder classes, just more of them), I didn't get any funding whatsoever, and I don't want to live/work in Chicago or the Midwest where their alumni base is the strongest.

Can anyone enlighten me about how exactly this asking/negotiating for additional aid process works? Who exactly would I need to talk to? I haven't seen or heard anything from Sanford about how to go about this or a deadline for doing so (as stilesg57 refers to). Or is the possibility of negotiating off the table this year, given the economy? I really hadn't planned on asking about getting more money because I was quite happy with the funding package I originally got from Duke. However, GPPI recently made me a significantly better offer, which really complicates things because (after visiting both schools) I'm more excited about Duke's program but it's hard to walk away from Georgetown's offer...

Edited April 2, 2010 by briepea

[pajarero]

Can anyone enlighten me about how exactly this asking/negotiating for additional aid process works? Who exactly would I need to talk to? I haven't seen or heard anything from Sanford about how to go about this or a deadline for doing so (as stilesg57 refers to). Or is the possibility of negotiating off the table this year, given the economy? I really hadn't planned on asking about getting more money because I was quite happy with the funding package I originally got from Duke. However, GPPI recently made me a significantly better offer, which really complicates things because (after visiting both schools) I'm more excited about Duke's program but it's hard to walk away from Georgetown's offer...

I was accepted to Sanford's MPP program for this fall. Got a scholarship offer, but not too large. Would've still been left with $30K in loans for the first year. I emailed the financial aid office to try to ask for more, but I was basically told: last year the office had a different staff and explicitly mentioned the renegotiation of aid in the original admissions letters. This year, they are not negotiating aid, but rather making their best offer from the beginning. So in sum, they would not consider giving me more aid. Hope this discouraging bit of information helps. In my case, I have decided not to attend Sanford because of its cost.

[fadeindreams]

Finally, I didn't get a huge aid package from then-first-choice Michigan until VERY late in the acceptance process, well after the Duke deadline to ask for more funds had passed. So while I didn't ask for additional aid, I would encourage anyone to do so if you have other good offers.

What do you mean by "very late"? Was it before or after April 15th? I've been admitted to Ford, it's my first choice and I have no aid.

By the way, I hope that Sanford finds out how good of a recruiter you are for them and pays you for it! You've provided a lot of really excellent and interesting information. Heck, I'm interested in Sanford even though I didn't apply.

[AdrianPrime]

First of all, I wanted to say how helpful this thread has been. I've been getting really excited about Sanford ever since Admitted Students Day, and there has been a lot of good, honest information on this board to help the confused and conflicted soul.

Personally, I thought all the Student Ambassadors did a phenomenal job at making everyone feel welcome.

For those currently at Sanford:

1. Do any of you work while in school to supplement your income/experience? Or do you find that your academic schedule is too onerous? If you work, do you find the opportunities in Durham/Chapel Hill limited? I have some funding offered from Duke which will help, but I may still want to try and work to offset potential debt. I don't have good offers from Maryland or GW, so I wasn't going to try to negotiate for more fellowship/assistanceship money.

2. My aid letter mentions that I may expect to receive the same amount of aid during my second year. Obviously without getting into raw numbers, have any of the 2nd years on this board experienced an increase/decrease in their second year funding? What steps can you take to set yourself up for better aid the second year? I'm trying to get a sense of what 2 years might cost me.

3. Where do you live in the area? Upon visiting, I found Durham REALLY hit-and-miss. One street would look really nice, the next would look very sketchy. As someone who has lived on the West Coast most of my life, it is very important to me that this big move takes me somewhere that I feel safe (yet don't break the bank). I only had a day and half (and no rental car) to experience the place, so I didn't see the outer neighbors, suburbs, nor Chapel Hill or other local towns...

Thank you in advance for your feedback!

[stilesg57]

Sorry I've been away for a few days all, been a pretty crazy week (not to mention them Blue Devils!!!)

Let me take a few of the questions:

I emailed the financial aid office to try to ask for more, but I was basically told: last year the office had a different staff and explicitly mentioned the renegotiation of aid in the original admissions letters. This year, they are not negotiating aid, but rather making their best offer from the beginning.

This is true - they've changed the process this year and are giving their best aid offer right off the bat. I think it's a better (and more professional, frankly) way of doing it rather than outright encouraging haggling like they did last year. But it does cut back on negotiating for more help of course. I'm sorry cost issues pushed you away from Sanford, best of luck wherever you're headed!

What do you mean by "very late"? Was it before or after April 15th? I've been admitted to Ford, it's my first choice and I have no aid.

By the way, I hope that Sanford finds out how good of a recruiter you are for them and pays you for it! You've provided a lot of really excellent and interesting information. Heck, I'm interested in Sanford even though I didn't apply.

"very late" was like the day before or day of the April 15th deadline as I recall. They really did come through with a great package at that point though. I committed Michigan for the 4/15 deadline then changed to Sanford about three or four weeks later. Good luck with Ford or wherever you decided to go - I'm sure you'll do well. And thanks for thinking I'm doing a good job - Sanford is a pretty easy place to say nice things about

1. Do any of you work while in school to supplement your income/experience? Or do you find that your academic schedule is too onerous? If you work, do you find the opportunities in Durham/Chapel Hill limited? I have some funding offered from Duke which will help, but I may still want to try and work to offset potential debt. I don't have good offers from Maryland or GW, so I wasn't going to try to negotiate for more fellowship/assistanceship money.

2. My aid letter mentions that I may expect to receive the same amount of aid during my second year. Obviously without getting into raw numbers, have any of the 2nd years on this board experienced an increase/decrease in their second year funding? What steps can you take to set yourself up for better aid the second year? I'm trying to get a sense of what 2 years might cost me.

3. Where do you live in the area? Upon visiting, I found Durham REALLY hit-and-miss. One street would look really nice, the next would look very sketchy. As someone who has lived on the West Coast most of my life, it is very important to me that this big move takes me somewhere that I feel safe (yet don't break the bank). I only had a day and half (and no rental car) to experience the place, so I didn't see the outer neighbors, suburbs, nor Chapel Hill or other local towns...

Hey Adrian! Hope you made it back safe and got some rest

1. Nope. No time. I don't think it's even allowed. A couple people - like 5 or so - had tutoring gigs or sports ref'ing part-time jobs when the program started but they've pretty much all dropped them. Really, you CAN'T work and be a full-time student at Sanford, there aren't enough hours in the week. The closest you can do is a TA/GA/RA assistantship for the semester that pays ~$4k (which is REALLY good $ per hour) in your 2nd and 3rd (and possibly 4th) semesters, but I'm at the point I may not do it next semester just because of the time issue. This is just a different program than say the DC ones that have you working internships while you're going to school.

2. Don't know - not a 2nd year yet

3. Hit-and-miss is probably a good way to describe Durham. There are some rough patches, but the "hits" really are nice. This is a niceer place than I expected, really. I hear you about being nervous walking into a place you don't know - I also moved here from San Diego and I just showed up three days before classes started, got a hotel room, and craigslisted my way around about 5 houses/apartments till I found this one I live in a house 4 miles from Sanford - 10 min. drive, 35 min. bike, 50 min. bus ride. I'm in the bottom floor of the house and a Duke PhD is in the upper floor; each floor has two bedrooms. $600/month, all utilities save electricity and internet included - so with a roommate I'm paying about $330 a month (absolutely insanely cheap!). It's a nice area and I've never felt unsafe or anything in my neighborhood.

[AdrianPrime]

Hey Adrian! Hope you made it back safe and got some rest

1. Nope. No time. I don't think it's even allowed. A couple people - like 5 or so - had tutoring gigs or sports ref'ing part-time jobs when the program started but they've pretty much all dropped them. Really, you CAN'T work and be a full-time student at Sanford, there aren't enough hours in the week. The closest you can do is a TA/GA/RA assistantship for the semester that pays ~$4k (which is REALLY good $ per hour) in your 2nd and 3rd (and possibly 4th) semesters, but I'm at the point I may not do it next semester just because of the time issue. This is just a different program than say the DC ones that have you working internships while you're going to school.

2. Don't know - not a 2nd year yet

3. Hit-and-miss is probably a good way to describe Durham. There are some rough patches, but the "hits" really are nice. This is a niceer place than I expected, really. I hear you about being nervous walking into a place you don't know - I also moved here from San Diego and I just showed up three days before classes started, got a hotel room, and craigslisted my way around about 5 houses/apartments till I found this one I live in a house 4 miles from Sanford - 10 min. drive, 35 min. bike, 50 min. bus ride. I'm in the bottom floor of the house and a Duke PhD is in the upper floor; each floor has two bedrooms. $600/month, all utilities save electricity and internet included - so with a roommate I'm paying about $330 a month (absolutely insanely cheap!). It's a nice area and I've never felt unsafe or anything in my neighborhood.

Thank you for the feedback Stiles. I'm also in San Diego, so it is nice to hear the perspective of a former local! I've accepted Sanford's offer and will be moving there in August. What area do you live in? I think I may also find myself "hoteling" it before I find something, unless I successfully arrange something site-unseen. I'll be driving from coast to coast for this move, so I'll have a lot of planning ahead of me.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the Fall!!!!! Exciting times!

[mppfall2010]

taken from my post on a different thread:

can anyone else make a case for duke or chicago over the other? in terms of reputation, do you think chicago will open more doors? and with regards to duke's very small class size (~50 students) do you ever feel like this is a negative? while i know chicago is known for being more quant based, does duke's curriculum live up in the eyes of an employer? and can anyone speak to their career services, in terms of getting placed NOT in DC or north carolina post graduation (ie. NYC, Chicago, West Coast)? i also get the feeling duke offers less electives and more core. can anybody speak to that, and whether it's been a good thing or a bad thing? i agree that the sense of personal attention and community at duke was/is outstanding. so much so that for me, you don't really realize that it's something you want out of a grad school until a school like duke offers it to you. and then when you stack that against the cold, hard, and relatively unfriendly atmospheres of some other schools, they don't compare. but how much should that really weigh in?

i was hoping our resident sanford guru (stiles) would be able to help out with this one. especially since i know you chose a different school and ended up changing to sanford. but anyone else, too!

[stilesg57]

Thank you for the feedback Stiles. I'm also in San Diego, so it is nice to hear the perspective of a former local! I've accepted Sanford's offer and will be moving there in August. What area do you live in? I think I may also find myself "hoteling" it before I find something, unless I successfully arrange something site-unseen. I'll be driving from coast to coast for this move, so I'll have a lot of planning ahead of me.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the Fall!!!!! Exciting times!

Congrats man! It was great meeting you at Open House; you'll do well in this program.

As for housing questions: you should've homestayed with me, you'd know how awesome my little neighborhood is I'm at 2201 Caroline Dr. - feel free to google map it and see about where it is. Most people live south or east of campus; I'm one of the holdouts on the west side (can't get the CA out of me I guess). I'm 4 miles and 3 stoplights from the Sanford parking lot, about a 10-12 minute drive down 751 through the Duke Forest.

Tell you what, you've got my email address so feel free to ask me about any places you're looking at and I can give you the lowdown. The big decisions are apartment v. house, then location, then price IMO. I came out here sight-unseen with three days to go till classes and it worked out. Not that I'd recommend that, but it just shows that even last minute searching can be successful.

Keep in touch and I'll see you in the fall. Unless this internship in Seal Beach works out.....

[stilesg57]

taken from my post on a different thread:

can anyone else make a case for duke or chicago over the other? in terms of reputation, do you think chicago will open more doors? and with regards to duke's very small class size (~50 students) do you ever feel like this is a negative? while i know chicago is known for being more quant based, does duke's curriculum live up in the eyes of an employer? and can anyone speak to their career services, in terms of getting placed NOT in DC or north carolina post graduation (ie. NYC, Chicago, West Coast)? i also get the feeling duke offers less electives and more core. can anybody speak to that, and whether it's been a good thing or a bad thing? i agree that the sense of personal attention and community at duke was/is outstanding. so much so that for me, you don't really realize that it's something you want out of a grad school until a school like duke offers it to you. and then when you stack that against the cold, hard, and relatively unfriendly atmospheres of some other schools, they don't compare. but how much should that really weigh in?

i was hoping our resident sanford guru (stiles) would be able to help out with this one. especially since i know you chose a different school and ended up changing to sanford. but anyone else, too!

Someone say my name?

As someone who was very excited to get into Harris - and equally crushed when I realized that without any financial aid I could never justify attending there - here's what I've come up with on Chicago. These are the things that made me feel better in turning Harris down and/or things I've learned about the programs since last fall:

1. Harris is more of a feeder school to all the big Chicago consulting firms than Sanford is to all the big Durham consulting firms

2. Harris alumni are located primarily in Chicago, the greater midwest, and DC - seemingly in that order.

3. Chicago's a tad more of an academic program; Sanford seems a tad more like a professional/management program (I feel comfortable saying the same about Ford BTW).

4. More quant courses are required in the core curriculum, but this doesn't mean it's a quant-specific program while Sanford's pumping out a bunch of philosophers. You can get a much more quantitative program at Sanford than Chicago's core curriculum if that's your thing (taking advance-track quant courses, courses in the math and econ departments, etc). Our three standout quant guys in my class all looked at Chicago, and obviously they all came here.

5. Two of these quant peeps visited Chicago and mentioned that the facilities at Harris are not terribly nice (Sanford's are); I believe they're building some new facilities for Harris in the next few years.

6. Chicago has a conservative reputation that draws certain candidates there. A good college friend of mine who's doing her PhD at Berkeley in PoliSci says the U Chicago people can be an "interesting" crowd, and that its a noticeable trait.

7. Living expenses are quite a bit lower in Durham than in Hyde Park.

8. Their basketball team sucks

So it depends what you're looking for. If you're looking specifically for a PhD feeder program, I'd probably recommend Chicago. If you specifically want to work in consulting or in the city of Chicago itself, I'd probably recommend Harris. Otherwise, I kinda like Duke - surprise surprise

As for some of your other questions:

Sanford's reputation will do nothing but help you in the job market. Employers recruit on campus and eat up Sanford grads. It's cool seeing this from a removed perspective with the 2nd years right now; even in this horrendous job market they're all doing pretty well. I don't think Chicago holds any advantage in this regard frankly. The Sanford grad placement and alumni network speaks for itself. If you want to work in the federal government or in DC this is a GREAT place to be. That said, if you want out of NC or DC, you do have to work at it a bit (I'm in that boat - its becoming less of a problem as I search harder for internships frankly). Career services is not oriented towards the west coast, but that hasn't stopped me from getting deep into the interview process for internships west of Denver.

The small cohort size (~50) has benefits and drawbacks, just as a larger cohort size does. The benefits are you get to be really close friends with a bunch of interesting people. I knew everyone in my class in about a week and all the 2nd years within a month. It's cool to be plugged in with a group of go-getters like these. The friendly atmosphere is also helped, as is access to - and personal attention from - your professors. Downsides are that is not as broad of an experience pool as there would be if the program were larger; as an enviro guy I recognize that there'd be some value in having ~30 tree huggers in my class instead of ~15. Also, you see the same people every day. Honestly, this is really a personal atmosphere/preference issue. I went to a small liberal arts school for undergrad, and I like the small class sizes at Duke - just the way I'm wired I guess.

As we're knocking on the door of the deadline here, I would encourage anyone to email me directly with questions as I'll likely be able to get to them faster. I'm at garrett dot stiles at duke.edu

Good luck with the decisions everyone, just remember that if you're looking between a bunch of great schools like these you can't lose!

[briepea]

Stiles, you mentioned before that you accepted Ford for the April 15th deadline last year and then later changed over to Sanford. How was that even possible?? Did Duke have a later notification deadline last year?