Weak academic record. To continue or not continue

[Watashi]

I didn't do well in my undergrad, and it wasn't an ivy, but I ultimately want to get a research position in philosophy like many on this forum. My question is, how realistic is it to come back from the position i'm in, or should I just quit now?

I went to a university that is ranked around 20 over the years by PGR and graduated with a 2.795 gpa, some of that due to financial and familial circumstances. Since then I've taken 5 undergrad courses at UCLA as a non-traditional student, getting As and A-s that amount to a 3.85 gpa so far. I also switched from being interested in continental to analytic and my coursework from undergrad to UCLA shows that. As of now i'm planning to continue taking undergrad and graduate courses at UCLA to strengthen my application for an MA.

I understand that to get a research position, realistically you should get a phd from a top 10 or 20 university. So considering my position, is it possible to get into a top MA program and do well enough there that I could stand a chance at getting into a top 10 or 20 phd program? Or is my undergrad record simply something that cant be overlooked?

[hector549]

15 hours ago, Watashi said:

I didn't do well in my undergrad, and it wasn't an ivy, but I ultimately want to get a research position in philosophy like many on this forum. My question is, how realistic is it to come back from the position i'm in, or should I just quit now?

I went to a university that is ranked around 20 over the years by PGR and graduated with a 2.795 gpa, some of that due to financial and familial circumstances. Since then I've taken 5 undergrad courses at UCLA as a non-traditional student, getting As and A-s that amount to a 3.85 gpa so far. I also switched from being interested in continental to analytic and my coursework from undergrad to UCLA shows that. As of now i'm planning to continue taking undergrad and graduate courses at UCLA to strengthen my application for an MA.

I understand that to get a research position, realistically you should get a phd from a top 10 or 20 university. So considering my position, is it possible to get into a top MA program and do well enough there that I could stand a chance at getting into a top 10 or 20 phd program? Or is my undergrad record simply something that cant be overlooked?

A few thoughts and questions:

1. It's not exactly related to your question, but it's not really realistic to aim for a research job in philosophy, unfortunately, even if you're going to a top program. Jobs like that are incredibly hard to come by these days. For example, I went to a program ranked in the PGR top-5, where I did my undergrad, and I was friends with a number of the graduate students. Of the 4 I know pretty well who graduated in the past few years, one is at a post-doc, one left academia, one has a teaching position at a SLAC, and one has a research job at a low-ranked PGR program. Again, this is at a top-5 program. Check out placements for top programs; most people are getting teaching jobs if they're getting TT jobs at all. Teaching jobs--definitely hard to get, but definitely possible. Research jobs--very, very difficult to obtain.

2. Is the 2.8 an overall GPA, or just a major GPA? What was your major? It's going to look worse if your low GPA is in philosophy courses than if it's in, say, the mathematical sciences. Were the courses in which you did poorly all during a certain part of your education? E.g., were they all during one or two terms in the middle, due to extenuating circumstances? Or, e.g., did you start out doing very poorly, but end strong? These kinds of situations are easier to explain than if you consistently did badly throughout your undergrad.

3. You have the right idea by taking some classes to show that you can do good work. However, what sort of phil classes are these? Are they upper-level courses?

4. It's generally a good idea to get your letter-writers to do the explaining for you when you apply if you have some kind of mark on your record. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to getting into a program, though, even if you have strong letters, a great sample, and have proven your ability to succeed in upper-level philosophy courses at UCLA is that many graduate schools will have a minimum-GPA requirement that all applicants will have to meet. Even if the phil department is willing to take you, they may not be able to based on the admissions requirement from the graduate school. I'd look into this more if I were in your shoes. You may be under those thresholds. I'm not sure if there's a way around that or not.

5. There are stories of people who have GPAs in the low 3's (i.e. 3.1, 3.2, etc) getting into an MA, and then doing well. In this thread from a few years ago, one person had approximately 3.1 in undergrad, went to an MA, got something like a 3.9, then got into Arizona: https://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/52008-anyone-here-have-a-low-gpa-success-story/?tab=comments#comment-1058094403

edit: this same person (the Arizona student) claims in another thread to have had a 2.9ish GPA...which is a bit closer to you: https://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/56117-chances-with-a-291-gpa/?tab=comments#comment-1058153078

 

Your GPA is a little lower than that, but you've also done some additional coursework and done well. If you're set on trying, I'd say do more advanced coursework at UCLA, have the best letters possible, a great writing sample, excellent GREs, and apply to a range of MA programs. I'd also strongly recommend having a backup plan, because what you're thinking of attempting seems to me a long shot, in my honest opinion.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by hector549

[Watashi]

3 hours ago, hector549 said:

A few thoughts and questions:

1. It's not exactly related to your question, but it's not really realistic to aim for a research job in philosophy, unfortunately, even if you're going to a top program. Jobs like that are incredibly hard to come by these days. For example, I went to a program ranked in the PGR top-5, where I did my undergrad, and I was friends with a number of the graduate students. Of the 4 I know pretty well who graduated in the past few years, one is at a post-doc, one left academia, one has a teaching position at a SLAC, and one has a research job at a low-ranked PGR program. Again, this is at a top-5 program. Check out placements for top programs; most people are getting teaching jobs if they're getting TT jobs at all. Teaching jobs--definitely hard to get, but definitely possible. Research jobs--very, very difficult to obtain.

2. Is the 2.8 an overall GPA, or just a major GPA? What was your major? It's going to look worse if your low GPA is in philosophy courses than if it's in, say, the mathematical sciences. Were the courses in which you did poorly all during a certain part of your education? E.g., were they all during one or two terms in the middle, due to extenuating circumstances? Or, e.g., did you start out doing very poorly, but end strong? These kinds of situations are easier to explain than if you consistently did badly throughout your undergrad.

3. You have the right idea by taking some classes to show that you can do good work. However, what sort of phil classes are these? Are they upper-level courses?

4. It's generally a good idea to get your letter-writers to do the explaining for you when you apply if you have some kind of mark on your record. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to getting into a program, though, even if you have strong letters, a great sample, and have proven your ability to succeed in upper-level philosophy courses at UCLA is that many graduate schools will have a minimum-GPA requirement that all applicants will have to meet. Even if the phil department is willing to take you, they may not be able to based on the admissions requirement from the graduate school. I'd look into this more if I were in your shoes. You may be under those thresholds. I'm not sure if there's a way around that or not.

5. There are stories of people who have GPAs in the low 3's (i.e. 3.1, 3.2, etc) getting into an MA, and then doing well. In this thread from a few years ago, one person had approximately 3.1 in undergrad, went to an MA, got something like a 3.9, then got into Arizona: https://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/52008-anyone-here-have-a-low-gpa-success-story/?tab=comments#comment-1058094403

edit: this same person (the Arizona student) claims in another thread to have had a 2.9ish GPA...which is a bit closer to you: https://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/56117-chances-with-a-291-gpa/?tab=comments#comment-1058153078

 

Your GPA is a little lower than that, but you've also done some additional coursework and done well. If you're set on trying, I'd say do more advanced coursework at UCLA, have the best letters possible, a great writing sample, excellent GREs, and apply to a range of MA programs. I'd also strongly recommend having a backup plan, because what you're thinking of attempting seems to me a long shot, in my honest opinion.

 

 

1. I know, Im keeping that in mind and its the primary reason im asking this question. If its already tough enough for people who did well during their undergrad, should I just quit now?

2. That was the overall gpa, the major gpa is about the same at 2.76 gpa. I went to a community college for my first two years and transferred at around a 3.5 gpa, which didnt transfer over obviously. My last two years were spent mainly doing upper division philosophy courses, a grad seminar, and an independent study (which I failed because I couldnt get my paper to my professor. I have two F's, both in philosophy). My first two quarters I did well, but then the next two quarters are where I got my F's with a summer session between them where I didnt get an F. My last quarters I did better though not amazing. It was during that middle period where I had some problems financially and with my family, though it persisted until I graduated.

3. They have all been upper level. I havent taken lower level undergrad courses since community college. 

4. I've been looking into this. A place like Carnegie Mellon doesnt seem to have a minimum gpa for the philosophy department or general admissions for graduate studies, it seems to be left solely with the department. However for phd programs I don't know if the undergraduate gpa is what is considered for the minimum if the candidate has a MA on top of the BA or BS. For example Berkeley general admissions for graduate studies states for their second minimum requirement that "a satisfactory scholastic average, usually a minimum grade-point average (GPA) of 3.0 (B) on a 4.0 scale", but they dont say if it needs to come from the most recent degree of undergrad. 

As far as the last bit you said, why should I apply to a range of MA programs? Shouldnt I only apply to higher end MA programs, seeing as I have rely on that to get into a phd program?
Thank you for everything you've said. I appreciate all the input. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Watashi

[hector549]

49 minutes ago, Watashi said:

1. I know, Im keeping that in mind and its the primary reason im asking this question. If its already tough enough for people who did well during their undergrad, should I just quit now?

 I didn't mean to suggest that my point applies with any specificity to your low-GPA situation, just that if a TT research job is necessary for one's happiness and fulfillment after obtaining one's PhD in philosophy, then it might be time to rethink one's goals, because it's so unlikely that one will end up with a TT research job, even if one goes to a top program. My advice is just to consider if you'd be happy with a teaching job, possibly non-TT, or non-academic employment after the PhD.

49 minutes ago, Watashi said:

2. That was the overall gpa, the major gpa is about the same at 2.76 gpa. I went to a community college for my first two years and transferred at around a 3.5 gpa, which didnt transfer over obviously. My last two years were spent mainly doing upper division philosophy courses, a grad seminar, and an independent study (which I failed because I couldnt get my paper to my professor. I have two F's, both in philosophy). My first two quarters I did well, but then the next two quarters are where I got my F's with a summer session between them where I didnt get an F. My last quarters I did better though not amazing. It was during that middle period where I had some problems financially and with my family, though it persisted until I graduated.

3. They have all been upper level. I havent taken lower level undergrad courses since community college.

So it sounds as though your last two years were the ones in which you did badly. So you might be able to have your letter-writers explain why your first two years and your recent coursework at UCLA are more representative of your abilities (because of extenuating circumstances X, Y, Z).

49 minutes ago, Watashi said:

4. I've been looking into this. A place like Carnegie Mellon doesnt seem to have a minimum gpa for the philosophy department or general admissions for graduate studies, it seems to be left solely with the department. However for phd programs I don't know if the undergraduate gpa is what is considered for the minimum if the candidate has a MA on top of the BA or BS. For example Berkeley general admissions for graduate studies states for their second minimum requirement that "a satisfactory scholastic average, usually a minimum grade-point average (GPA) of 3.0 (B) on a 4.0 scale", but they dont say if it needs to come from the most recent degree of undergrad.

I looked at the graduate school at my own institution (I'm at one of the Leiter-ranked MAs), out of curiosity, and the requirement is a 2.75. There's also the option to do extra coursework to prove yourself if you're under the threshold. I suspect that institutions will vary, so you'll have to check each and, if you're under the required GPA, see if you can use your extra coursework to have that requirement waived.

I'd imagine that for PhD institutions, if you're applying with an MA, the minimum-GPA requirement would apply just to your MA, not to your undergrad. You might want to make sure of that however, with particular graduate schools.

49 minutes ago, Watashi said:

As far as the last bit you said, why should I apply to a range of MA programs? Shouldnt I only apply to higher end MA programs, seeing as I have rely on that to get into a phd program?

Thank you for everything you've said. I appreciate all the input. 

I mean that there are a range of more-and-less prestigious MA programs, even if you're just looking at Leiter's list of the top MAs. He ranks them according to a few tiers. So yeah, you should apply to Georgia State, UWM, NIU, etc (if they fit your interests), but also to Houston, Ohio U, Texas Tech, etc. Houston, TTU, et al are good programs too, with good placement, but they may also be less competitive than say, NIU or GSU, especially for funding. In your situation, I'd apply to as many of the good MA programs as you can.

Edited August 1, 2018 by hector549

[dgswaim]

With good letters and a strong sample I'd bet you can get into a good MA program, and then springboard to a pretty good PhD program. I know a lot of people in good PhD programs (including myself) with backgrounds similar to this.

[quineonthevine]

As far as I know, your community college GPA does count as part of the GPA that adcoms consider. Of course they care more about your upper-division coursework, but that substantially brings up your overall GPA. 

[Nopun]

Hi Watashi, I am someone applying this upcoming season in a similar situation to yourself. While I have a GPA just over 3.5 I have numerous W's in my freshman and sophomore year. My professors have told me that a very strong writing sample and letters of recommendation should be able to outweigh my weak record for most Masters programs. I have also reached out to a number of professors at programs I am interested in for feedback on some of my work that is related to their research. I have been happily surprised to be well received by most, with a number offering to help me work on my writing sample. Hope some of this advice can help you and good luck!  

[Watashi]

Sorry I havent responded in a few days. Health scare that turned out to be nothing haha.

On 8/1/2018 at 4:52 PM, hector549 said:

 My advice is just to consider if you'd be happy with a teaching job, possibly non-TT, or non-academic employment after the PhD.

 

Oh yes that's not a problem. I wont go into a pity story but im used to poverty. Being paid to teach philosophy at a community college sounds like a dream. Thanks again for saying all this.

What I was worried about was paying into these courses at UCLA and it being for nothing since it wouldnt aid me in getting into a decent MA program to then be able to teach philosophy at all, and then of course not being able to do research after a phd. I understand that its a long shot for anyone to do paid research, but Im not in this for the money. If this doesnt work out I would be happy teaching English in Japan, or several other jobs. I just keep reading on this forum, for good reason, that if you can do something else then do it, and I am conflicted between continuing my education now while I have the ball rolling and no dependents to worry about, or doing something else, because I most certainly can do something else. However, many coworkers have told me that they wished they had gone further in their education while they were still young, even if it cost them some of that time back then. 
 

Its difficult to see which advice to take.

On 8/2/2018 at 6:51 AM, dgswaim said:

With good letters and a strong sample I'd bet you can get into a good MA program, and then springboard to a pretty good PhD program. I know a lot of people in good PhD programs (including myself) with backgrounds similar to this.

That's encouraging to hear, thanks. I suppose the main struggle will be getting into the right program. Im mainly interested in logic right now, so im thinking going for a MS in logic at some place like Carnegie. That would be the ideal, though unlikely. 

On 8/2/2018 at 10:20 PM, quineonthevine said:

As far as I know, your community college GPA does count as part of the GPA that adcoms consider. Of course they care more about your upper-division coursework, but that substantially brings up your overall GPA. 

Oh really? Thats also good to hear. Maybe this isnt so hopeless after all haha.

 

9 hours ago, Nopun said:

Hi Watashi, I am someone applying this upcoming season in a similar situation to yourself. While I have a GPA just over 3.5 I have numerous W's in my freshman and sophomore year. My professors have told me that a very strong writing sample and letters of recommendation should be able to outweigh my weak record for most Masters programs. I have also reached out to a number of professors at programs I am interested in for feedback on some of my work that is related to their research. I have been happily surprised to be well received by most, with a number offering to help me work on my writing sample. Hope some of this advice can help you and good luck!  

Thats good to hear that they think something of your writing sample, thanks for what you said and best of luck to you

Edited August 4, 2018 by Watashi

[Duns Eith]

Hey Watashi, see my PM.

I will say this though:

I got into a good MA program. My undergrad GPA was 3.74 (in phil: 3.96), and my grad GPA was 4.0. I applied to 18 programs and I placed in an unranked PhD program. It's fierce competition.