Southern Baptist Sinkhole

[Spejo_Rolub]

Hi all. I'm new to Grad Cafe, but have been reading posts for some time.The advice and discussions of the collective whole have helped me quite a bit. For that, I thank you all.

Now, the bad news... 

I'm currently a ThM- OT student at Southwestern in Fort Worth. I completed my M. Div. from Southeastern in Wake Forest. I was a good Southern Baptist and, if things had remained as they were, would've gone on and done a PhD at Southwestern. But things have changed. I'm exploring new theological concepts that have shifted my worldview; concepts that any Southern Baptist or conservative would deem heretical. What was once a cozy, evangelical home for me has now become a liability.

I would still like to go on and pursue a PhD. I'm interested in a couple of areas in the OT: literary design, design patterns in narrative, and poetic metaphor. This dream is in jeopardy, primarily because I'm tied to SBC institutions that do not align with my beliefs. I think one user called attending an SBC school "the kiss of death" in academia, which I though was fitting.

I post on here for any advice you would have. I'm scheduled to finish the ThM in Spring 2020, so I'll be applying to PhD programs near and far in Fall of 2019. Do I have any shot whatsoever of getting into a program? I'm not talking about the Harvards, Yales, or Dukes; essentially, I'm looking at any decent program that will fund its PhD students. Any suggestions that would be a happy medium? Is there anything I could be doing right now to move from the SBC umbrella toward a less conservative foundation? 

Thanks, all. I've been stressing pretty heavily about this, so any crumb of advice you have will be more helpful than you know.

[NTAC321]

Gah, this is tricky.

 

How far along are you in the ThM? If you’re still 4 semesters away from finishing, I assume you’re not very far along in the program, in which case it might be wise to transfer or drop out. That might very well be terrible advice, but I’m not sure, so you should certainly ask around. Try talking to some former SBC folks (they’re everywhere) about your options. From what I know, it’s very tough to go from a seminary like that into a funded PhD program. Also, keep in mind that getting a PhD from a less than great program creates new problems once you’re done with the dissertation, since the job market is tough for everyone, even folks with unblemished CV’s.

 

Here’s what I might offer as a suggestion: transfer/leave Southwestern ASAP for another masters-granting institution. If you do an MA/MTS/MAR from a legitimate HB program like Harvard, Yale, Chicago, Duke, etc, you have a chance to go to a really good school after that degree. I know several folks who’ve gone this route after doing an M.DIv at places like Southwestern.

 

Honestly, I just don’t know if there’s a direct path from a SBC ThM to a legit PhD program, so the quicker you can get out of there, the better. If you need to stay local, you might even try transferring to TCU or Baylor.

 

Hope this helps. Best of luck.

[Deep Fried Angst]

It all depends on the program you want to get into. A top tier school is almost certainly out of the question like @NTAC321 said if you are graduating with your only masters from a seminary or SBC school. I would say an exception may be Hebrew Union in Cincinnati (and where to place it in the tiers is always up for debate). Second tier programs as well as seminaries that offer a PhD program in Hebrew Bible or at least a concentration in it may be an option as well (Fuller, Asbury, etc.). Some of these offer full scholarships and even stipends. 

The biggest issue you need to think about is not just where you will get it, but where you will want to teach after you get your PhD or if even that is the goal. If you are looking at going into vocational ministry but you just want the further education of a PhD, a lower tier school may suit your needs. You've made it clear that your current and previous institutions or for that matter almost any institution in which you would have connections from your SBC institutions is out of the question. In some sense, you are going to need a name that can help people overlook your previous education and to help you compete with other applicants who may have institutional affiliations or denominational affiliations which places you may be looking at teaching. For that reason, I would highly urge either the transfer route or looking into an additional MA/MTS/MAR to better your chances to get into a top tier school. 

You do also have the option of trying the UK route. Without denominational backing you would almost certainly be paying your way. That route comes with its own sets of hurdles, but it is available to you. 

[turktheman]

You've got some excellent advice here. It would be unlikely that someone from an SBC seminary would land in a top tier PhD program. PTS has in the past taken students from SEBTS, so that might be an option. You do have options though, and each one depends on your determination.

If you decide to finish out the ThM at SWBTS, you can apply for doctoral work outside of the US. This is where the majority of confessional students will land from conservative seminaries. Funding is almost non-existent unless you have GI Bill, willing to take out massive loans, or get your local church to back you. I wouldn't do it, personally. You can, however, find programs in South Africa and New Zealand that are funded and accept US Students. Oslo in New Zealand is one for sure. I'd check out Stellenbosch, Pretoria, and North-West University in South Africa. Canada might also be an option, but I am not as aware of their funding situation. 

You can also aim at more open-minded evangelical places like Fuller, TEDS, Wheaton, Westminister Theological Seminary, RTS, etc. SBC doesn't have an overly negative connotation at those places. Funded in these schools is not tremendous, but you could maybe hope for tuition to be covered. You might also consider some Catholic schools that may not be as concerned about the SBC sinkhole. Marquette could be one. 

If you decide to jump ship, you are still not guaranteed to land in a funded doctoral program. It is a gamble--probably financially and emotionally. I do know that Brite Divinity School (associated with TCU) has great funding for their ThM program. Vanderbilt just launched it's ThM program (https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2018/09/18/vanderbilt-divinity-to-offer-master-of-theology-degree/). It also promises guaranteed funding for it (who knows how much though). Do not do a ThM and pay much for it. (This game isn't worth it. Become a librarian or something else if you like university culture).   

You can also apply for MA degrees at various places. Again, Vanderbilt has good funding for their MDiv and the 1 year MA in Jewish Studies program. Yale Divinity School also makes attractive offers for their MA and MDiv programs. Notre Dame can offer full tuition plus a small stipend. So there are certainly options for you to take advantage of that might not cost you anything. 

In the end, it comes down to doubling down or doing something else. This is true for everyone of course, but if you are in a sinkhole, it might not be as easy for you to get out as someone who isn't in one. You can do a ThM or MA somewhere else, perhaps with little out of pocket cost. Apply for doctoral work, get in. Or you could bust and have wasted likely 2 years chasing a funded program. 

Not knowing your situation's full details, I would nonetheless say apply to PTS, Marquette, a funded foreign PhD program (or two), and a couple of those evangelical places (if you are still broadly in that category--SBC is hard right, so anything to the left would be better) for doctoral work. I'd also submit applications to Brite and Vanderbilt Divinity School for the ThM since they have funding. In addition, I would apply to YDS's MA in Bible or Second Temple Judaism, ND's MTS program, and Vanderbilt University's MA in Jewish Studies (wide program, but they do let people specialize in HB/Rabbinic Judaism). See what happens with acceptances and funding and go from there. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by turktheman

[Spejo_Rolub]

Each of you have been a tremendous help. Thank you so much. @NTAC321 as to your question, I'm in my very first semester. Hebrew Bible didn't emerge as an interest until after my M. Div., unfortunately.

From your collective advice, it would seem most wise to transfer to another university (one that has more renown than SWBTS). I'm taking a look at TCU and Baylor; my wife is a nurse in the area, so her 2-year contract keeps us around the DFW area until Spring 2020.

 

Dmueller, you have a good point with schools outside of the nation. I've always been firm in paying little to nothing for my degrees (if possible), and accumulating thousands in debt for a humanities degree would likely take a lifetime to pay off.

Turktheman, thank you for your suggestions. It looks like Vandy only gives around 30% funding, which would be tough to maintain. I haven't explored the NZ or South African schools, so I'll be sure to take a look there. Canada looks like U-Toronto or bust in terms of HB, so I'll be applying there either for ThM or PhD. 

At this point, it may be too late for me to transfer at semester, so I might have to wait the year out to gather recs and writing samples. Not what I would prefer, but I could say the same about this whole situation. Another quick question: any preference of Brite or Baylor in terms of HB/OT studies? I haven't had much time to research supervisors, but that will be a priority. Also, would you recommend any higher-tier ThM/MA programs that I could start online?

 

Again, your responses have been thoughtful and invaluable. This community is pretty incredible.

[Rabbit Run]

If you're in DFW then I imagine Perkins/SMU would be an option for you. I don't know what their HB/OT reputation is, but they're a strong divinity school.

I can think of two folks who went to SBC seminaries and ended up in good PhD programs (one in OT as a matter of fact), but they both did masters at other schools. 

I want to gauge people's takes on this, but my perception for some reason is that SEBTS is considered the most moderate of the SBC seminaries; not that that quells the worry raised in this thread, but might help. 

[NTAC321]

Okay, that info is helpful. Here’s a revised plan:

 

First, If you’re going to be in the DFW area for the next couple of years, you should apply to either MA or ThM programs at both Baylor and TCU this round (the deadlines are typically in late December/mid January, so there’s still plenty of time for a Master’s app). Rabbit Run mentioned Perkins at SMU, which might also be a good option (I don’t know anyone there, but I’m sure they have a couple HB folks). Especially if you’re applying to an MA program, you’ll likely get in, since divinity schools appreciate the money. I’d be in contact with current students and some prospective faculty to get their input on which degree you should be pursuing.

 

When it comes time for scheduling next semester, take the heaviest possible dose of language classes you can handle. Language skills are perfectly transferable, and that has to be the best use of your time while you’re still at Southwestern. Language skills are make or break in biblical studies, and you should be preparing now so that by the time you’re applying to PhD’s, your letter writers can proclaim your vast knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc.

 

Regarding recommendation letters, you should be able to use a mix of professors from prior institutions alongside maybe one professor at your current institution that can testify to your language ability, writing skills, or something basic like that before you submit your application file in December.

 

Regarding the evaluation of TCU vs Baylor, I think TCU has a stronger reputation. You can work closely with Ariel Feldman, Will Gafney, etc while also learning from good NT scholars like Shelly Matthews and Patricia Duncan who can round out your knowledge. Baylor, moreover, is seen as a pretty conservative institution, so in your particular case TCU might give you the opportunity to show some distance from your SBC past. But I think either one is going to be good enough for lots of schools. Baylor, Emory, Duke, and Princeton Seminary seem to have a good deal of mutual respect for one another, in particular.

 

I don’t think a reputable online Master’s program exists, to be honest. And I’ve never heard of anyone going from an online degree to a legitimate PhD program.

 

One last note: I don’t know whether this would work or not, but you might email admissions offices at Baylor and TCU to see about transferring and beginning in the spring. Masters admissions is honestly not all that rigorous, and I think, if you explained your situation and your desire to go somewhere that’s more in-line with your values, they might allow you to enter in the spring, perhaps as a provisional student, then admit you officially a couple of months later. The worst they can do is tell you that you’ll need to wait until fall 2019, which is what you’d have to do anyway.

 

Rabbit Run, Southwestern may very well be the most moderate SBC school (I have no idea), but I don’t think John Collins at Yale or Michael Fishbane at Chicago is going to appreciate that nuance. SBC seminaries are associated with inerrancy and misogyny, despite Russell Moore’s best efforts, and most PhD admissions committees are going to want to see that an applicant has moved on.

[turktheman]

So your follow up helps a lot. Do what NTAC recommends: take as many languages as you can in the Spring. Stokes, who did his PhD under John Collins, can do an independent study in Aramaic and Ge'ez if need be. He is well connected and his recommendation letter would probably carry the greatest weight. So would Steve Ortiz's recommendation. He's very well respected with Iron Age folks, including Deirdre Fulton at Baylor. Klein isn't nearly as well known as people tend to thing he is. 

 

Perkins School of Theology at SMU is certainly a great place. I'm not too sure who is there though in HB. Brite would probably be your best bet. Baylor *might* just add slightly to your dilemma since not everyone, even among seasoned academics, are aware that Truett Seminary is wholly other than Southern Baptist. There's no confusion about SMU and Brite though. (I say this as someone fully aware of the difference between Baylor and SBC seminaries). For me it would come down to funding.

[sacklunch]

Some good recommendations here. You likely already know this, but I should emphasize that while Brite et al. are far more respected among 'secular' academics/institutions than your current school, they too will almost certainly keep you out of the running for most secular schools/departments. Given the job market you will most certainly never leave the (conservative) Christian (academic) bubble and those outside of it will view what you publish with suspicion, if they read you at all. As others say above, anyone who reads your CV for doctoral admissions at an R1 is unlikely to see the nuance between SBC seminaries. To most outsiders, they are all the same--the risks are too great to invest in you years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

My recommendation, if you want to exit this bubble, is to leave your program immediately and complete a (secular) M* in religion/religious studies or a related field (e.g. a postbacc in classics). Yes, also apply to "theological" M* at R1's, which will signal that you're not super conservative (Yale et al.). But it sounds like your personal situation prevents you leaving the area. 

[rheya19]

If it hasn't been suggested yet, I would contact a couple of programs you might be interested in, and just explain your situation. Tell them the kind of research you want to do and see what they advice. I've been in two religious studies programs (my masters and PhD) who have religious folk or previously-very religious folk on their faculty. You don't get to be a religious studies professor without understanding the complexity of American religion, so I think you'll find them more understanding than you'd expect. Maybe seek out a professor or two who have both MDivs and MAs or PhDs

Good luck!

[Kuriakos]

On 9/27/2018 at 2:59 PM, NTAC321 said:

Okay, that info is helpful. Here’s a revised plan:

 

First, If you’re going to be in the DFW area for the next couple of years, you should apply to either MA or ThM programs at both Baylor and TCU this round (the deadlines are typically in late December/mid January, so there’s still plenty of time for a Master’s app). Rabbit Run mentioned Perkins at SMU, which might also be a good option (I don’t know anyone there, but I’m sure they have a couple HB folks). Especially if you’re applying to an MA program, you’ll likely get in, since divinity schools appreciate the money. I’d be in contact with current students and some prospective faculty to get their input on which degree you should be pursuing.

 

When it comes time for scheduling next semester, take the heaviest possible dose of language classes you can handle. Language skills are perfectly transferable, and that has to be the best use of your time while you’re still at Southwestern. Language skills are make or break in biblical studies, and you should be preparing now so that by the time you’re applying to PhD’s, your letter writers can proclaim your vast knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc.

 

Regarding recommendation letters, you should be able to use a mix of professors from prior institutions alongside maybe one professor at your current institution that can testify to your language ability, writing skills, or something basic like that before you submit your application file in December.

 

Regarding the evaluation of TCU vs Baylor, I think TCU has a stronger reputation. You can work closely with Ariel Feldman, Will Gafney, etc while also learning from good NT scholars like Shelly Matthews and Patricia Duncan who can round out your knowledge. Baylor, moreover, is seen as a pretty conservative institution, so in your particular case TCU might give you the opportunity to show some distance from your SBC past. But I think either one is going to be good enough for lots of schools. Baylor, Emory, Duke, and Princeton Seminary seem to have a good deal of mutual respect for one another, in particular.

 

I don’t think a reputable online Master’s program exists, to be honest. And I’ve never heard of anyone going from an online degree to a legitimate PhD program.

 

One last note: I don’t know whether this would work or not, but you might email admissions offices at Baylor and TCU to see about transferring and beginning in the spring. Masters admissions is honestly not all that rigorous, and I think, if you explained your situation and your desire to go somewhere that’s more in-line with your values, they might allow you to enter in the spring, perhaps as a provisional student, then admit you officially a couple of months later. The worst they can do is tell you that you’ll need to wait until fall 2019, which is what you’d have to do anyway.

 

Rabbit Run, Southwestern may very well be the most moderate SBC school (I have no idea), but I don’t think John Collins at Yale or Michael Fishbane at Chicago is going to appreciate that nuance. SBC seminaries are associated with inerrancy and misogyny, despite Russell Moore’s best efforts, and most PhD admissions committees are going to want to see that an applicant has moved on.

FWIW, Baylor is not conservative. Half the department faculty attend gay-affirming liberal churches. I'm about as liberal as it is possible to be and still retain the label Christian and I've had zero problems here. There's no inerrancy or heresy hunting or any of the bullshit you get in SBC schools.