Chances for PhD in Political Economy, Quantitative Pol Sci/Scoiology

[Mandy_244]

Hi, I'd like some advice regarding decisions regarding graduate study.

I will graduate in Physics from a university in India, and I wish to shift to social science, particularly econ/pol sci/quant sociology etc., where I can use quantitative methods but also have qualitative and philosophical arguments. I received admission to the Econometrics and Mathematical Economics MSc (10 months) at the London School of Economics, which is one of the best as far as I know if one intends to get into a top US PhD in Econ.

I would however, prefer to be at the intersection econ and pol sci, or maybe some sociology departments. Specifically I want to: how will political economy adcoms (like the ones at Princeton, Harris, Harvard PEG) or pol sci departments look upon the Econometrics MSc? Do I stand a chance at top sociology departments? Should I consider a different masters program?

PS: I am not considering 2-year masters due to funding constraints; 10-15 month programs are ideal. I am plan to get at least two years of research experience as RA before PhD, first during 2019-20  as I have deferred MSc by a year, and in the year after completing masters, so what kind of research would help my PhD application?

[sociopolitic]

You're absolutely competitive for these schools, in all three disciplines. Sociology adcomms are very open to applicants who come from other social sciences. I get the impression that this is generally true for political science as well. Political science has in the past few decades really made a move towards applying econometrics to political questions, so I'd imagine your economics credentials will serve you well. Economists might be less open to admitting applicants from other social sciences, but with your MSc that obviously isn't an issue. 

You'll really need to figure out where you fit, though. You sound like you'll make a strong applicant (especially if you have the GRE scores to match) but you should focus on figuring out where the best disciplinary home is for you. Luckily, you have time. Read articles that interest you from each of these fields and figure out what you find most convincing, most thought-provoking, etc. 

Best of luck!

[sandmoon]

What sort of topics are you interested in? Econ gives better outside options (industry jobs), so you should probably consider that as well.

Do you plan to RA for an economist? Then applying for Econ makes the most sense IMHO.

[staylite]

Are you more inclined to empirical or theoretical PE? Since you're considering the LSE EME, I assume it is the former. Here are some of my thoughts:

• LSE EME is the top Master's program in Econ for a reason. You will be grinding it out against other very bright people for ranks, and RA/Recommendations. If you're confident this might be the way to go, but I'd assume it is much better to be the star in a weaker program than it is to get a middling rank in EME.
• PE has a hard time placing in the Econ job market. Might be better to brand yourself (both in applications and in job market) as public or developmental econ.
• If you lean more towards the theoretical side, Northwestern Kellogg and Caltech are great choices. They also have a smattering of empiricists (Qian at MEDS, Caltech has experimental/neuroeconomics).
• Entrance difficulty for different PhD's (at least to my understanding) is Econ>= Top 5 Public Policy>Political Science>Sociology. Harris seems like a really good choice since they have both theorists and empiricists (they just got Scott Gehlbach!) and seem to be making big investments in PE. I've also heard they allocate one/two spots to the top performers in MAPSS. You might also want to consider other top 5 public policy, some applied econ programs.
• I know very little about Sociology programs but I assume that attending one will almost certainly block you out of Econ/PubPolicy/Polisci job markets. I'm also skeptical of the quantitative training and the attitudes faculty will have toward you.
• In Polisci, also consider Stanford GSB, Princeton, Columbia, NYU, Rochester, and WUSTL. Some have stronger/more PE faculty than others, but the training in each of these places should be solid. Be sure to look at placements though.

Take my advice with a grain of salt though, I'm also applying to PE programs this fall.

 

 

[sociopolitic]

While I doubt that staylite has ever spoken with a sociologist, let alone a quantitative sociologist, he's probably right that a soc PhD will likely prevent you from entering the econ job market. An econ PhD will also likely have trouble on the soc job market. An econ PhD is comparable to a degree in applied mathematics. Because of econ's emphasis on advanced mathematics, the field tends to see itself as more scientific than other social sciences. Qualitative methods have effectively been abandoned by the field. Something similar but less pervasive has happened/is happening in political science. Sociology is actually also becoming steadily more quantitative, but in general there's widespread respect for the ability of qualitative research to generate theory. I think that you'll likely have trouble on the econ market with anything other than an econ PhD, though, because economists tend to view their training as superior to that of other social scientists (see: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.29.1.89). You'll also probably have trouble on the soc market with training in economics, as it's less likely that you'll be able to frame your work in a way that interests both quantitative and qualitative scholars. That said, at the best sociology programs you're absolutely able to receive outstanding quantitative training, especially if you make it a priority.

As I said before, I think it's best that you read work produced by scholars in each field to see what grabs your attention: what theory interests you, what methods persuade you, whether empirical rigor is sufficient. There are slight "philosophical" differences, so to speak, across these disciplines, so you'll want to pursue training in whichever field produces the kind of research that you most wish to produce.  

Edited June 16, 2019 by sociopolitic

[staylite]

My point was not to be dismissive of Sociology (which I have much respect for) but rather to point out that for most people interested in Political Economy, training and socialization within Econ/Public Policy/Political Science would likely be better. For one, I honestly doubt that there is any Sociology program equipped to teach the theoretical (and mathematical) foundations of PE. Compare courses, faculty, and seminars at one particular school across these disciplines, and you'll find a nontrivial amount of variation.

Placement is also nontrivial. Econ graduates can and do place into Public Policy, Political Science, and Business Schools. Public Policy graduates can place in similar areas (and some, like David Autor placed in Econ). Recent Harris and Stanford GSB PE graduates have placed extremely well in Political Science. I'm unfamiliar as to whether it is common for Sociology grads to place into Econ/Public Policy/Political Science but I assume this is rare.

That is not to say that the original poster should not consider sociology grad schools if that is their interest, but in terms of training (and possible industry options if the job market doesn't work) I'd argue that there are better options.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by staylite

[sociopolitic]

Political economy is absolutely something you can pursue in any of these disciplines, OP. Find the field that does PE research that appeals to you.  

@staylite, it is rare for anyone in any discipline to land a TT job in a field outside their discipline. Occasionally IPE economists land political science jobs, occasionally political scientists land sociology jobs, and occasionally sociologists land communications and business school jobs, but for the most part any given field hires PhDs in that field. 

You clearly are not familiar with either political or economic sociology, but there is a great amount of work being done in each that could be of interest to the original poster. Especially given that he/she wants to advance "qualitative, philosophical arguments."

In any case, I've never argued for the supremacy of one PhD over another. Though you may be dismissive of sociologists' ability to analyze political economy, I merely suggest that the original poster take the time to read relevant work in each of these disciplines before deciding where to apply. My own research interests are similar to OP's, and I found that this was tremendously helpful in finding a disciplinary home.

[Mandy_244]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:35 PM, sociopolitic said:

You're absolutely competitive for these schools, in all three disciplines. Sociology adcomms are very open to applicants who come from other social sciences. I get the impression that this is generally true for political science as well. Political science has in the past few decades really made a move towards applying econometrics to political questions, so I'd imagine your economics credentials will serve you well. Economists might be less open to admitting applicants from other social sciences, but with your MSc that obviously isn't an issue. 

You'll really need to figure out where you fit, though. You sound like you'll make a strong applicant (especially if you have the GRE scores to match) but you should focus on figuring out where the best disciplinary home is for you. Luckily, you have time. Read articles that interest you from each of these fields and figure out what you find most convincing, most thought-provoking, etc. 

Best of luck!

Thanks @sociopolitic. Sorry for the late reply; I was away someplace with weak internet.

About the discipline where I will fit, I am definitely sure I do not want to be restricted by the extremely narrow and mathematical nature of economics. I would definitely want to have a strong qualitative component (if it says anything, I enjoy reading social anthropology a lot). The reason I am considering economics at the Masters level are:

1. My BSc-MSc in physics, so I stand a good chance of getting into Econ programs, probably not pol sci or soc.

2. I am not fully sure of the field, so I want to keep options open. Moreover, I hope to return to my home country someday, and here economics academia is by far the only developed and well-funded among social sciences. However, even in pol sci or sociology, if I do manage to get into a "top" US PhD, getting employment and funds should not be impossible, so I am still looking for other ways.

3. Most importantly, EME at LSE seems like one of the few one year Masters with a reliable track record of placing students in top PhDs.

So that's my situation at the moment. Would be great if you could help me out further!

[Mandy_244]

On 6/13/2019 at 4:12 AM, sandmoon said:

What sort of topics are you interested in? Econ gives better outside options (industry jobs), so you should probably consider that as well.

Do you plan to RA for an economist? Then applying for Econ makes the most sense IMHO.

Thanks @sandmoon, and sorry for the late reply.

First of all, I am 100% sure I do not want an industry job, at least a corporate job. I am very keen on research, preferable in academia. If that doesn't work out, I could settle with something like, say, a World Bank job (at the higher end) that involves research which is not too narrow.

I am actually interested in topics and problems that require some qualitative work.

I would like to decide where to RA based on what fields I want to pursue later. That's why I wish to know what fields are open to me with the EME MSc, and I shall factor that in to consider my RA options. If it seems too far from my interests, I may consider another masters.

Hope that answers your questions. Would be lovely if you could help me out a bit more!

 

[Mandy_244]

On 6/17/2019 at 2:54 AM, staylite said:

Are you more inclined to empirical or theoretical PE? Since you're considering the LSE EME, I assume it is the former. Here are some of my thoughts:

• LSE EME is the top Master's program in Econ for a reason. You will be grinding it out against other very bright people for ranks, and RA/Recommendations. If you're confident this might be the way to go, but I'd assume it is much better to be the star in a weaker program than it is to get a middling rank in EME.
• PE has a hard time placing in the Econ job market. Might be better to brand yourself (both in applications and in job market) as public or developmental econ.
• If you lean more towards the theoretical side, Northwestern Kellogg and Caltech are great choices. They also have a smattering of empiricists (Qian at MEDS, Caltech has experimental/neuroeconomics).
• Entrance difficulty for different PhD's (at least to my understanding) is Econ>= Top 5 Public Policy>Political Science>Sociology. Harris seems like a really good choice since they have both theorists and empiricists (they just got Scott Gehlbach!) and seem to be making big investments in PE. I've also heard they allocate one/two spots to the top performers in MAPSS. You might also want to consider other top 5 public policy, some applied econ programs.
• I know very little about Sociology programs but I assume that attending one will almost certainly block you out of Econ/PubPolicy/Polisci job markets. I'm also skeptical of the quantitative training and the attitudes faculty will have toward you.
• In Polisci, also consider Stanford GSB, Princeton, Columbia, NYU, Rochester, and WUSTL. Some have stronger/more PE faculty than others, but the training in each of these places should be solid. Be sure to look at placements though. 

Take my advice with a grain of salt though, I'm also applying to PE programs this fall.

 

 

@staylite, thanks for bringing Harris MAPSS to my notice! I'll check that out as well. Do you know about the funding scenario for MAPSS?

[Mandy_244]

On 6/17/2019 at 4:48 AM, sociopolitic said:

While I doubt that staylite has ever spoken with a sociologist, let alone a quantitative sociologist, he's probably right that a soc PhD will likely prevent you from entering the econ job market. An econ PhD will also likely have trouble on the soc job market. An econ PhD is comparable to a degree in applied mathematics. Because of econ's emphasis on advanced mathematics, the field tends to see itself as more scientific than other social sciences. Qualitative methods have effectively been abandoned by the field. Something similar but less pervasive has happened/is happening in political science. Sociology is actually also becoming steadily more quantitative, but in general there's widespread respect for the ability of qualitative research to generate theory. I think that you'll likely have trouble on the econ market with anything other than an econ PhD, though, because economists tend to view their training as superior to that of other social scientists (see: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.29.1.89). You'll also probably have trouble on the soc market with training in economics, as it's less likely that you'll be able to frame your work in a way that interests both quantitative and qualitative scholars. That said, at the best sociology programs you're absolutely able to receive outstanding quantitative training, especially if you make it a priority. 

As I said before, I think it's best that you read work produced by scholars in each field to see what grabs your attention: what theory interests you, what methods persuade you, whether empirical rigor is sufficient. There are slight "philosophical" differences, so to speak, across these disciplines, so you'll want to pursue training in whichever field produces the kind of research that you most wish to produce.   

Thanks a lot, @sociopolitic. I am actually not bothered much by whether I find a placement/job in an economics department or pol sci or sociology. What matters is that (a) I should have a job(!), and (b) I should be doing research I am interested in. Going by what you said, I realize economics may not be the best option if they have eliminated qualitative reasoning entirely.

"You'll also probably have trouble on the soc market with training in economics, as it's less likely that you'll be able to frame your work in a way that interests both quantitative and qualitative scholars." Do you mean that sociologists tend to be either fully quantitative or fully qualitative, and rarely do both? How about pol sci? And do you think it will count badly if I get an econ/econometrics degree and then express interest in qualitative research for my PhD?

 

[sociopolitic]

1 hour ago, Mandy_244 said:

"You'll also probably have trouble on the soc market with training in economics, as it's less likely that you'll be able to frame your work in a way that interests both quantitative and qualitative scholars." Do you mean that sociologists tend to be either fully quantitative or fully qualitative, and rarely do both? How about pol sci? And do you think it will count badly if I get an econ/econometrics degree and then express interest in qualitative research for my PhD?

 

Not at all! I simply meant that the way sociologists write papers and the way economists write papers is different. Mixed methods research is absolutely alive and well in sociology, though of course there are plenty of folks who specialize in either quantitative or qualitative methods. I'm not as familiar with qualitative research in political science (so take what I say next with a grain of salt) but it seems like political scientists who do qualitative work also tend to be pretty knowledgeable of quantitative methods. 

And getting a quantitative degree but expressing interest in qualitative methods is definitely not going to count against you, at least not in sociology. Remember, you're applying to train as a social scientist -- you aren't expected to be one already!

 

[sociopolitic]

7 hours ago, Mandy_244 said:

Thanks @sociopolitic. Sorry for the late reply; I was away someplace with weak internet.

About the discipline where I will fit, I am definitely sure I do not want to be restricted by the extremely narrow and mathematical nature of economics. I would definitely want to have a strong qualitative component (if it says anything, I enjoy reading social anthropology a lot). The reason I am considering economics at the Masters level are:

1. My BSc-MSc in physics, so I stand a good chance of getting into Econ programs, probably not pol sci or soc.

2. I am not fully sure of the field, so I want to keep options open. Moreover, I hope to return to my home country someday, and here economics academia is by far the only developed and well-funded among social sciences. However, even in pol sci or sociology, if I do manage to get into a "top" US PhD, getting employment and funds should not be impossible, so I am still looking for other ways.

3. Most importantly, EME at LSE seems like one of the few one year Masters with a reliable track record of placing students in top PhDs.

So that's my situation at the moment. Would be great if you could help me out further!

Fun fact: Harrison White (the sociologist who pioneered social network analysis, which has now been adopted across the social sciences) actually got his first PhD in physics. I know that sociology programs love being able to admit student with serious quantitative chops. I know more than a few sociology grad students with engineering degrees. I can't speak for political science, but you are extremely competitive at top 10 sociology programs with this background. If you provide a good writing sample, write a SOP in conversation with the contemporary academic literature of the field, and your GPA/GREs are good (and if you're at LSE for Econometrics, I expect they are), getting full funding at a top sociology PhD program will not be a problem. I imagine that this would be the same for political science programs, but I can't say for sure. 

If you're deciding between political science and sociology, I'd definitely concentrate on reading qualitative work that interests you in each field to see which you like more. There's a good bit of overlap between comparative political science and political sociology; a lot of quantitative work in each field can be found in the same journals, for instance. Message me if you'd like suggestions for where to start reading in sociology.

How qualitative is the research you envision doing, though? I could give better advice if I knew that, I think. I'm also taking a class with a qualitative political scientist this coming semester, so hopefully I'm in a better position for advice then.

Anyway, hope this helps! 

[PolPhil]

10 hours ago, Mandy_244 said:

@staylite, thanks for bringing Harris MAPSS to my notice! I'll check that out as well. Do you know about the funding scenario for MAPSS?

Current MAPSS student here. I done quite a bit of digging on the MAPSS website, the Grad Café and other forums. The first thing that you should know is that tuition costs roughly $52000, which adds up to closer to $60000 after fees and health insurance. The vast majority of MAPSS admits get some kind of funding. The largest proportion of admits get somewhere around 1/3 of the cost of tuition in scholarships. If you have a strong background (GPA above 3.7, good letters of recommendation and decent enough GRE scores), you can easily get 50-100% of tuition in scholarships. HOWEVER, it may be a bit different for you because you're switching disciplines. I switched disciplines going into MAPSS and received a $20000 scholarship. I suspect it would have been higher if I had applied within the same discipline, based on the amount that I've seen others with similar profiles receive. MAPSS sounds perfect for you though, because you are in a "general social science" program that would allow you to take classes and explore across the social sciences. You'd also have some of the top faculty in the world in all three disciplines (econ, soc and poli sci) with whom you could speak about your plans for grad school. MAPSS has a very good record of placing its students in decent-to-top PhD programs, but this tends to only apply to students who are highly self-motivated. From what I have gathered, a lot of people who go into MAPSS end up coasting by (they get in in the first place because admission standards aren't very high) and getting nowhere with a very expensive degree. If you have any other questions about MAPSS, I'd be happy to try to answer.

[staylite]

I was not referring to Chicago MAPSS (which I think is not in the Harris school) but rather to a Harris Public Policy PhD. Harris School does however have a number of other master's degrees, most notably the MACRM which Chris Blattman talks about here.

It seems like you have strong sociological interests which I did not pick up in your original post. In that case, while I think the LSE EME would be helpful in any discipline, I would personally not be willing to shell out London living costs + LSE tuition unless you are sure you want to pursue an Econ PhD. The amount of debt you're tacking on - even with fellowships/fee reductions - just seems too prohibitive. If anything - and I'm not sure of the timing of this - you might apply to PhD programs this year and see where you get in. If you're happy with your acceptances, you don't have to worry about accepting your deferred EME admission.

As to which field makes most sense to you, that will be up to you. I've tried to make the case for the programs I've mentioned, but I don't see any reason why not (besides application fees) to apply broadly and then figure out what happens after decisions come out. I also want to note that qualitative arguments are not absent from economics (or the other fields I've mentioned) - particularly in economic history and political economy. The best example of this would be Acemoglu and Robinson's work (see Economic Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy for example) which usually begins with case studies and then follows by developing a formal mathematical model. Are many economists disdainful of certain qualitative work? Sure, but at the end of the day, no matter how abstracted or mathematical a particular model is, it is always rooted in some qualitative or subjective observation of the world. What mathematics allows us to do is to precisely state which qualitative assumptions we make, and to show how that impacts our model.

Edited July 8, 2019 by staylite