Scotland postgraduate advice (theological history)

[Lawandtheology]

I have a few questions and appreciate in advance any advice regarding any or all of these questions.   

(apologies for the length of the intro - but I've seen a lot of responses to others that say more information helps with the advice)

A little background first. I am approaching 50 and I've seen a few posts about it being difficult to enter academia at this age (as if it wasn't hard enough already)...so I am not primarily concerned with getting into the absolute best phd programs in the future (which I might also be precluded from by my age).  Also, I am an attorney who does contract work (by the hour) so working part time on a european phd is convenient for me (though I may take a year off from my studies to reevaluate and apply to funded phd programs).  I have a background in theology, but it would not be considered "academic" (a year at a SB seminary and later a thesis-only MTH in practical theology - 45,000 words and published the 5,000 word version in a non-prestigious peer-reviewed journal).  Then went to law school (University of Texas), graduated in the top 10% and while there published 1) in another non-prestigious peer reviewed theology journal, 2) published a peer-reviewed tax law article, and 3) published 2 more law review articles (not peer-reviewed). Since then I've published another law review article.  None of the articles are in top tier law reviews, and my best law review articles have an overlap of law and theology or history.

My long-term goal - despite the limitations based on my age, I would like to see if teaching is an option. At this point I realize that teaching law would be my best bet, but even with my grades and publishing I would need a PhD in addition to my JD since most of the competition went to higher ranked schools (and probably have phds as well).  Additionally, I understand that if I wanted to teach at  undergrad (pre-law, theology or history) I would likely be limited to adjunct positions unless I published something substantial.

Intermediate goal - get into a Phd program (in theology) and write on a law and theology topic.  I have a solid topic in mind already, and have been working through the application process with some great gentlemen over at VU Amsterdam. It is more properly a historical theology topic as it deals with the Reformation era.

Short term goal - choosing the right Masters program (that is still available).  I work at a small law firm and we have peaks and valleys (which is conducive to part-time phd work). But, currently we are in a valley with nothing in the pipeline. So, last month, I was given permission to work remotely for a year so that I can enter a taught masters program (which I think I need given I have not completed a taught postgraduate course (other than the JD).  By that point, however, most application deadlines had passed...and, having not foreseen this option, I have not yet taken the GRE. So, I looked at overseas and applied to the following programs:  Aberdeen (MLitt in Medieval and Early Modern Studies); St. Andrews (MLitt in Reformation Studies) and Edinburgh (Mth in Theology in History).  All 3 programs have advantages and disadvantages. Edinburgh will have the best courses on reformation theology but no courses on early modern law (I have not asked if they would allow me to take a directed reading course with someone from the law faculty yet); Aberdeen will have the best faculty for early modern law but no theology experts (I have not asked  if they would allow me to take a directed reading course with someone from the divinity faculty yet); and St. Andrews probably has the best balanced program (but have already stated they do not have someone to supervise the legal aspect if I wanted to proceed to a Phd there). Finally, to be clear, the St. Andrews and Aberdeen degrees are more accurately history degrees (or interdisciplinary at best), not theology.

So finally my questions (or my thoughts that should be corrected):

1) I assume that the prestige of these schools in general would likely be ranked 1) Edinburgh, 2) St. Andrews and 3) Aberdeen.  Does that perception change for the specific programs given that Edinburgh is a theology course (albeit theology in history) and the other two are history courses?

 

2) If I pursue a phd in UK/Europe, I'm not too worried about the history vs theology nature of these three masters degrees, given that the interdisciplinary nature of the history degrees would still be useful in a historical theology dissertation.  I would probably prefer the Mth from Edinburgh (the gaps in my theological education are probably more critical to what I want to right about than my understanding of early modern law (civil or common)) and it may be a little better if I wanted to pursue a Phd in historical theology at Oxbridge or at Edinburgh.  If any of this is off base, please let me know.

 

3)  However, if I did want to apply in a couple of years to a US historical theology program, I assume it might make a bigger difference, but I am unsure. Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence of how an interdisciplinary degree from the early modern period would be viewed by a serious historical theology program? 

 

4) Also, if you think there are programs I should consider (whether Masters programs that are still accepting applications or PhD programs that would be a good fit for a law and reformation theology dissertation), please let me know.

 

5) I am currently planning on doing my Phd through VU Amsterdam (I say currently as we have still not nailed down the proposal and I am not sure how my application will be received by the reviewing panel/board...but I'm hoping that with 2 supervisors already on board I will be admitted).  One of the benefits of VU is that I can register as a part-time external candidate and will not be charged  tuition. Since then I've discovered that their theology dept is ranked very highly per the QS World Rankings (7th in 2017, 5th in 2018 and 15th in 2019).  I've seen a lot of threads regarding UK or European PHD vs US, and I understand the weaknesses of the dissertation only Phd, and that faculty members on a hiring committee may have to google Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam ... but once they do look it up (if they do) will it be taken seriously?  In law firm hiring, the US News rankings of your school made a huge difference...but I have no idea how VU's ranking will be viewed. Or to put it another way, given how limited my future in academia may already be (based on my age) is VU a wise decision because I will take on no debt, or is it the final nail in the coffin for teaching theology?   

 

6) Finally, and I may need to ask this in a different forum,  I think that the limitations of a european phd are less important to teaching at a law school and that, with a law and theology topic, a phd from VU Amsterdam might be just what I need. 

 

Any corrective thoughts, advice or alternative suggests are much appreciated. Also apologies for typos and grammar errors.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Lawandtheology
re-ordering of questions

[ChristoWitch87]

First off, let me say I am pulling for you. In the big picture, and law is better balanced in this regard, I think the academy and divinity especially would do well to have more practitioner-scholars in tenure track positions. In the small picture, its like reading into my own future, as it appears I will be finishing a military career then applying for doctoral studies around the time I am your age.

Anyways, right to it. I think your perfect end state would be teaching at a law school in a university that also has a divinity or RS faculty to fully maximize the mutual benefits of your "law and theology" focus for both yourself and potential students. You have correctly surmised that your best bet for entry in this regard is through the law faculty. That is where your primary experience and training is, and frankly divinity schools tend to limit their practitioner faculty to pastoral care types with tons of ministry experience. So, assuming a goal of becoming a law professor I offer you the following.

- I would think long and hard to make sure the Ph.D is necessary for your intended goal. While the trend for law professors seems to be moving towards the Ph.D, it certainly is not a requirement. From what I've gathered, additional advanced degrees pay bigger dividends for those with JDs from non-elite institutions, University of Texas is one of those respectable, upper-tier but not quite SCOTUS producing sort of places so you are middle to above-average in this regard. I think you should post a copy of your original message on law forums for their take as well.  https://www.thefacultylounge.org/2010/09/aspiring-law-professors-the-phd.html http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/should_aspiring_law_profs_go_for_a_jsd_degree/

- If you do decide your teaching prospects are enhanced enough by doctoral studies to be worth the commitment, go to the most prestigious place you can that lines up with your interests since brand is an element in law hires. Oxford offers D.Phil degrees in both law and theology on a part-time basis that may be of interest to you. https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/dphil-theology-and-religion?wssl=1 https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/dphil-law?wssl=1

RE 1. My vote is for Edinburgh, both in terms of prestige and in terms of formal theological training being what could benefit you the most. Also see if Oxford has a relevant part time M.Phil.

RE 2. The big thing about UK Ph.Ds is that there are no accompanying classes or exams. It is just research, so simply put I would go to whatever place is the best combination of preparing you for your Ph.D research and prestige. Again this will likely be Edinburgh of the schools you've listed.

RE 3. Others are better suited to comment on this. The answer will be influenced by the precise nature of your research interests, requisite languages, sorts of American schools you aim to apply for etc. my personal recommendation though is if you start overseas, finish overseas as it saves you time. It would be a different story if you were trying to enter academia through a Divinity/RS faculty, but any Ph.D is technically above and beyond for law positions and I doubt they will know the finer points of distinction between American and UK theology Ph.Ds.

RE 4. Oxbridge, Oxbridge, Oxbridge. They have part time programs in law and theology and it would be worth digging.

RE 5. If you really like VU Amsterdam, I don't see it as a negative. Having a Ph.D is extra in law faculty hires. That said, Oxbridge and the Scottish Ancient Unis will have the most name recognition and will be most highly regarded by American faculties.

Best of luck, hope this helps!

 

 

[Lawandtheology]

Thanks for the detailed feedback and the advice (I will be posting an abridged version in the law forum).  It is very much appreciated.

Also, congrats on making the military a career. I started off as a 19D (when Reagan was still in office) and went back in briefly as a Russian linguist. Studying at DLI in Monterey must be one of the best assignments in the military (much better than the desert warfare I practiced at Fort Bliss). 

[ChristoWitch87]

22 hours ago, Lawandtheology said:

Thanks for the detailed feedback and the advice (I will be posting an abridged version in the law forum).  It is very much appreciated.

Also, congrats on making the military a career. I started off as a 19D (when Reagan was still in office) and went back in briefly as a Russian linguist. Studying at DLI in Monterey must be one of the best assignments in the military (much better than the desert warfare I practiced at Fort Bliss). 

56M (Chaplain Assistant) to 37F (PSYOP). Flunked right out of DLI Korean but did just fine in another language taken elsewhere.  Trying to see if they'll take me as a Chaplain and that will be the deciding factor.

[Boolakanaka]

Although not on your list, have you given thought to a PhD at Yale Law—where you could also apply at Yale Divinity. The upside, is that it’s fully funded (last I looked, it a full tuition waiver and a stipend at around 50k a year) and you can basically chart your own course for much of the program, taking additional courses within much of Yale’s graduate programs. Further, it has a seamless integration at T14 law schools for a legal teaching fellowship and finally, it will take you a much shorter time to complete the PhD this route.

On the flip side, it’s very competitive to gain admission as they take less than a dozen students a year.

[11Q13]

Harvard and probably other schools have joint programs in law and Theology. I think you'd be a very attractive non-traditional applicant to many PhD programs in the US.