SAIC, NYU or Columbia?

[vnswang]

Hi!

I am applying for MA in art history  (Fall 2020) and now got 2 offers: MA in Modern and Contemporary art history at SAIC, MA in art history at NYU's Institute of Fine Arts. Additionally, I am currently in the waitlist of MODA at Columbia.

I have professors who have same areas of interest (Contemporary art, monuments, sculpture, installations, Bruce Nauman, ...) in all of them. But some information makes me anxious about making a choice:

First, I heard that MODA and the IFA program both have a "reputation" of cash cow and focus more on their PhD. Do not know how about SAIC but I wanted to have more chance and attention. 

Second, I have considered about being a PhD in the future and have seen the career path of SAIC alumni. Many of them went to universities like UIUC, UCB, UNC. All of these are excellent, but I have the ambition of pursuing higher goals. Maybe a university, not an art institution, has advantages in applying for PhD?

Third, SAIC has courses like sonic art, design history, fashion. But courses in the IFA program may focus less on contemporary art.

Does anyone here have some advice about their courses (intensive or not?), professors, career path, safety or else? Any information would help. Thanks a lot!

[Zephyr9]

Also want to know! btw: I am wondering is NYU’s IFA program really has a reputation of cash cow??

[renforall]

I’d first address the glaring issue with these programs, as the poster above mentions. I’ll give my two cents bluntly: please do not attend the Columbia/NYU programs unless you can seriously offset or justify the cost in a meaningful way. These programs are the notorious cash cows in the field (I would put Chicago’s MAPH in the same bracket, too) and rarely give any advantage in applying to the same departments’ PhD programs. Other users might be able to attest to this better than I, but it’s known that these academic environments are grossly unkind to their MA students and access to faculty remains a particularly troubling subject. This isn’t to say that there is any wrongdoing at the hands of faculty directly, but advising for MA students is generally a low priority and competition with other students—especially from what I hear about Columbia—is not worth the intellectual, financial, or personal investment whatsoever.

If your ultimate goal is a PhD, it’s imperative that you enter and exit this long process with as few financial setbacks as possible. You’ve likely heard this before, but you must realize that self-funding an MA is a misguided step that many unfortunately take and should be avoided at all costs. If money isn’t an issue for you, then do some serious research about your potential advisor(s) commitment to their relationships with MA students and the departmental culture around advising at each institution. Talk to current students, if possible—they will likely be frank about their situations and offer more insight than anyone here can. It may prove more beneficial to investigate other programs for the subsequent application cycle that offer more funding opportunities and maintain a serious dedication to training MA students.

Sure, you’d leave with a nice degree in-hand from a reputable program, but it’s questionable if these programs provide the individualized training necessary in order to secure a proper footing in this field. Only you can make the decision re: preparedness for the PhD, but ensure your reasons for pursuing are true to heart if you go that route eventually. If it turns out to be a yes, I’d say your time is better spent reading literature in your sub-field, building language skills, and refining your SOP/writing sample for a program that will make a deeper, genuine commitment to you as an emerging scholar. Consider your personal circumstances—whether you’re coming straight out of a BA or if you’ve already been living the post-grad life for a few years. If it’s the former, do not rush into this decision given these options.

I wouldn’t say to take this as a hard and fast rule, but I will reiterate this as the most sound advice I’ve received: do not attend a program that doesn’t value you enough to fund you fully. Deciding to take the MA route comes down to a number of factors, but only do it if you believe that the experience is a necessary step and if your finances permit. Do not go into debt for an MA program. At this stage, concern yourself less with reputation and focus more on what will make for a meaningful academic training. I know plenty of students with mid-tier MAs who have gone on to fantastic PhD programs. Because you’re considering the PhD, think very carefully about this next step and do not make compromises when it comes to your wellbeing, intellectual or otherwise.

As far as SAIC reputation goes, I know little about the program. But your post suggests that you’ve already recognized what the obvious limitations might be. Approach this with open eyes. Congratulations on your achievements and always keep in mind what will be best for you moving forward—it’s not always clear at first! ?

Edited March 6, 2020 by renforall

[vnswang]

4 hours ago, Zephyr9 said:

Also want to know! btw: I am wondering is NYU’s IFA program really has a reputation of cash cow??

yeah, although I do not want to believe it, I see this in thegradcafe! About 2-3 people said this about NYU's IFA when comparing it to MA in art history in CUNY!

[vnswang]

1 hour ago, renforall said:

I’d first address the glaring issue with these programs, as the poster above mentions. I’ll give my two cents bluntly: please do not attend the Columbia/NYU programs unless you can seriously offset or justify the cost in a meaningful way. These programs are the notorious cash cows in the field (I would put Chicago’s MAPH in the same bracket, too) and rarely give any advantage in applying to the same departments’ PhD programs. Other users might be able to attest to this better than I, but it’s known that these academic environments are grossly unkind to their MA students and access to faculty remains a particularly troubling subject. This isn’t to say that there is any wrongdoing at the hands of faculty directly, but advising for MA students is generally a low priority and competition with other students—especially from what I hear about Columbia—is not worth the intellectual, financial, or personal investment whatsoever.

If your ultimate goal is a PhD, it’s imperative that you enter and exit this long process with as few financial setbacks as possible. You’ve likely heard this before, but you must realize that self-funding an MA is a misguided step that many unfortunately take and should be avoided at all costs. If money isn’t an issue for you, then do some serious research about your potential advisor(s) commitment to their relationships with MA students and the departmental culture around advising at each institution. Talk to current students, if possible—they will likely be frank about their situations and offer more insight than anyone here can. It may prove more beneficial to investigate other programs for the subsequent application cycle that offer more funding opportunities and maintain a serious dedication to training MA students.

Sure, you’d leave with a nice degree in-hand from a reputable program, but it’s questionable if these programs provide the individualized training necessary in order to secure a proper footing in this field. Only you can make the decision re: preparedness for the PhD, but ensure your reasons for pursuing are true to heart if you go that route eventually. If it turns out to be a yes, I’d say your time is better spent reading literature in your sub-field, building language skills, and refining your SOP/writing sample for a program that will make a deeper, genuine commitment to you as an emerging scholar. Consider your personal circumstances—whether you’re coming straight out of a BA or if you’ve already been living the post-grad life for a few years. If it’s the former, do not rush into this decision given these options.

I wouldn’t say to take this as a hard and fast rule, but I will reiterate this as the most sound advice I’ve received: do not attend a program that doesn’t value you enough to fund you fully. Deciding to take the MA route comes down to a number of factors, but only do it if you believe that the experience is a necessary step and if your finances permit. Do not go into debt for an MA program. At this stage, concern yourself less with reputation and focus more on what will make for a meaningful academic training. I know plenty of students with mid-tier MAs who have gone on to fantastic PhD programs. Because you’re considering the PhD, think very carefully about this next step and do not make compromises when it comes to your wellbeing, intellectual or otherwise.

As far as SAIC reputation goes, I know little about the program. But your post suggests that you’ve already recognized what the obvious limitations might be. Approach this with open eyes. Congratulations on your achievements and always keep in mind what will be best for you moving forward—it’s not always clear at first! ?

Thank you very much for these detailed advice. Indeed, I am not 100% sure about my ultimate goal, thought I enjoy academic activities and do not want to be a staff in galleries or museums in my country simply because the environment is not good (low payment, co-workers with not very nice degree and accumulation of knowledge). I just want to go somewhere can really foster my understanding in contemporary art.

Do you think it is okay to be unsure about the exact area I want to pursue in the future? Now I just could not choose one. I am afraid the wrong program would make me regret, like, I discover that I want to study A but there is no professor in this area!

Again, thank you. Your advice is truly helpful. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by vnswang
edit.

[roving99]

I agree with many of the above posters. If you are interested in pursuing the PhD or anything above these masters programs, DO NOT attend a program which requires countless loans and monetary input unless you are independently wealthy. 
 

IFA and Columbia ARE cash cows. It is not only talked about on gradcafe but also in the academic world. I am in my second year of a university PhD and people mention it all the time. They don’t have a stellar reputation, regardless of their university name. 

[vnswang]

Besides, I also got an offer from UIUC and am still waiting for answers from Boston University, UPenn and UMD. If anyone would recommend programs in these universities, please tell me.

ps: I am not sure about the importance of location. UIUC is not in a big city with many contemporary art galleries. Boston University has a good location (MIT, Harvard), but there is only one professor in contemporary art and two in contemporary architecture, which might not be my interested fields.

Thank you all!

[vnswang]

47 minutes ago, roving99 said:

I agree with many of the above posters. If you are interested in pursuing the PhD or anything above these masters programs, DO NOT attend a program which requires countless loans and monetary input unless you are independently wealthy. 
 

IFA and Columbia ARE cash cows. It is not only talked about on gradcafe but also in the academic world. I am in my second year of a university PhD and people mention it all the time. They don’t have a stellar reputation, regardless of their university name. 

Thank you so much! Such a pity that I discover this too late.

[renforall]

6 hours ago, vnswang said:

Thank you very much for these detailed advice. Indeed, I am not 100% sure about my ultimate goal, thought I enjoy academic activities and do not want to be a staff in galleries or museums in my country simply because the environment is not good (low payment, co-workers with not very nice degree and accumulation of knowledge). I just want to go somewhere can really foster my understanding in contemporary art.

Do you think it is okay to be unsure about the exact area I want to pursue in the future? Now I just could not choose one. I am afraid the wrong program would make me regret, like, I discover that I want to study A but there is no professor in this area!

Again, thank you. Your advice is truly helpful. 

I think uncertainty is perfectly common and expected. With PhDs, it’s usually the case that you don’t even know the topic of your dissertation until you’ve been in the program for a few years. This is the time to be strategic and figure out what’s best for you in the coming years. Especially with an MA, you want to attend a program where there’s several people with whom you can see yourself working. It’s wise not to tie yourself to one person in case things change during coursework. Many treat the MA as a kind of exploratory degree in order to get a sense of their commitment to the field, but this is a huge miscalculation. The MA is proper it you’re thinking about more advanced graduate study—which you are—but not yet ready for the sacrifices that the PhD demands. Or if you plan for a career where only the MA is necessary. Your investment in art history should already be firm and not a matter of question.

Look, these programs do produce really wonderful students, too. I have an NYU graduate in my department right now. As you are well aware, you face an extra set of hurdles as an international student that others of us do not. The point is that there is a potential for these programs to be more of an impediment to your growth than anything else. It all comes down to what you’d make of your time in an MA and, more importantly, how the environment treats you—for better or worse.

[mcoa1996]

I agree with everyone here. If you do get an offer from the IFA, I strongly advice you to not take it. I applied last year for PhD despite the massive red flags and warnings that one of my mentors told me. I did get admission to the MA without funding at all. I didn't want to get into massive debt for a masters degree, so I rejected the offer. At the same time, I got a MAPH offer from UChicago. My mentor told me to also reject it because she said I didn't need that kind of debt, despite the fact that she is, a UChicago PhD alumn and I was awarded with the highest scholarship that year for MAPH (30 000 USD). I also rejected that one after one of my closest friends got into a pretty good MA art history program in France that would cost a fraction of what I would have needed to pay tuition at UChicago. So I decided to look at how my options were looking at in Europe and this year I solely applied to European universities. If you have good skills in Italian, I strongly advice you to check the MA in Art History at Universita di Bologna. Applications are open from March up to June and if you did take the GRE, there's a solid scholarship where you have to submit your GRE scores and your transcripts and that's it. If you do choose to wait it out for another year (Admission for fall 2021) I would also strongly encourage you to look at the History of Art MA at Stockholm University. It's taught in English, so no need to learn Swedish just yet. For the price of what it would cost to do the MA at NYU IFA or UChicago, you can study for two years in Stockholm, and that includes housing, transportation and food. Scholarships are good too and all the faculty members I talked to were really kind and guided me through the process. With my research topic, it's a bit of a hassle to find academics willing to guide me through the research process and they were all very welcoming and receptive of my MA proposal. 

You're not late to apply for most European universities, with exceptions such as the entire grad school system in the Sweden, so I advice you to give it a look. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by mcoa1996

[Bluemonochrome]

On 3/6/2020 at 6:31 PM, renforall said:

I’d first address the glaring issue with these programs, as the poster above mentions. I’ll give my two cents bluntly: please do not attend the Columbia/NYU programs unless you can seriously offset or justify the cost in a meaningful way. These programs are the notorious cash cows in the field (I would put Chicago’s MAPH in the same bracket, too) and rarely give any advantage in applying to the same departments’ PhD programs. Other users might be able to attest to this better than I, but it’s known that these academic environments are grossly unkind to their MA students and access to faculty remains a particularly troubling subject. This isn’t to say that there is any wrongdoing at the hands of faculty directly, but advising for MA students is generally a low priority and competition with other students—especially from what I hear about Columbia—is not worth the intellectual, financial, or personal investment whatsoever.

If your ultimate goal is a PhD, it’s imperative that you enter and exit this long process with as few financial setbacks as possible. You’ve likely heard this before, but you must realize that self-funding an MA is a misguided step that many unfortunately take and should be avoided at all costs. If money isn’t an issue for you, then do some serious research about your potential advisor(s) commitment to their relationships with MA students and the departmental culture around advising at each institution. Talk to current students, if possible—they will likely be frank about their situations and offer more insight than anyone here can. It may prove more beneficial to investigate other programs for the subsequent application cycle that offer more funding opportunities and maintain a serious dedication to training MA students.

Sure, you’d leave with a nice degree in-hand from a reputable program, but it’s questionable if these programs provide the individualized training necessary in order to secure a proper footing in this field. Only you can make the decision re: preparedness for the PhD, but ensure your reasons for pursuing are true to heart if you go that route eventually. If it turns out to be a yes, I’d say your time is better spent reading literature in your sub-field, building language skills, and refining your SOP/writing sample for a program that will make a deeper, genuine commitment to you as an emerging scholar. Consider your personal circumstances—whether you’re coming straight out of a BA or if you’ve already been living the post-grad life for a few years. If it’s the former, do not rush into this decision given these options.

I wouldn’t say to take this as a hard and fast rule, but I will reiterate this as the most sound advice I’ve received: do not attend a program that doesn’t value you enough to fund you fully. Deciding to take the MA route comes down to a number of factors, but only do it if you believe that the experience is a necessary step and if your finances permit. Do not go into debt for an MA program. At this stage, concern yourself less with reputation and focus more on what will make for a meaningful academic training. I know plenty of students with mid-tier MAs who have gone on to fantastic PhD programs. Because you’re considering the PhD, think very carefully about this next step and do not make compromises when it comes to your wellbeing, intellectual or otherwise.

As far as SAIC reputation goes, I know little about the program. But your post suggests that you’ve already recognized what the obvious limitations might be. Approach this with open eyes. Congratulations on your achievements and always keep in mind what will be best for you moving forward—it’s not always clear at first! ?

Thanks for the great advice! I am now in the same spot as @vnswang and considering the IFA MA offer since it's my only option at the moment. 

Many people also commented on the lack of advising for MA students at IFA. I am now asking for some current student contact and hoping to ask them about this.

To judge their comments fairly, I am curious about what a great MA program would do for its students in terms of advising. What is a good advising? Like answering emails promptly and enthusiastically, easy to arrange for meetings, actively organizing workshops and lectures about career and research? Anyone has any thoughts or experience?

[vnswang]

On 3/13/2020 at 10:50 PM, Bluemonochrome said:

Thanks for the great advice! I am now in the same spot as @vnswang and considering the IFA MA offer since it's my only option at the moment. 

Many people also commented on the lack of advising for MA students at IFA. I am now asking for some current student contact and hoping to ask them about this.

To judge their comments fairly, I am curious about what a great MA program would do for its students in terms of advising. What is a good advising? Like answering emails promptly and enthusiastically, easy to arrange for meetings, actively organizing workshops and lectures about career and research? Anyone has any thoughts or experience?

That's a really good question, I am also curious about terms of advising. Would you please share with me any information you got from current MA students in IFA? It seems that their website does not provide any records for where every cohort of students go, to PhD programs or jobs. But when I ask one of current students, she thinks this program is nice. So difficult to find information!

[Bluemonochrome]

I’d love to share with you what I know. But I just got back from one current PhD student only.

Please me DM you!

[scottstots]

Hello! 
Current MA student of the IFA. While I can’t speak to other people’s experiences with mentorship, I’ve certainly enjoyed my time there  and found faculty to be supportive, responsive, and easily accessible. I think it’s important to note that at any institution you attend your ability to build relationships and rapport with faculty is up to you. It’s easier for PhD students to have closer relationships with faculty, in my opinion, because they are working almost exclusively with that faculty member or members in the pursuit of a topic in which they are both actively engaged in and researching, and have been chosen by that faculty member to do so. As someone who has a broad range of interests in the field, I’ve still found it easy to talk to various faculty even those outside of my fields of interest. All have been incredibly helpful and supportive. Again, I have to reiterate, that it is up to you as the student to pursue these relationships though! I am someone who works to actively participate in class and to regularly meet with faculty during office hours to follow up regarding questions I had about that class or upcoming projects. Because of this, I’ve become close to several faculty members and they have consistently referred me for Internship and job opportunities that they know fit my interests and skill set. I’m not someone who plans to continue on in academia, so I’ve greatly benefitted from the contacts I’ve made at various museum institutions throughout the city, many of whom I have been introduced to by faculty and the administration. As an add-on the IFA PhD and MA programs are much larger than most, so that may be part of the reason some may feel less able to develop close relationships with faculty or find it difficult to do so, there are simply way more students than faculty. However, this has not personally impeded my ability to interact with faculty. 
 

In terms of it being a cash cow, I found the costs comparable to the other school I applied to, which was Tufts. In weighing the pros and cons of attending each, I ultimately settled on the IFA because it was going to be cheaper for me to attend (I live with family members in the city and don’t pay for rent) and allowed me greater access to museums and arts institutions (in-line with my future career goals). Both schools, it’s important to note, were incredibly kind and helpful in answering my questions as I prepared! I  think pretty much any MA program in Art History is going to be expensive and leave you in a lot of debt, unfortunately. It’s a matter of deciding which schools are going to provide you the greatest opportunities for reaching your professional goals whether that be faculty that are doing research in a topic you are interested or other resources. 

As an end note, someone implied that Columbia and the IFA don’t have stellar reputations in academic circles, I would disagree with that. Especially considering that many, if not most of, the MA students I know who have applied to PhD programs have gotten into top programs and/or their preferred program of study. 

Anyway! Hope this helps! Feel free to reach out if you have any additional questions!

[Arthistoryiscool]

SAIC is super conceptual and the students/profs can be extremely pretentious since it is an art school. BUT great facilities and city and nice to be tied to the museum, good film center. I would seriously consider if your goals/interests align with the profs there before saying yes. Congrats on all your acceptances!