Berkeley vs Columbia Chemistry Ph.D.

[isk20]

We're getting down to the wire, so it seems as good a time as any to make a last-minute panic post about decisions.

I was very lucky to be accepted to these two amazing programs, but even after talking to a lot of people, I'm struggling to actually hit the "accept" button on either.

Pros of Berkeley:

- Insanely powerful (probably unmatched) in synthetic organic chemistry and chemical biology, which are the two fields I want to explore in grad school.

- As a whole, the research being conducted here appeals to me more.

- Great placement for students post-Ph.D. I want to work in the pharmaceutical industry and they have amazing success there.

- I got along amazingly with the students - they were down-to-earth, open, and honest about their experiences.

Cons of Berkeley:

- I did not like the surrounding area for some reason, and even the campus felt off to me. It actually made me feel pretty miserable. But I was also really tired/jet-lagged during my visit, which definitely influenced me.

- Stipend seems really low for the Bay Area ($36k) and the housing honestly seems like a nightmare.

- I heard some concerning things about POIs and work hours/expectations. Even first-years seemed trapped in the lab for ~60 hours/week. I worry about the effect this would have on my mental and physical health (I have a condition that can become debilitating if I don't get enough rest.)

Pros of Columbia:

- I love NYC and the vibe of being "one in a crowd." I feel like if the atmosphere of grad school becomes too overwhelming, I'll have an escape in the location. Also, I felt happier on the Columbia campus and have a strong support network in the city/on the east coast.

- The program is traditionally much smaller (~25 people), which also appeals to me.

- I got along with my POIs and got to talk extensively with them, which was nice. The students all said that they have pretty normal working hours and can chill out most weekends.

- $42k stipend + guaranteed subsidized housing for 5 years. Hard to beat.

Cons of Columbia:

- In general, less cutting-edge research in synthetic organic/chem bio (not the slam the program at all; one of my top picks does research I'm really interested in exploring further). 

- The program is so small that if I don't fit in with my cohort, I'll feel pretty isolated.

- It feels like the "safe" choice to me? I've spent ~6 years on the east coast already and I'm wondering if it's time to branch out and move across the country, even if that means going to a place where I have less immediate support and don't feel as comfortable.

Am I being stupid for turning down a #1-2 school because I didn't like the location? Any last-minute advice is very welcome. Thank you for reading this far.

Edit: Oh, and it looks like the UCs/public institutions are getting slammed by the financial consequences of COVID-19, so there's that. This seems like it would be less of an issue at a private institution.

Edited April 13, 2020 by isk20

[joysii]

Whatever negative vibes you got from the Berkeley neighborhood were somewhat accurate. It does tend to be a bit "grungy" in atmosphere. Based on friends I know who worked in the chem labs at Berkeley, (and the bio ones too for that matter) the work hours are also pretty brutal. Considering Columbia is a smaller program, Columbia probably will feel more chill on the weekends like you said. However, Berkeley's prestige is very real and I wouldn't worry about the world economic situation for Berkeley. Even though Berkeley is public and the rest of its departments are going to be hit HARD, chemistry has always been affected less because they get so much funding and donations from outside sources compared to the rest of the school. Another thing to consider is perhaps Columbia, by being less intense and having less people, will make it easier for you to get lax? This is speculation and something you should determine for yourself.

Edited April 14, 2020 by joysii
adding content

[isk20]

7 minutes ago, joysii said:

Whatever negative vibes you got from the Berkeley neighborhood were somewhat accurate. It does tend to be a bit "grungy" in atmosphere. Based on friends I know who worked in the chem labs at Berkeley, (and the bio ones too for that matter) the work hours are also pretty brutal. Considering Columbia is a smaller program, Columbia probably will feel more chill on the weekends like you said. However, Berkeley's prestige is very real and I wouldn't worry about the world economic situation for Berkeley. Even though Berkeley is public and the rest of its departments are going to be hit HARD, chemistry has always been affected less because they get so much funding and donations from outside sources compared to the rest of the school. Another thing to consider is perhaps Columbia, by being less intense and having less people, will make it easier for you to get lax? This is speculation and something you should determine for yourself.

Thanks for the input. My question is, how do you know about the funding situation in the College of Chemistry specifically? I work at an obscenely wealthy private R1 and our departments/labs are getting unilaterally slammed because so much funding comes from industry, which I assumed was also the case in the Bay due to the proximity to biotech and startups. 

Edit: redundancy

Edited April 14, 2020 by isk20

[joysii]

3 minutes ago, isk20 said:

Thanks for the input. My question is, how do you know about the funding situation in the College of Chemistry specifically? I work at an obscenely wealthy private R1 and our departments/labs are getting unilaterally slammed because so much funding comes from industry, which I assumed was also the case in the Bay due to the proximity to biotech and startups. 

Edit: redundancy

You mentioned private institutions seem to be getting slammed less than public, so I was making a general statement that Berkeley CoC funding is mostly from their research grants than any other part of the school (which relies on tuition and public funds) so I don't think there would be as much of a difference between Columbia and Berkeley in terms of funding. I don't know the exact funding situation and I'm not saying that Berkeley won't be impacted at all. Just not as much as a typical public school would and (I predict) not that different from Columbia. I used to work for the call center asking alumni for donations when I was an undergrad there and we had vastly higher goals for CoE and CoC compared to the rest of campus just because those higher amounts were actually attainable. And it always felt weird knowing how much money we were making that was exclusively for the CoC and couldn't be used elsewhere.

[isk20]

19 minutes ago, joysii said:

You mentioned private institutions seem to be getting slammed less than public, so I was making a general statement that Berkeley CoC funding is mostly from their research grants than any other part of the school (which relies on tuition and public funds) so I don't think there would be as much of a difference between Columbia and Berkeley in terms of funding. I don't know the exact funding situation and I'm not saying that Berkeley won't be impacted at all. Just not as much as a typical public school would and (I predict) not that different from Columbia. I used to work for the call center asking alumni for donations when I was an undergrad there and we had vastly higher goals for CoE and CoC compared to the rest of campus just because those higher amounts were actually attainable. And it always felt weird knowing how much money we were making that was exclusively for the CoC and couldn't be used elsewhere.

Oh, I see. To clarify my comment about private vs public, private universities tend to get more help via federal funds and have larger endowments on the whole, so funding tends to be safer - but that's not always the case, of course (as my institution shows).

Thanks a lot! I really appreciate all of the input and information you've provided.

[cheekylittleduck]

Hi there! I'm procrastinating and recently accepted my offer to Columbia chemistry earlier today (came across here by searching columbia lol)

I spent a summer in Berkeley so I got to hear all the good gossip about the school. I should preface and say that I'm not in synthesis, but the grad students told me all about the synthesis groups at Berkeley. I think unfortunately, as it seems to be, synthetic work gets the short end of the stick out of anywhere you go but in Berkeley it seems especially bad. Its very physically demanding and the science takes an excrutiatingly long time, so its just the nature of the work.

That being said, one might hope that a professor doesn't schedule group meetings on weekends. Several Berkeley professors do this, sometimes late into a Saturday to insure their students are still there. One might hope that a Berkely PI graduates women at as equally as the men. Some Berkeley professors do not do this. Some Berkeley professors have a history of being at other schools and climbing the ranks to get to Berkeley, effectively abandonding their students, claiming 'they weren't creative enough', forcing students to restart or leave their PhDs. I don't want to name any names, but in the remaining time you should probably reach out to grad students in the labs you're interested in and see how the professor exerts pressure on the group.

I had a friend who ultimately rejected a certain professor at Berkeley who really wanted them to join, so as soon as they rejected Berkeley the professor turned very very nasty. Luckily they dodged a bullet. 

Columbia's synthesis isn't entirely innocent either but I don't have enough information to say anything. When I asked about bad groups they told me since I'm not in synthesis I shouldn't have to worry about it. 

[isk20]

Well, I bit the bullet tonight. I’ll see both of you at Columbia this fall! (Provided the school is open, which seems kinda doubtful atm.)

Tom Rovis is actually a big draw for me - his research is super interesting and he made a great impression on me at the visit weekend. But I’d be happy joining some of the more biological groups as well.