How do you work with a laid-back professor? Thank you for your advice!

[wasabigirl]

Hello everyone,               (sorry this question is long, but I am just so confused and worried. I appreciate your support). 

I am now doing my PhD in Clinical Psychology. My supervisor is a very friendly woman. She got her tenure about few years ago and is in her early 40s. She is approachable. She likes to chat with students (chatting about travels, her family and teaching experience). She is a great instructor. A lot of students told me that she teaches very well. However, I have found her supervising style is not a good fit for me that she is super super hands-off. 

I am just entering to my second year, and there's another student who recently defended his thesis and will go to his internship in September. I remember when last year I entered the program, he didn't tell me much. He just said our supervisor is friendly but alright with research. He didn't go into details. I think he didn't want to speak ill of our  supervisor. At that time, I was not accepted into other PhD program in Clinical Psychology, so I chose to come here. I enjoyed all my course work, and my peers are quite friendly, but I don't really like my lab environment. 

I don't know if I should change a supervisor, but I am worried that I will upset her since she is the one who gave me interview and accepted me. Without her, I would not have a school to go. I am also thinking about volunteering in a second lab, but I am not sure if that would work. I appreciate the support and advice from all of you. Here are the reason:

1) Supervising style: I found my supervisor does not spending too much time on her students in terms of mentoring research. She wants students to think of their own projects and rarely gives much advice. This is later confirmed by the senior student in my lab. He also often found it frustrated that the supervisor was not really helping him to conceptualize his dissertation and other research projects. 

I am now writing up a research proposal for a project that I am going to work on. I found there's not much help from my supervisor. We will meet for sure, and she is always friendly and nice. She won't turn down meeting, but I found those meeting is not really that helpful. She usually just asks my ideas and asks me to write up. The good thing is that she return my first draft very quickly, within 1 week, and I can continue work on my second draft (there are feedback, but not much). 

2) Competency (?)  I often found when i asked my supervisor a question, it appeared that she does not have the knowledge to offer much guidance to me. This is also confirmed by the senior student who also thinks in this way. I remember when I joined his PhD dissertation progress meeting, his committee members found a few mistakes that he made but my supervisor didn't find those mistakes. After the progress meeting, I ask him how he felt. He said, "well, you know, that's how you work with this supervisor, not much help".

We have two research consultants in my program, which is great. I consulted the professor who is the research consult. And he is amazing. He gave me so much reading and guidance. I found discussing with him is 10 times more helpful than talking to my supervisor.  However, since he is not my supervisor, I could only focus on the research methods. 

3) Negative lab environments: I found our lab does not have much collaboration. People just do their own things. I initially have 2 seniors students above me, but one left to another supervisor. The one who stayed didn't want to help me with anything. For example, when my supervisor said I could discuss with my research projects with the senior student, I emailed him, but he refused to help. He kept saying he is busy and has no time. Two of my classmates (in my cohort) told me that their senior students in their lab are very friend and helped each other with research. But these things do not happen in my lab. I never get any help or have any discussion opportunity with my lab members.  In addition, Our lab meeting is very scarce...around 4 times a semester while other labs have weekly or bi-weekly meeting. I found no support here. 

 

I actually don't really know what do to. I am thinking to volunteer in a different lab to learn new things since I don't feel I am progressing much in my research. 

My goal is to become a Clinical Psychologist, so publication is not that important. However, I feel I miss so many interesting learning in research. I appreciate your suggestions! 

 

[transfatfree]

I'm sorry this is happening to you, but it seems that you've already identified different directions you can go about it. And what decision you make is pretty much based on what you prioritize.

My first suggestion would be to find out more about what happened with the senior student who left your supervisor. Culture within a department varies but it is not uncommon for someone to switch advisors. Just that some students may be worried about possible repercussions. Although you can choose your dissertation committee, you may not be able to choose who assesses you for comps for example. Finding out how your supervisor responded to that student's switch can be helpful. 

In terms of supervision style, it sounds like you would like your supervisor to be more hands-on, but it seems that she might not be that helpful even if she was more hands-on. Is the research project you are working on in her area of expertise? If it is not, it is common for supervisors not to know it all, and they may refer you to people who know more about that area for consultation or co-supervision if possible. However, I've also seen professors whose competence is questionable. As you mentioned, a downside is that you are not learning as much from her, but an upside is that they are not demanding. 

Volunteering in another lab is a useful strategy. You can use it to fill the gap in your research training. If you do well there and decide to switch advisors later, it will also be a smoother transition. However, workload does add up as you spend more time on practicum/externship so that is something you should consider too. Based on your experience, I'm not surprised that the other senior student in your lab is unwilling to help you when he may be struggling just like you without enough guidance. It sucks not to have that mentorship but that's not something you have control over. You can possibly experience a "real" research team/lab if you decide to volunteer in another lab.

As you ultimately want to practice, you may want to think about how much time you are willing to spend on research training. While it is extremely helpful to be able to understand and/or do advanced research, it'll take time and efforts. You're entering your second year so you have more wiggle room to consider these different factors. Good luck!

[wasabigirl]

3 hours ago, transfatfree said:

I'm sorry this is happening to you, but it seems that you've already identified different directions you can go about it. And what decision you make is pretty much based on what you prioritize.

My first suggestion would be to find out more about what happened with the senior student who left your supervisor. Culture within a department varies but it is not uncommon for someone to switch advisors. Just that some students may be worried about possible repercussions. Although you can choose your dissertation committee, you may not be able to choose who assesses you for comps for example. Finding out how your supervisor responded to that student's switch can be helpful. 

In terms of supervision style, it sounds like you would like your supervisor to be more hands-on, but it seems that she might not be that helpful even if she was more hands-on. Is the research project you are working on in her area of expertise? If it is not, it is common for supervisors not to know it all, and they may refer you to people who know more about that area for consultation or co-supervision if possible. However, I've also seen professors whose competence is questionable. As you mentioned, a downside is that you are not learning as much from her, but an upside is that they are not demanding. 

Volunteering in another lab is a useful strategy. You can use it to fill the gap in your research training. If you do well there and decide to switch advisors later, it will also be a smoother transition. However, workload does add up as you spend more time on practicum/externship so that is something you should consider too. Based on your experience, I'm not surprised that the other senior student in your lab is unwilling to help you when he may be struggling just like you without enough guidance. It sucks not to have that mentorship but that's not something you have control over. You can possibly experience a "real" research team/lab if you decide to volunteer in another lab.

As you ultimately want to practice, you may want to think about how much time you are willing to spend on research training. While it is extremely helpful to be able to understand and/or do advanced research, it'll take time and efforts. You're entering your second year so you have more wiggle room to consider these different factors. Good luck!

Hello! Thank you so much for your detailed reply! Appreciated it!

1. Yes, the professor is in my area. I am doing a research in her field too (I am not saying which field in case my supervisor is also seeing this forum). Not sure why she couldn't really give much constructive advice, and it's more obvious when the research gets harder. 

2. I know why the other student left. I never spoke with her, but from her cohort (the other student I know), she prefers hands-on professor, so she switched at her 3rd year. Also I heard from others that she is a bit too laidback, so she needs professor to push her. And her new professor is very attentive to students and always push students for publication. I don't know how my supervisor thought of that, but I heard my senior student in my lab that our professor was "cool" for the switch and didn't really say much things. I will find out more what does it mean "cool". 

On the other hand, my professor is so laid-back. We are now working on a project that we hope to publish. I already finished my final draft of the manuscript in mid-February, but has not heard anything back from her at all... not sure what's happening. 

3. And I appreciate your suggestions. I agree with you that volunteering in another lab, though it's good, can be demanding as well. I may have to consider my workload for sure. I think I need to discuss with another lab's professor to see what's the expectation of their lab in terms of workload...etc. 

 

Thank you again! 

Edited April 24, 2020 by wasabigirl

[transfatfree]

19 hours ago, wasabigirl said:

Hello! Thank you so much for your detailed reply! Appreciated it!

1. Yes, the professor is in my area. I am doing a research in her field too (I am not saying which field in case my supervisor is also seeing this forum). Not sure why she couldn't really give much constructive advice, and it's more obvious when the research gets harder. 

2. I know why the other student left. I never spoke with her, but from her cohort (the other student I know), she prefers hands-on professor, so she switched at her 3rd year. Also I heard from others that she is a bit too laidback, so she needs professor to push her. And her new professor is very attentive to students and always push students for publication. I don't know how my supervisor thought of that, but I heard my senior student in my lab that our professor was "cool" for the switch and didn't really say much things. I will find out more what does it mean "cool". 

On the other hand, my professor is so laid-back. We are now working on a project that we hope to publish. I already finished my final draft of the manuscript in mid-February, but has not heard anything back from her at all... not sure what's happening. 

3. And I appreciate your suggestions. I agree with you that volunteering in another lab, though it's good, can be demanding as well. I may have to consider my workload for sure. I think I need to discuss with another lab's professor to see what's the expectation of their lab in terms of workload...etc. 

 

Thank you again! 

It's unclear whether she does not have sufficient subject knowledge or advisory skills. Giving good feedback is something that needs training, which may not be something she was exposed to. There are definitely professors who can get by through collaboration with others without contributing much. 

If she's this laid back, you may need to push her and send her reminders from time to time. My advisor is terrible at keeping up with emails too so I just need to check in with them if they don't respond after a period of time. It can be frustrating. My cohort members joked about how I have been advising myself but as I decided to stick with them, I just have to accept that there's more I can do in order to graduate. So it sounds like the student who left was looking for what works best for her. Like you said, some students may not be able to stay productive unless their advisor stays on top of things and pushes them. You seem like driven enough to motivate yourself but looking for additional research experiences that others are getting in the program. If your advisor is cool with it and this is something you really want, hopefully you'll be able to identify a lab and advisor that makes for you.

 

[wasabigirl]

3 hours ago, transfatfree said:

It's unclear whether she does not have sufficient subject knowledge or advisory skills. Giving good feedback is something that needs training, which may not be something she was exposed to. There are definitely professors who can get by through collaboration with others without contributing much. 

If she's this laid back, you may need to push her and send her reminders from time to time. My advisor is terrible at keeping up with emails too so I just need to check in with them if they don't respond after a period of time. It can be frustrating. My cohort members joked about how I have been advising myself but as I decided to stick with them, I just have to accept that there's more I can do in order to graduate. So it sounds like the student who left was looking for what works best for her. Like you said, some students may not be able to stay productive unless their advisor stays on top of things and pushes them. You seem like driven enough to motivate yourself but looking for additional research experiences that others are getting in the program. If your advisor is cool with it and this is something you really want, hopefully you'll be able to identify a lab and advisor that makes for you.

 

Thank you so much again for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it a lot! 

[PsyZei]

I had something similar to this come up. I wonder if you would classify your professor as more laid back or more laissez faire?

I have worked with both, and the laid back one (who I worked with on a small research project) was wonderful to work with (I could go to them with issues or for help and get help, they more or less left me alone other then that, and when an issue came up- like with irb, they were so chill about it that I found myself not freaking out either).

Laissez faire on the other hand (that I worked with on a grant project), while they were a nice person, I couldn't really get help from (though they were "the expert" for grants at my institute) and it was kind of a nightmare. Guess how far that grant went? Yeah, nowhere. They were just way too hands off and I couldn't get what I needed from them. If I could go back, I would have switched to someone else (saying something like, I know you are busy and our availability doesn't seem to be lining up well, so I want to work with so and so- but would love if you could also review the final grant if you want), despite the potential issues, because I had a good grant idea and really think it could have done well if I had a better advisor for it.

I've also worked with a very hands on professor (for medium-ish research project) who was as awesome as the laid back professor to work with. I also definitely got everything done on time, cause I didn't want to disappoint them by being late AND because they gave me the tools I needed to figure out how to do what they were wanting from me/what I needed to be doing. 

I've also worked with a professor that was downright abusive. My best advise for that is change as soon as you can. I almost waited too long because I was afraid of the backlash. The thing is, they are going to abuse you whether you switch advisors or not, so you might as well get to work with someone you'll actually be able to complete the project with while dealing with their abuse on the side- rather than dealing with their abuse AND having them sabotage your work.

That ended up longer than I meant (sorry for that), but in the end I would base it on your mental health and if having this PI is going to affect your ability to graduate (since you said that it's not a big deal if you don't do too much research- maybe having them isn't that big of a deal). If this is negatively affecting your mental health &/or going to affect your ability to graduate, then please advocate for yourself so that you can get what you need. Especially if you think you have someone who will be okay with you switching to them. That's what I did with the abusive PI, I talked to the person I wanted to work with and made sure they were willing to deal with any possible backlash too. When they said yes, I wasted very little time going through the proper channels to get official permission to switch.

Good luck, I hope things work out for you!