Program's Writing Sample Page Length

[Potato Cactus]

Hi all, 

I have noticed that programs vary in their maximum page length for the writing sample. Some programs recommend a length between 10-15 pages, while others 15-20 pages, or 20-25 pages, and still yet others with no maximum length but recommend around 20 pages. 

I understand that as a general rule of thumb the writing sample should be around 15-20 pages, and generally no more than 20 pages. Admissions committees just simply don't have the time to read samples much longer, and a tighter writing sample is more impressive (15-20 pages). https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/bernhardnickel/files/grad-apps-ws.pdf

Now suppose a committee gets a writing sample that is 21 pages long, or perhaps 22 pages long, and let's assume that the writing sample has been edited to be as concise as possible (not much can be edited without loosing content to the arguments). Will programs that require writing samples to be around 10-15 pages or 15-20 pages consider the length of this writing sample to be a negative factor? Will the application get a ding because the length exceeds the programs maximum page length? 

(We can measure length in word count, but the same concern can be made by exceeding the maximum word count by 250-500 words)

[PolPhil]

Don't worry about the length too much. Try for 15-20. Definitely don't go under 10 or over 25. Send the same length of sample to every program.

[maxhgns]

If the length is 10-15 pages, and you submit 21-22, then you have exceeded the required length by 40%-120%. That's way too much.

If it's 15-20, then you're exceeding it by 5%-47%. That's fine at the low end, too much at the high end.

 

You can give yourself room to manoeuvre of about 10%. More than that is excessive. Enlist someone's help to help you cut. There are also good tips here.

Edited September 9, 2020 by maxhgns

[platonetsocrate]

I second that 15-20 pages is generally a good length. 

I would caution against going over 20, though. Professors have a LOT of writing samples to read, and it’s not very likely, I think, that any given writing sample is so well-edited that it can’t be made more concise at all. Further, it seems that we tend to act like conciseness is just a matter of removing things until nothing can be taken out without losing content to the argument. But really, many papers (especially student papers like the writing sample) take on too much, in terms of argument, in the first place. I’d say that if one is in a situation where they have a 21+ page writing sample, and feel that they cannot take out anything else without losing argument content, they ought to seriously reevaluate the arguments they make in the paper and whether those arguments really make the paper better. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by platonetsocrate

[Marcus_Aurelius]

I edited my sample to fit the length requirement for each program (the "full" version was about 17.5 pages, so couple programs involved cutting 2.5ish pages and a couple involved adding 2.5ish pages, of material that I had previously cut for space). I have no inside info here, and it presumably varies so much based on who's reading the sample, but maxhgns' advice seems sound.

[Potato Cactus]

Thanks everybody for the help, I'll be sure to check for unnecessary argumentative burdens and get a few professors' help! 

[PolPhil]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:53 AM, maxhgns said:

If the length is 10-15 pages, and you submit 21-22, then you have exceeded the required length by 40%-120%. That's way too much.

If it's 15-20, then you're exceeding it by 5%-47%. That's fine at the low end, too much at the high end.

 

You can give yourself room to manoeuvre of about 10%. More than that is excessive. Enlist someone's help to help you cut. There are also good tips here.

Have you actually talked to profs, people on adcoms, and successful applicants, or are you inferring this on your own?

Edit: Not insinuating that you haven't. It's just that, from the conversations that I've had with these people, you're wrong. But perhaps you have better info than me!

Edited September 13, 2020 by PolPhil

[maxhgns]

23 hours ago, PolPhil said:

Have you actually talked to profs, people on adcoms, and successful applicants, or are you inferring this on your own?

Edit: Not insinuating that you haven't. It's just that, from the conversations that I've had with these people, you're wrong. But perhaps you have better info than me!

I'm inferring it based on my own experience, my experience securing grants, applicants I've known, and paying attention to application cycles (here and elsewhere) for the last eleven years. Nothing more. I'm not on an admissions committee, never have been, and am unlikely to ever be.

But look, my point is this: 10% over-under is a good rule of thumb. 100%+ is not. If the page limit is 10, you really can't hand in 20. You have to pay attention to the formatting requirements. There's plenty of room to disagree about what counts as a reasonable percentage over-under, but I really don't think 40% is the number, either. One thing I know for a fact is that if you're applying for external funding (e.g. SSHRC, FRQSC, Fulbright, etc.) and your application doesn't meet the formatting requirements, it will be binned immediately.

Philosophy admissions is obviously more flexible than external funding agencies are. And exceptions can and do sneak through the cracks. But you absolutely shouldn't make it your policy to flagrantly disregard the application instructions. It's inconsiderate, rude, and if accepted it would put the other applicants--who followed the instructions--at a comparative disadvantage. You're not special, you're one of dozens--hundreds, even--of excellent candidates. If I were on a committee (which, again, I'm not and am unlikely to ever be), I'd disregard applications which flagrantly flouted the instructions. In my teaching, when I assign a 1000-word essay, I'm happy to accept submissions at 800-1200 words, although franky that's pushing it a bit. But 500 or 2000 words? No way.

When I send a paper to a conference, the word limit is usually 3000. I've sometimes snuck in papers which were 3200-3400 words (counting references), although that's a bit dicey; much better to hit the 3000 mark. But as someone who's organized a lot of conferences in philosophy, I can tell you that anyone who sends, say, 4000-5000 words gets binned immediately, sight unseen, no questions asked. Journal submissions, too: you can sometimes get away with going a little over the hard limit, especially if that's due to your list of works cited, but you can't count on it. Better to hit the limit for the first-round submission, then exceed it at the R&R stage (which is OK, although even there commonsense considerations apply).

The page limit is not a hard limit, but it's not a suggestion, either. You can definitely exceed it. But you need to exercise some caution and common sense when you do so. You need to remember that you aren't the only applicant, and you're not some special exception to all of the normal rules and procedures. You're just one among dozens or even hundreds of applicants who are all really good.

Edited September 14, 2020 by maxhgns

[Olórin]

I submitted a 25 page paper to a program that asked for 10-15 pages. They admitted me. I wouldn’t sweat it too much, the adcom  probably didn’t even know what the application website stipulated. 

[PolPhil]

On 9/14/2020 at 5:23 PM, maxhgns said:

I'm inferring it based on my own experience, my experience securing grants, applicants I've known, and paying attention to application cycles (here and elsewhere) for the last eleven years. Nothing more. I'm not on an admissions committee, never have been, and am unlikely to ever be.

But look, my point is this: 10% over-under is a good rule of thumb. 100%+ is not. If the page limit is 10, you really can't hand in 20. You have to pay attention to the formatting requirements. There's plenty of room to disagree about what counts as a reasonable percentage over-under, but I really don't think 40% is the number, either. One thing I know for a fact is that if you're applying for external funding (e.g. SSHRC, FRQSC, Fulbright, etc.) and your application doesn't meet the formatting requirements, it will be binned immediately.

Philosophy admissions is obviously more flexible than external funding agencies are. And exceptions can and do sneak through the cracks. But you absolutely shouldn't make it your policy to flagrantly disregard the application instructions. It's inconsiderate, rude, and if accepted it would put the other applicants--who followed the instructions--at a comparative disadvantage. You're not special, you're one of dozens--hundreds, even--of excellent candidates. If I were on a committee (which, again, I'm not and am unlikely to ever be), I'd disregard applications which flagrantly flouted the instructions. In my teaching, when I assign a 1000-word essay, I'm happy to accept submissions at 800-1200 words, although franky that's pushing it a bit. But 500 or 2000 words? No way.

When I send a paper to a conference, the word limit is usually 3000. I've sometimes snuck in papers which were 3200-3400 words (counting references), although that's a bit dicey; much better to hit the 3000 mark. But as someone who's organized a lot of conferences in philosophy, I can tell you that anyone who sends, say, 4000-5000 words gets binned immediately, sight unseen, no questions asked. Journal submissions, too: you can sometimes get away with going a little over the hard limit, especially if that's due to your list of works cited, but you can't count on it. Better to hit the limit for the first-round submission, then exceed it at the R&R stage (which is OK, although even there commonsense considerations apply).

The page limit is not a hard limit, but it's not a suggestion, either. You can definitely exceed it. But you need to exercise some caution and common sense when you do so. You need to remember that you aren't the only applicant, and you're not some special exception to all of the normal rules and procedures. You're just one among dozens or even hundreds of applicants who are all really good.

Yeah that's reasonable advice. The only caveat I'd add is that I know many successful applicants who sent the same 25ish-page sample to every program. This evidence is anecdotal, for sure, but not insignificant.

I appreciate the level of detail in your advice, and I'm sure others do as well.

[SmugSnugInARug]

I guess the thing I’d offer is that if one person on a committee is a stickler for page-length (and who hasn’t run into a professor like that?) that person is gonna throw out your application.

So while there might be many successful applicants who get in because they never got those people, do you really want to risk it? Do you want to be one of the 1/5/10% of applicants this happens to?

Obviously pinning down a number on this percentage is (basically) impossible, but the risk just isn’t worth it. And I get it, cutting sucks, its so hard, but its really an essential skill.

[PhilCoffee]

Are the notes included when you guys talking about page lengths? In that case, I wonder do anyone attempt to restrict page length by reducing the notes, or by not using double-space with notes?

[Marcus_Aurelius]

I generally assumed that bibliography wasn't included in length (unless otherwise specified) but notes were included. Others may have different experience, though.

[Glasperlenspieler]

1 hour ago, Marcus_Aurelius said:

I generally assumed that bibliography wasn't included in length (unless otherwise specified) but notes were included. Others may have different experience, though.

I don't know if it matters that much, but I would agree with this, especially since endnotes are evil and should be avoided, so footnotes would naturally contribute to the length of the paper.

[PhilCoffee]

16 hours ago, Marcus_Aurelius said:

I generally assumed that bibliography wasn't included in length (unless otherwise specified) but notes were included. Others may have different experience, though.

Curious about whether people generally double space their endnotes?

[PolPhil]

On 9/22/2020 at 1:46 AM, PhilCoffee said:

Curious about whether people generally double space their endnotes?

I've never heard of people doing that. It's not recommended by any of the style guides as far as I know.

[ak71]

Hey guys, just a basic question about the paper format: are we talking double-spaced when we're talking about page length (especially for those programs that don't specify this -- some do)? I have received confusing remarks on this: some say that double-spaced is assumed by default; some say otherwise. Any thoughts on this? That would make a whole lot of difference for me, at least.

[Olórin]

52 minutes ago, ak71 said:

Hey guys, just a basic question about the paper format: are we talking double-spaced when we're talking about page length (especially for those programs that don't specify this -- some do)? I have received confusing remarks on this: some say that double-spaced is assumed by default; some say otherwise. Any thoughts on this? That would make a whole lot of difference for me, at least.

100% double spaced for grad applications.