Please help me choose a school

[To divinity and beyond]

Good morning everyone,

New member here who has been a long time lurker. I am a third-year student at a small and little known TRACS accredited Bible college who intends to enter into an MDiv program for ordained ministry (military chaplaincy) in the evangelical tradition. A caveat however, is that I fell in love with scholarship in the first year of my studies and acquired a very strong desire and drive to go into academia after ministry. Thus, at some point I will go for a ThM/STM then a PhD/ThD in Theology, Hebrew Bible or New Testament. After spending a generous amount of time reading threads on here and other places, I have garnered that institutions such as Princeton Theological Seminary, Duke Divinity School and the University of Notre Dame are considered top tier, while evangelical schools trail far behind. I started to recognize some of this in that I was left wanting in many areas from my own school. I am quite confident that an MDiv from PTS (if I were admitted) would be viewed with immense suspicion by the denomination that I intend to serve in. Accordingly, I have sought and have narrowed my choices down to two schools which I believe would give me sufficient ministerial preparation while providing an at least decent academic preparation and yet would not be a roadblock to ordination. They are Fuller Theological Seminary and Beeson Divinity School.

I will be applying to both, but I would like to know, from your point of view and if possible from schools like those mentioned above, which of these two institutions has the better academic reputation? Which will actually better prepare me for the kind of study that I am seeking in the future? Are there any other institutions that I am missing? I considered Gordon-Conwell Theological Semimary and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School but I have heard that their commitment to biblical inerrancy is often seen as a hindrance. Also, if you think that I should go to an institution like PTS or YDS, I would like to hear you out on that aswell.

Finances are not an issue as I will be using my GI Bill. Neither is distance since I am willing to move. I am also aware that the professor job market is absolutely horrid. Nevertheless, I want to do high level study because I am so interested in those fields and I enjoy having my beliefs challenged.

Thank you for all of your time and help!

[sacklunch]

Given those two options, Fuller easily wins, at least in my opinion (secular person with a PhD from Duke Religion), though it doesn't really have a strong reputation. Fuller is one of those schools that people from R1 departments recognize as acceptable, but not great. On the other hand, you may not care much about getting into an R1 doctoral program, in which case Fuller is probably good if not excellent. Having a PhD from one of the 'excellent' schools, I can say that it doesn't seem to matter much if your plan is academia. You already know the job market is horrid, but it's worth repeating: the job market is horrid. Even if you graduate from an R1, let alone an R2-3, you are not likely to get a full-time, tenure-track job, PERIOD. I would normally dissuade you from this path outright, but since money is not an issue I say why the heck not. Just know that you probably won't have the option of staying in academia, at least in the traditional sense. You're also interested in the most overpopulated fields. I know at least a dozen PhD holders from R1s in those fields without jobs and I know many more who are limping by in adjunct hell. And I know some who finally, after a few years limping by, threw in the towel and changed careers entirely. I would encourage you to explore other interests or if possible study religion/theology in the context of something that will actually get you a job nowadays (blended with programming, e.g.). I remember being at your stage about 15 years ago. I remember the feeling, the excitement, the romanticism; it's intoxicating. I miss that. In some ways this field, the academic study of religion, is exactly how I imagined it; but mostly it's quite different. Coursework is selfish, the ins and outs, the day to day of academia is selfless, but oddly to succeed also usually means sabotaging your personal life. Good luck, friend!

[kor_to_nola]

I also come from a denomination who would get some eyebrows raised if I said I graduated from PTS, YDS or Notre Dame.

If Fuller and Beeson are decent for your decision, why not other evangelical schools? Like DTS, TEDS, or even George W. Truett by Baylor? (Although I'm not sure if they have chaplaincy) Are you trying to stay around Cali? If location is not your problem, consider schools in other location. 

Biblical Inerrancy is a hindrance, but I do see quite a few PhD folks from TEDS, GCTS, and DTS over in Top Tier schools. If you come from an evangelical school, then try to show your diversity and openness to academia through academic writings, your SOP, and some other elements in the application process.

If you are wanting stay within your denomination, consider UK schools also. UK PhDs come across acceptable(even honorable) around conservative denominations. Some well respected conservative professors come with UK PhDs. They are expensive, but consider it. An adequate route would be then to go into M.div, possibly do a ThM from one of those prestigious Top-Tier schools, then go into UK. 

[To divinity and beyond]

Thank you @sacklunch . I appreciate that you did not beat around the bush at all with your input. It was very helpful.

I am interested in getting into an R1 doctoral program, but not in teaching at such institutions. I would picture myself as a professor at a place somewhere more along the lines of TEDS. I recall you stating somewhere that even though you are a secular person, you have a strong interest in your field mainly because of its richness and impact on culture. I have similar sentiments and really just want to learn as much as physically possible about these fields that I am so fond of. Accomplishing that does not seem feasible to me without taking this path. If I cannot land a job in academia, so be it. I am sure what I learn will be useful in ministerial settings since I do not think that I will ever stop pastoring in some form. I am also definitely hoping to bring a stronger intellectual presence to the church in the northern California area.

Having said that, in your opinion, how would you order Beeson, TEDS and Gordon-Conwell in terms of academic reputation and preparation? I am asking for my own circles.

[To divinity and beyond]

Thank you @kor_to_nola . I am not in particular trying to stay in Cali, athough moving to Europe would be a big stretch. Some of the German schools and Oxford do interest me. DTS seems to be too one-sided for my tastes, and I have read from a Truett alumnus that the seminary is sort of distanced from the rest of the university and there is much more of a ministerial emphasis than academic. Nevertheless, I really do like what I have heard about TEDS and GCTS (I was originally set on GCTS because of the BTI). I think your advice on showing openness in the application process is probably better than worrying too much about where to go. I do not think my denomination would fret over anywhere I choose to go except for my MDiv. I have not actually even chosen one yet but I have an idea of which one it will be. I only want to fully commit once I have completed my MDiv since I will be able to make a more informed decision by then. I have looked at UK programs and my issue is that they are much shorter than US doctorates.

[sacklunch]

1 hour ago, To divinity and beyond said:

Thank you @sacklunch . I appreciate that you did not beat around the bush at all with your input. It was very helpful.

I am interested in getting into an R1 doctoral program, but not in teaching at such institutions. I would picture myself as a professor at a place somewhere more along the lines of TEDS. I recall you stating somewhere that even though you are a secular person, you have a strong interest in your field mainly because of its richness and impact on culture. I have similar sentiments and really just want to learn as much as physically possible about these fields that I am so fond of. Accomplishing that does not seem feasible to me without taking this path. If I cannot land a job in academia, so be it. I am sure what I learn will be useful in ministerial settings since I do not think that I will ever stop pastoring in some form. I am also definitely hoping to bring a stronger intellectual presence to the church in the northern California area.

Having said that, in your opinion, how would you order Beeson, TEDS and Gordon-Conwell in terms of academic reputation and preparation? I am asking for my own circles.

So long as you're okay with not landing any job in academia I support your decision fully! It's great that you have pastoral interests (if only I believed in god/s), since such training will not be entirely for naught, should my prognostication come true! As for those schools' reputation, I have never even heard of Beeson, so that may mean something; I had to google TEDS, but I am vaguely familiar with Trinity; I have heard of GC over the years and have met numerous people who did an M* there who later did doctoral programs at R1s (I can think of one now with a Harvard ThD). As you may have heard, schools like GC are known for pushing languages hard on their students and thus R1 departments (esp. faculty in biblical studies) like them. On the other hand, as I have also learned from first hand experience, language courses at Protestant seminaries seem to underprepare students learning languages when compared to students who took the same courses at secular or Catholic seminaries. The reason, I think, is pretty simple: at the Protestant schools, there is usually a decent theological component to every course, including languages, while that component is either missing (secular schools) or minimal (Catholic) in non-Prot. language classes. In practice that means spending less time memorizing/studying verbs, syntax, etc. Not only that but secular programs almost always have better trained students in Greek and Latin, since the focus is not so hilariously narrow (i.e. studying NT Greek). So I suppose if you get a chance/have the option, always take the non-seminary language course. Learning those languages and learning them well will be the biggest challenge of getting into an R1 (note I am speaking about NT and related fields and that I am speaking as an ancient historian). Happy evening!

[xypathos]

Can confirm - I know several recent PhD grads from HYC in theology that are 1) forced to take a part-time lecturer position at their school, sometimes called the new grad gap year, 2) are on #2+ post-doc, 3) said fuck it and moved to Europe or Asia to teach, or 4) gave up on academia and went to other fields.

Enter into this with an open mind and don't close any career doors just yet.

[To divinity and beyond]

On 10/20/2021 at 6:58 PM, sacklunch said:

So long as you're okay with not landing any job in academia I support your decision fully! It's great that you have pastoral interests (if only I believed in god/s), since such training will not be entirely for naught, should my prognostication come true! As for those schools' reputation, I have never even heard of Beeson, so that may mean something; I had to google TEDS, but I am vaguely familiar with Trinity; I have heard of GC over the years and have met numerous people who did an M* there who later did doctoral programs at R1s (I can think of one now with a Harvard ThD). As you may have heard, schools like GC are known for pushing languages hard on their students and thus R1 departments (esp. faculty in biblical studies) like them. On the other hand, as I have also learned from first hand experience, language courses at Protestant seminaries seem to underprepare students learning languages when compared to students who took the same courses at secular or Catholic seminaries. The reason, I think, is pretty simple: at the Protestant schools, there is usually a decent theological component to every course, including languages, while that component is either missing (secular schools) or minimal (Catholic) in non-Prot. language classes. In practice that means spending less time memorizing/studying verbs, syntax, etc. Not only that but secular programs almost always have better trained students in Greek and Latin, since the focus is not so hilariously narrow (i.e. studying NT Greek). So I suppose if you get a chance/have the option, always take the non-seminary language course. Learning those languages and learning them well will be the biggest challenge of getting into an R1 (note I am speaking about NT and related fields and that I am speaking as an ancient historian). Happy evening!

I appreciate your support and also your answers. It does seem like languages are king when it comes down to it. I will strive to apply what you have told me. Thank you @sacklunch . Best to you. If your training has been for naught, may that be changed. If it has not, may it never.

[To divinity and beyond]

On 10/21/2021 at 10:58 AM, xypathos said:

Can confirm - I know several recent PhD grads from HYC in theology that are 1) forced to take a part-time lecturer position at their school, sometimes called the new grad gap year, 2) are on #2+ post-doc, 3) said fuck it and moved to Europe or Asia to teach, or 4) gave up on academia and went to other fields.

Enter into this with an open mind and don't close any career doors just yet.

Thank you for the heads up and advice @xypathos . I will try to tread as carefully and as openly as I am able moving forward.