Kennedy School Chances (MPP)?

[Sachin]

Hey Everyone -- I'm applying to the KSG this Fall. I'd appreciate your take on my application and your advice on where I might try to strengthen my application. Specifically, I'd like your take on how well I need to score on the GRE (taking it in November) to get in. I'm pretty sure that'll be the weakest aspect of my application. Do you think a 620(V) 630(Q) would cut it for my application? Also, what do you think my chances are at Berkeley, Duke (MPP), Chicago (MPP), Syracuse(MPA), and USC(MPA).

Undergrad:

UC Berkeley

3.9 GPA (environmental policy)

Demographics: male, indian-american, 21

Work Experience:

San Jose City Council - Policy Analyst (1 year at time of application)

Responsible for advising the councilmember on political and legislative issues, frequent speechwriting, drafting press releases, policy analysis, conducting research, attending community and stakeholder meetings on behalf of the councilmember, speaking on behalf of the councilmember, event planning, community outreach, public relations, constituent casework, and other related matters as requested. My policy portfolio includes: budget, education, housing, labor, economic development, redevelopment agency, public transit, airport, marijuana/tobacco, and environmental issues.

The White House - Intern ( 3 months)

Worked with the Council on Environmental Quality.

Office of U.S. Senator, Dianne Feinstein (5 months)

Worked on energy, environmental, and international narcotics issues.

Menlo Park High School Speech and Debate Program – Assistant Coach (1 year)

Responsible for teaching students debate, editing and reviewing cases, preparing argumentation, etc etc.

Greenaction for Health and Environmental Justice - Public Outreach Consultant (3 months)

I was hired to construct the foundations of a public outreach program that would enhance Greenaction's reach and increase funds in order to take on more campaigns.

Fund For Public Interest Research - Field Manager / Campaign and Lobby Coordinator (1 year)

Organized grassroots campaigns for different non-profit groups such as the Human Rights Campaign, CALPIRG, and Environment California.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Sachin

[pwnt]

[disclaimer: have never applied to mpp programs]

i think you're a great applicant (particularly strong gpa). and you seem to have lots of WE. i'm interested to hear what others will say about the quality/strength of your WE.

[DrFaustus666]

There's no question you've got a great record.

Can you get Senator Feinstein to write you a Letter of Recommendation? That would be a big help.

I believe your GRE scores are a bit problematic, particularly the Q score.

I've read on this forum and other places that for the Ivies (even in their lesser-known humanities departments, to say nothing of the world-famous Kennedy School of Government), a 720-750 is "expected" in Quant, as is a 700 in Verbal. That's just gossip though. I have not looked at their website or applied there myself.

John

[Sachin]

Edit: *Intern in Feinstein's office. Forgot to add that.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Sachin

[beaverish]

There's no question you've got a great record.

Can you get Senator Feinstein to write you a Letter of Recommendation? That would be a big help.

I believe your GRE scores are a bit problematic, particularly the Q score.

I've read on this forum and other places that for the Ivies (even in their lesser-known humanities departments, to say nothing of the world-famous Kennedy School of Government), a 720-750 is "expected" in Quant, as is a 700 in Verbal. That's just gossip though. I have not looked at their website or applied there myself.

John

can you dig the thread up where you found that discussion?

i'm primarily interested in yale and i have 680 Q/710 V/perfect writing and am wondering if i should re-take, given that the cost of re-studying for math would be to hurt my (undergrad) dissertation.

taken from yale's website: "median scores of matriculating students were as follows: Verbal 660, Quantitative 690, Analytic Writing 5." that's a 3 year average too, so... http://jackson.yale.edu/admissions

[DrFaustus666]

can you dig the thread up where you found that discussion?

i'm primarily interested in yale and i have 680 Q/710 V/perfect writing and am wondering if i should re-take, given that the cost of re-studying for math would be to hurt my (undergrad) dissertation.

taken from yale's website: "median scores of matriculating students were as follows: Verbal 660, Quantitative 690, Analytic Writing 5." that's a 3 year average too, so... http://jackson.yale.edu/admissions

A true scholar should never throw around numbers without the citations. I read that about two years ago, and I have no idea where I read it. Though: I vaguely remember the afternoon, cruising around "Ask.com" and "What is a good GRE score?" ... the scores they gave were quite LOW, even for the Ivies (low 600s), and I didn't believe them, so I poked around furhter.

I'm really sorry I can't give you any more accurate info than that. In the end, the only real way to find out is to apply. Or call them. They might just tell you themselves.

Again, I apologize, and I'll try to remember not to sound authoritative when in reality I am not.

Humble apologies,

John

[carpecc]

can you dig the thread up where you found that discussion?

i'm primarily interested in yale and i have 680 Q/710 V/perfect writing and am wondering if i should re-take, given that the cost of re-studying for math would be to hurt my (undergrad) dissertation.

taken from yale's website: "median scores of matriculating students were as follows: Verbal 660, Quantitative 690, Analytic Writing 5." that's a 3 year average too, so... http://jackson.yale.edu/admissions

beaverish, I think those scores are fine, all that you'd be making are small improvements. Concentrate on making an impactful dissertation and use that extra time for the application.

[IdealThinker]

I'm sorry if they reject someone with skills and experience like yours then they are so narrow minded. GRE scores aren't difficult with practice. I think they look at your potential to be a future leader, i'm sure they get loads of people who have wonderful GRE scores etc, but what makes them stand out is their story and experience. Yours definitely stands out. I think you have a good chance.

[colindc]

In speaking with several KSG admissions staff and former students, I would say that Harvard KSG MPP admissions statistics are the following (disclaimer - purely my opinion since Harvard doesn't publish admission stats):

GRE: V: at least 650 Q: at least 700

Ask yourself is your score high enough rather than how high it needs to be. In general, you have to be in the top 20% of GRE takers for that year to make you competitive without admissions looking twice at your score. Typically that range is at least above 90% of test takers on the verbal (~650 and above) and 70% on the quantitative (~700 and above). I honestly don't know how important the essay score is but I'm sure it factors more in cases where verbal competency is not easily demonstrated in other areas such as your GRE verbal score and your personal statement. I did hear that at least 700 is expected on the quantitative since KSG's core curriculum is math-heavy. They will also look at any math courses and your performance in them in undergrad on your provided transcript with your quantitative score to assess whether they think you will succeed in their program. In addition it helps to have one of your letters of recommendation speak to your math prowess such as a professor.

Undergraduate GPA: at least overall 3.5

Enough said. All schools and majors do differ in their difficulty. It helps to have fared in the top of your undergraduate school.

Career experience: at least 2.5-3 years

It helps to have a more substantive position in your field and can demonstrate some professional accomplishments. In forming a student body, KSG looks at professional diversity to see what kind of experiences you will bring. It helps to have moved up your career ladder or to show some leadership potential in your career trajectory in the time you have spent in the workplace. Put in another way, it helps to have a more senior title and show career commitment. It helps to have a letter of recommendation come from a professional source who can speak to your ability to succeed and what you have accomplished thus far as a young professional. Brownie points if the professional source is someone in a leadership position (e.g. Executive Director, Director, President, Chair, etc etc). There are many more things that can be said but keep in mind the MPP is geared toward young professionals in their mid to late twenties who have gotten their feet wet in their career passion.

Personal statement

My hunch is if you pass muster on the three aforementioned things, admissions will read your statement carefully before looking at anything else (just like how an employer looks at the cover letter before closely looking at the resume). There is no foolproof strategy to this. My advice is to 1) tell a story about yourself that is complementary to and cogently ties things in your CV together and 2) identify and elucidate some x factor about you but always in modest fashion. Make sure at least 2 other people read your statement, especially former or current MPPers. Unless you're an amazing writer, be prepared to rewrite it at least a dozen times. Don't forget to explain why you are pursuing an MPP and why Harvard specifically (do your research on the program). In fact, dedicate 2-3 paragraphs to this which could mean 500 words to your story and 500 to why the program. More importantly, this statement also shows your writing skills which is crucial to Harvard's PAE and the program. There is also that extra essay you can write to explain something about your application that you feel is lacking.

Letters of Recs

I would say two things: the importance of letters of recs should be what they are qualified to say and what they say about you. So do not just look at who to get but also what they can say so they are not saying the same things. Most recommendations will want your guidance anyway in what to say. One should come from an academic source who can speak to your academic skills, specifically anything to do with mathematics. Another from a professional source who can speak to your leadership potential and professional success. The third is up to you but make sure the third is not going to repeat what the other two have said. You want a well-rounded recommendation.

Diversity/X factor

One of the more important things that KSG provides is qualitative learning that occurs outside of the classroom among your peers. If you get into the program, you'll be attending classes with world leaders pursuing different degrees sitting next to you, studying with you, competing against you, etc. Think of the relationships and connections and things you'll learn from each other. Do you have something to contribute to them? You have to ask yourself assuming KSG's admissions rate is ~20% and 80% accepted will be admitted: do I have something four out of five other young professionals do not have? Have others been in my position before and therefore my professional history looks the same? Have I been a leader in ways others have not been? Have I done things others have not done that make my life experiences unique to the program? KSG's applicant pool continues to increase making it more competitive and you know they love that.

At the end of the day ask yourself: Am I proud of my application AND am I qualified for KSG?

Applicants who spend time to make sure every i is dotted and t crossed stands out in the mix. A certain amount of dedication does come across if your application is polished. If you feel insecure about something you said or did to your application, you shouldn't have submitted it. Make sure someone proofreads your entire application once complete, not just your personal statement but CV as well.

For the most part we never know why we do or don't get into things and Harvard is no exception. A lot of applicants don't ask themselves if they are qualified for KSG and apply out of a dream or a whim. It should be a strategic and calculated effort that in some way shows in your application. Do your homework on the program. Admissions will have a historical and general perspective as to whether they think you are a good fit including what you will bring to the student body they are assembling.

You should feel proud of your application and feel qualified for KSG. Then at least if you do not get in, you will feel like you did everything you could possibly do and control, and unfortunately were not selected. If it's any comfort, the MPPs I have worked with and worked for do not care so much about what school you went to but what professional experience you have for the job. Sure the H-bomb is nice to drop, but so are 20 or 30 other top MPP programs that are also more affordable.

My two cents.

[IdealThinker]

Thanks soooo much for that. It's really nice of you to have taken the time to write this. Although I have to say I would have appreciated it more if I had read it before I applied. Oh well

[fso2k11]

While there is a cut-off score, I don't think the verbal cut off is a 650. A 600 Verbal is 86th percentile. I bet they have a cut-off score but I've seen people in the boards with a 560v getting into HKS. The cut-off is probably a moving target that cuts the applications-to-review in half.

Thanks soooo much for that. It's really nice of you to have taken the time to write this. Although I have to say I would have appreciated it more if I had read it before I applied. Oh well

[akerenci]

I need your help. I am an international student, my English is not my mother language. What do you think about my chance to be accepted by Harvard Kennedy Master of Public Policy. Despite my satisfying toefl, i could not get a cogent GRE verbal score but since i am not native, i hope the admission committe tolerate it with my toefl score... What do you think? My scores are below:

GPA:3.55

Toefl IBT: 107

GRE Verbal: 149 (440 in the old score system)

GRE Quantitative: 166 (800 in the old system)

Please Reply...

[soaps]

While there is a cut-off score, I don't think the verbal cut off is a 650. A 600 Verbal is 86th percentile. I bet they have a cut-off score but I've seen people in the boards with a 560v getting into HKS. The cut-off is probably a moving target that cuts the applications-to-review in half.

Where is the evidence there is a cut-off score? I got 168v/148q. The quant score is terrible, but I have a 3.89 GPA, good internship/professional/volunteer experiences, etc. I find it hard to believe I'd be put in a slush pile without anyone even reviewing my entire application.

Edited November 20, 2012 by soapwater

[plenum123]

Whether there's a cut-off score line or not, no one should give up their hope in applying. IMO, the total score combined 1,300 (Old system) should suffice for most big name schools. You can take a look at GPPI or CIPA program for the sources. Anyway, keep in mind that WWS, and YALE average GRE is around 1400 combined (Old system), so 750+650, 800+600, or which ever combination you like to pick, so HKS should fall in the same competitive catagory. But International students may not need to do exceptionally well on Verbal since all schools require TOEFL score.

Unlike MBA program, MPA/MPP programs dont need you to interview with them. So it comes down to GRE, GPA, QUAN, WORK EXP., LOR, SOP. And sad but true, most applicants on the forum and WWS website seem to have the same range of GPA and GRE scores. So the cutting edge woud be ESSAYs and work exp. I am sure.

It's the game that the least mistake you make, you win.

P.S. from WWS brochure I picked up at the Adcom session in NYC, 0% of students who got GPA lower than 3.00 got in last year. More than 50% of admitted students had 3-4 + years work exp. More than 60% of admitted students got 700 Quan in GRE (old system) And I watched the VDO link on WWS website, they said that application pile will get screened out 25% before they would read anything , HKS may do the same, dont you think?

http://wws.princeton.edu/coverstories/templeton_interview08/ @ 1.00 and on hope it helps!!

[RealApplicantofGradCafe]

I'm not sure that "75% of our applicants meet quantitative standards [are able to learn what we teach]" is the same as saying they screen out 25% of the applicant pool in a given year. Also, this video is from 2009...

I've always imagined the process as one that has to do more with sorting. Applications that are sorted/rated into a higher GRE/GPA/etc pile would obviously merit more attention than those applications which received the lowest ratings. However, that ideal isn't based upon anything. It could just as well be tossing the applications down a stairwell and accepting only those files that landed on the bottom 3 steps.

Gives a whole new meaning to resume/application padding eh?

[plenum123]

"And because we have an emphasis on statistics and economics, we’re always looking to see what an applicant’s appetite is for those courses and disciplines.

Probably 75 percent of the applicants meet that requirement, so the admissions process shifts towards candidate’s commitment towards public service"

http://www.princeton...ssion/graduate/

Whether there's cut-off or not, the stat implies that you want to be near the average GRE leauge (providing that you have an ordinary background; couple years of work .) The ave. GRE of admitted students = 163V + 159Q. And they pay attention to your academic background before anything else, if they dont screen people out in doing that, I dont think they read your stats for their self pleasure

No! that doesnt mean you have to match the numbers, but 148Q, that "soapwater" got, is questionable (if you put HKS and WWS in the same caliber)

and YES! the higher give you chances, numbers dont lie.

Though the VDO link I provided was from 2009, the sample size (quality, number of applicants) should fluctuate +- 10%.

Good scores + related qaun courses will not get you the spot, but bad scores and non-quan will definitely ruin your chances big time, it's no brainer.

Surely, EXP and other aspects will count as well as others mentioned above (but after you pass the academic requirement) and YES you can try applying whatever scores or background you have I am not against it. It only takes SOP, LORs and couple bucks.

Edited November 27, 2012 by plenum123

[ridofme]

Soapwater - I don't think you shouldn't apply, but that quant score is going to hurt you. If you look at the link below, only 6% of students accepted at WWS had quant scores between 144-151 (and 0% below that). So it's obviously possible, just not probable perhaps. Have you taken the test more than once? I only took it one time, but everyone I know who has taken it more than once see their scores rise. I think there's a steep learning curve, especially with the computer format. One admissions officer I spoke to said that he recommends everyone take the test twice for that very reason. Your GPA is fantastic (what I wouldn't do for it), and your verbal score is great, so if you have good work experience, raising your Q score would likely make you an absolutely top candidate.

Anyhow, I certainly have a number of weaknesses in my application, so I hope I'm not coming off judgmental or harsh.

http://wws.princeton.edu/gradviewbook/index.html#/16

[soaps]

Soapwater - I don't think you shouldn't apply, but that quant score is going to hurt you. If you look at the link below, only 6% of students accepted at WWS had quant scores between 144-151 (and 0% below that). So it's obviously possible, just not probable perhaps. Have you taken the test more than once? I only took it one time, but everyone I know who has taken it more than once see their scores rise. I think there's a steep learning curve, especially with the computer format. One admissions officer I spoke to said that he recommends everyone take the test twice for that very reason. Your GPA is fantastic (what I wouldn't do for it), and your verbal score is great, so if you have good work experience, raising your Q score would likely make you an absolutely top candidate.

Anyhow, I certainly have a number of weaknesses in my application, so I hope I'm not coming off judgmental or harsh.

http://wws.princeton.../index.html#/16

Thanks for the input. I know the odds are against me, but I'm used to that. I just didn't think I'd be put in a slush pile because of the quant. score. I wish I had similar stats for HKS since I wouldn't get into WWS anyway. The PDF you gave actually shows 19% in the 147-151 range, but it's definitely scary that I'm hovering right above that cut-off.

[plenum123]

soapwater,

Please note that MPA at WWS = MPP at Harvard so it's 6% not 19%. Again, this is the fact for particular year and WWS is the most competitive. And you will have a comfortable shot at GPPI. I expect that the application numbers for HKS will increase dramatically this year because there's only 1 main essay + reputation of the H.

In it, to win it....

Edited November 28, 2012 by plenum123

[eigenvector]

This thread is so informative ! Thanks all for the incredibly useful insights.

[soaps]

soapwater,

Please note that MPA at WWS = MPP at Harvard so it's 6% not 19%. Again, this is the fact for particular year and WWS is the most competitive. And you will have a comfortable shot at GPPI. I expect that the application numbers for HKS will increase dramatically this year because there's only 1 main essay + reputation of the H.

In it, to win it....

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Strange that the threshold is lower for Princeton's MPP, given that other schools seem to require more quant for their MPA programs. I'll be applying to GTown for the MSFS if I actually end up applying there. I'm really hoping Oxford likes me so I don't have to worry at all about my GRE score.