Accept an offer, then later withdraw?

[euges429]

I am wondering about your thoughts on accepting an offer, only to withdraw it later? Before you all gang up on me, here's my scenario.

I've been accepted to University A, with full funding. However, they have me a short deadline (next week), or else, if I past it, I am still admitted, but without funding. I am currently waitlisted at my top two universities, B and C. They will let me know if a spot opens up, whenever it does, up and until April 15th. I'm tempted to accept A's offer. And if B or C has a spot open, I withdraw A's offer.

I know, this isn't really nice, and I really don't want to do this to University A. It's just that they gave me a very short leash, but I'm still waiting to hear from all these other schools. All universities A, B and C are my top 3 choices, really, but A would be my #3 choice. Obviously, if B or C accepts me, that would be great.

What are your thoughts on this? I don't have a specific question, but feel free to post your experiences if you've done this before. If you still want to gang up on me, I guess you could do so. But it's not like I want to do this.

[nertperson]

I know a post-doc who did that and the university held a very long grudge against her. She was about to apply for a job at the university she had un-chosen years ago and was cautioned against it.

[euges429]

I know a post-doc who did that and the university held a very long grudge against her. She was about to apply for a job at the university she had un-chosen years ago and was cautioned against it.

I understand. But why she even think of applying for a job at the university she had un-chosen? There are tonnes of schools out there! Hmm...

But in any case, I know it's a bad thing to accept-then-withdraw. But I'm kinda forced into it, or else I loose all offers whatsoever.

[nertperson]

I guess she thought they were mature and reasonable enough to understand her situation. Unfortunately it seems academia (like everything else) is ruled by ugly politics.

[euges429]

I guess she thought they were mature and reasonable enough to understand her situation. Unfortunately it seems academia (like everything else) is ruled by ugly politics.

I actually had a prof at my undergrad who advised me AGAINST wanting to be a prof -- because of "university politics." It's everywhere...

[rising_star]

What about CGS?

[Minnesotan]

If they are part of the GSC, they cannot make you notify before April 15th. Either way, I would do what you need to do to cover your own butt -- the schools to which you're applying sure would, regardless the effect it had on you.

[euges429]

If they are part of the GSC, they cannot make you notify before April 15th. Either way, I would do what you need to do to cover your own butt -- the schools to which you're applying sure would, regardless the effect it had on you.

Yeah, this early school, University A, is Canadian. =) A good school, but they don't care about April 15th deadlines!

I should also add that Indiana University gave me an offer, with a deadline of March 28th. (This is not one of the schools I was talking about, since IU's not one of my top choices.) They said that after this deadline, I may lose funding, but would still be admitted. I just have to let them know by April 15th. (I've declined, btw.)

[Minnesotan]

I say screw them, if they're going to dick you around like that. That's completely unprofessional.

[tomsmith]

My situation is that I have an excellent offer from school A, but am waitlisted at a much better school B. The department chair informed me that I have a decent chance of being admitted based on his past experience, but that the offer will not come before April 15th. Obviously this puts me in a bind. I am happy to go to school A, but would obviously rather go to B. The differences between the schools could be huge career-wise--not to mention I am a much better fit at school B.

Obviously I can't just reject school A and hope for the best! Some of the comments on the results page seem to think withdrawing is some sort of huge offence. Does anyone know if this is generally true? I can see how it might be a problem for them, say, if I withdraw in June, but if I withdraw April 28th is it really that damaging to them? My understanding is that they still have some people on waitlists at this time.

Plus, I wonder if I should care how it effects them. Shouldn't I worry about what is best for me? Me not going to A is probably not going to have a lasting effect on their department, but me not going to B, may have a significant lasting effect on my career. Maybe I won't be accepted at B and this won't be a problem!

Also, does anyone else think these rules as they are set up are detrimental to students, but beneficial to departments?

Finally, though I don't have plans to do this, I am wondering if anyone has experience themselves or knows of anyone who has done a year in one program and then left for another. How do programs generally look at this?

[excel]

tomsmith, maybe u can call up the univ that has given u an offer, and frankly discuss the situation with them. If you have already received your official letter of admission & support in postal mail, they cant take that away from you. See if they let you accept their offer on the provision that you may withdraw it 2-3 days after April 15. One program that has given me an offer has explicitly urged me to contact them if replying by April 15 presents a problem. I shud think that they were referring to the kind of situation u r in.

euges, in ur place too, i ud call the canadian school and frankly discuss the matter with them. If u r transparent in ur dealings with the school, they probably wont hold any grudge against u. By the way, if what u said abt Indiana University's offer is true, then they unambiguously violated the resolution on April 15 deadline...the resolution refers to the financial offer, not just the admission. I hope someone exposes them or takes them to task.

[Minnesotan]

euges, in ur place too, i ud call the canadian school and frankly discuss the matter with them. If u r transparent in ur dealings with the school, they probably wont hold any grudge against u.

Is it really all that difficult to spell out the word, "you?"

This is a grad school forum, not the Orlando Bloom Fan Club chat room.

[excel]

Is it really all that difficult to spell out the word, "you?"

This is a grad school forum, not the Orlando Bloom Fan Club chat room.

Minnesotan, i do not know what ur problem is...i did not use any swear word, and i can see no reason for ur objection. Since u r a moderator, I will gladly stop posting if u so desire...especially, as i am only tring to help and have nothing to gain from this...however, i will not tolerate any nonsense from u or anyone else here.

[tomsmith]

Minn (sorry I didn't spell it out),

We are here trying to get information and advice. You really don't need to be so petty. Why don't you go back over and hang with the geeks over at English Lit. So if you don't mind, could we stay on topic?

[Ferrero]

FIGHT

[bgk]

Let's NOT have a fight -- Please keep on-topic. If we want to discuss the merits and demerits of "text speak", do so in the Lobby

[Minnesotan]

The discussion has been moved to the lobby: http://forum.thegradcafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13599

[wheee]

euges or tomsmith - did either of you end up calling the places that you've been accepted? i'm in a similar situation, where i'm waitlisted by my top school and was told that i should know hopefully a couple weeks after the april 15 deadline. i'm not sure what to do...

[tomsmith]

No, I haven't called them. Frankly, I don't know what to do. I think if I called them it would relieve a lot of stress on me. Atleast they could give me their take on the situation. But I just don't know. I guess I have a fear that it will just piss them off. Of course it shouldn't, it isn't personal and you would think they would understand the position applicants are in. However, you never know what someones personality, views, etc. are like untill you do it.

Please post back here and let me know how it went if you call. I'll do the same if I work up the nerve.

[santana]

You have absolutely right to do whatever you see fit for yourself.

If there is no legal obligation you do not need to adhere to any.

This mess is created by both applicants and universities. If there are no waiting lists we would not be there. Accept offer from A and if you get B or C then drop A. You are gambling with your life and career, they are gambling with ONLY ONE spot in their admission class. Your gamble is more risky and it is YOUR life. The US higher education is a place where honor in terms of admission procedure is irrelevant, you will not be recognized for decency, you would only gamble your future.

In other words, look for yourself ONLY!

"Atleast they could give me their take on the situation. "

Unlikely. They would most likely fool you around, it is the nature of business of higher education in the US, just like any other business. Unless you get it signed on the paper, all talk is cheap and irrelevant. "You are our top candidate on the waiti list," "we do not have clear decision on funds yet," blah-blah-blah. I heard it all and they are all most likely lies.

[Minnesotan]

You have absolutely right to do whatever you see fit for yourself.

If there is no legal obligation you do not need to adhere to any.

This mess is created by both applicants and universities. If there are no waiting lists we would not be there. Accept offer from A and if you get B or C then drop A. You are gambling with your life and career, they are gambling with ONLY ONE spot in their admission class. Your gamble is more risky and it is YOUR life. The US higher education is a place where honor in terms of admission procedure is irrelevant, you will not be recognized for decency, you would only gamble your future.

In other words, look for yourself ONLY!

"Atleast they could give me their take on the situation. "

Unlikely. They would most likely fool you around, it is the nature of business of higher education in the US, just like any other business. Unless you get it signed on the paper, all talk is cheap and irrelevant. "You are our top candidate on the waiti list," "we do not have clear decision on funds yet," blah-blah-blah. I heard it all and they are all most likely lies.

I'm not sure whether I agree or not, but I applaud your sticking to your guns, Santana. The "honor" or "reputation" argument certainly seems a little one-sided in this situation. The universities have all of the power, so they get to jerk you around as much as they like; if the grad students, however, want to do what's best for themselves, then they're obviously immoral and need to be blacklisted.

What say we begin a departmental blacklist, where we keep track of all of the times the adcoms jerk a candidate around, huh? I bet that would get their dander up!

[prat]

oh yes!

that would be lovely !

[Tritonetelephone]

You have absolutely right to do whatever you see fit for yourself.

If there is no legal obligation you do not need to adhere to any.

This mess is created by both applicants and universities. If there are no waiting lists we would not be there. Accept offer from A and if you get B or C then drop A. You are gambling with your life and career, they are gambling with ONLY ONE spot in their admission class. Your gamble is more risky and it is YOUR life. The US higher education is a place where honor in terms of admission procedure is irrelevant, you will not be recognized for decency, you would only gamble your future.

In other words, look for yourself ONLY!

"Atleast they could give me their take on the situation. "

Unlikely. They would most likely fool you around, it is the nature of business of higher education in the US, just like any other business. Unless you get it signed on the paper, all talk is cheap and irrelevant. "You are our top candidate on the waiti list," "we do not have clear decision on funds yet," blah-blah-blah. I heard it all and they are all most likely lies.

Please don't take this personally, Santana - I'm not just reacting to your comment, it just reminded me of some stuff I've run into lately. But the abandonment of ethics for self-interest is a big problem that I'm having with academia right now. An attitude that is selfish, inconsiderate, step-on-anyone-possible-to-succeed has never suited me. I know that graduate school is competitive, but survival is going to require some cooperation with others.

I think that accepting-then-withdrawing is unethical for a reason. The university needs to let in a certain number of grad students to stay financially operational, and replacing a student who they thought had already granted acceptance would be a huge hassle when they've already rejected those on the wait-list. Obviously, it's a huge struggle for us, too- I'm just trying to provide a little perspective. I would absolutely hate to be in the same situation as euges and tomsmith, but personally, rather than withdrawing immediately, I would rather accept, stay until completing the Master's, then re-apply for the PhD.

Of course, I'm open to what everyone else has to say. But is anyone else still trying to resist the kind of attitude that I mentioned? I can't be the only one who is not OK with totally losing my altruism and restricting my ethics only to what is legally obligated... am I?

[santana]

Nothing personal, no problem. I would say this - a lot of people like to give lessons on ethics. However when the real situation arises to behave "ethically" then they do not necessarily follow suit. You can see that in virtually every facet of life in the US. It is always easier to lecture others than to behave accordingly, it is also much cheaper. I am simply saying the way it is, not the way I would like OTHERS to behave.

When a school waitlist 3-4 times as many people as they would admit just to throw a bone to a very few in the end, then there is no ethics to hold on to. It is obvious most programs in the US treat applicants like numbers and meat. To behave with "honor" in that kind of situation is to be foolish. Some of people here applying belong to the elite (they can afford to wait, pay, and/or delay), some do not.

Institutions of higher learning in the US work like corporate entities. There is no ethics, only rules and sanctions. There is always competetion for money, political considerations, and personal interests. The illusion that they somehow exist for a greater good is just that - illusion. There are probably more selfrighteous "socialist" tendencies among some segments of faculty but that is easily overruled by selfinterests and greed/vanity. I worked in higher education for close to a decade (including some graduate committees) and I have very little illusions left myself.

[Minnesotan]

Just to add to this line of thought, isn't it unethical to attempt to circumvent the CGS agreement by instituting a second deadline for funding?

I don't just refer to the OP, to whom this might not apply -- I have seen a lot of questions about this second "funding deadline," which is artificially inserted ahead of the acceptance deadline.