Ph.D. Backup Schools

[JCP82]

Almost all of the Ph.D. programs I plan to apply to are in the top 10 in the field, and those that aren't are in the top 20. I have found one school whose program I like, but it is not ranked anywhere near the top. Based on the admissions statistics listed on their website, I am almost sure I could get in (barring any "fit" problems, but there are 3 professors in the department doing research similar to what I want to do, so I don't think that will be an issue).

I am somewhat confident that I will be able to get into at least one of the top tier programs I am applying to, but there's also a pretty decent chance I won't get into any of them.

Is it a good idea to apply to at least one "backup" school for Ph.D. programs? Or given the absolutely brutal job market for Ph.D.s, especially since I am going into a fairly narrow field (education policy), would going to a low-ranked program not be worth considering?

Thanks!

Edited November 5, 2010 by JCP82

[You!Machine.]

I've had similar concerns in a different field and one professor in particular who tried to convince me of applying to a safety school in addition to the 12 top-tier programs I'm applying to. I really respect him, but I think the safety school move is somewhat outdated. Sure, if you are someone whose career goal is just to be in the field regardless of where you end up, then by all means, apply to a safety school. For me, I want a degree that will not only be respected in the United States and give me a leg up on the people vying for top jobs at top programs, but also will give me the freedom to live in Europe and open doors purely through name recognition (of the school, that is). So as far as I am concerned, the only place I am willing to do my PhD is at one of these top programs. If I get 12 rejections this year, then I take what I have and apply again next year. And, if after all of that, it doesn't happen, then I'll re-evaluate on. It shouldn't be taken as a sign of cockiness or a lack of passion for my work, it's just the reality of the market situation today and I think if you've decided on a strategy that you're happy with, screw what anyone else says.

[fuzzylogician]

It's really very simple: would you go to this school if it turned out to be the only one that accepted you this application cycle? If the answer is yes, then you should apply there. If not, then there's no point in investing the time and money in that application.

It's the same question that you should be asking yourself about every school that you are considering, regardless of ranking.

For each school you are considering, you should learn about not only current research options but also future placement options (based on the success of recent graduates). Based on the program's success in recent years, you should be able to tell if you'll get a useful education there.

Edited November 6, 2010 by fuzzylogician

[natsteel]

Once again, I agree with fuzzylogician. I am sure we are all experiencing something like this. One of my mentors is also a highly respected graduate advisor but the program at my undergrad institution is not highly regarded (read: highly ranked). This mentor told me when I was a junior that they would take me on as a graduate student... so I always considered it as a safety, but in the last few weeks I've wondered if I should even apply there since out of 10 schools it would be my 10th choice. But I think I am going to do it anyway...

The ranking of the school alone will not get you a job. I would think that someone who has done extraordinary work at a Top 50 school is probably just as likely to get a job as someone who did okay at a Top 10 or Top 20 school.

[Sparky]

One of my mentors is also a highly respected graduate advisor but the program at my undergrad institution is not highly regarded (read: highly ranked). This mentor told me when I was a junior that they would take me on as a graduate student... so I always considered it as a safety, but in the last few weeks I've wondered if I should even apply there since out of 10 schools it would be my 10th choice. But I think I am going to do it anyway...

Don't.

Unless you are coming out of the top program in your field, getting your BA (B*), MA, and PhD from the same department will make getting a job much harder. Job search committees tend to view such an application with the question, "But can this person succeed in a different environment?" in the front of their minds.

Of course there are always stories of the person who beat the system, but do you really want to make crappy odds even crappier for yourself?

[adaptations]

The advice to consider whether you would rather go to the "safety" school versus nowhere, or doing something else entirely is a good way to think about it. If you were only admitted to the safety and you would still want to enroll, then go ahead and apply there. Nobody is disputing that going to a top ranked school is beneficial, but that doesn't mean you can't succeed going to a lower ranked school - particularly if you have good faculty to work with and they have a proven record for securing good/acceptable job placement (I think this second point is very important).

[JCP82]

The advice to consider whether you would rather go to the "safety" school versus nowhere, or doing something else entirely is a good way to think about it.

That's exactly how I am thinking about this question, and I'm just not sure of the answer. I've now found two programs that meet all the criteria of what I am looking for in a Ph.D. program - program structure, type of research being done by the professors, in locations where I want to live, etc - except that they're not renowned programs. One of them lists some sample positions taken by graduates of the program, and none of them are the types of positions I am interested in (though it does not state whether the recipients of the positions were M.A. or Ph.D. students). The other school does not list anything like that on the website, so I will need to contact the program to find out.

The other problem is that if I don't get into any Ph.D. programs, or only get into ones that won't really allow me to pursue a career in research, I'm not sure what else I want to do with my life! My current job is great, but it's not something you can really make a career out of. The other general field for which I am qualified, based on my experience and education, is something I have become somewhat disgusted with and have no desire to work in. I would really like a Ph.D., not only because I want to pursue a career in research, but because I am really really interested in this field, and as the first person in my family to graduate from college, just having one would mean a great deal to me. But I'm just not sure it is worth 4-6 years of time and lost income if I'm unlikely to be able to get the kind of job I want afterward.

About half the schools I plan to apply to (including one of the two "backup" schools) waive my application fee because I am a Teach For America alum, so the application fee for the other "backup" isn't a big deal. All I would really be losing out on by applying is the time it takes to put the application together. Having not applied before, I'm unsure of how much time, on average, it takes to apply to an additional school given that you are already applying to several schools. I know I will need to tweak the statement of purpose some. Does anybody know the approximate amount of time it takes to complete an additional application?

Edited November 7, 2010 by JCP82

[adaptations]

The other problem is that if I don't get into any Ph.D. programs, or only get into ones that won't really allow me to pursue a career in research, I'm not sure what else I want to do with my life! My current job is great, but it's not something you can really make a career out of. The other general field for which I am qualified, based on my experience and education, is something I have become somewhat disgusted with and have no desire to work in. I would really like a Ph.D., not only because I want to pursue a career in research, but because I am really really interested in this field, and as the first person in my family to graduate from college, just having one would mean a great deal to me. But I'm just not sure it is worth 4-6 years of time and lost income if I'm unlikely to be able to get the kind of job I want afterward.

... Does anybody know the approximate amount of time it takes to complete an additional application?

First, I will say that it appears you are being deliberate and thinking about everything in a proper context. My advice is that a PhD is not something you do because you don't know what else to do with your life. You should feel very confident that you want to pursue the PhD, which it sounds like you are, but also that you want to pursue it at the school you end up choosing (or that chooses you). If it appears that a program will not provide the training and credentials needed to achieve your long term goals, then it is probably not worth attending, and hence not worth applying. Of course, there may be a persistent degree of uncertainty on this point, in which case you could apply, and if it is your only option, then you can seriously consider the value of attending after a visit and weighing all outside options.

To your second question of how much time it takes for an additional application - I think it varies greatly. If you are "just" tweaking your SOP and entering the application information you could do it in a couple hours. On the other hand, if you are researching faculty, reading some of their articles, etc. to gauge fit and strengthen your SOP and application, it could take many more hours. I have already researched my schools fairly extensively, but I still figure it takes another 5-8 hours to fully revise my SOP and feel that the application is as strong as possible.

That's my two cents. Good luck.

[starmaker]

It sounds like you are interested in these "backup" programs for their own sake, but worried that you won't be able to get a job later if you attend them.

If I were you, I would contact these two programs and ask about their job placement rates. If the programs are in departments that are part of the NRC study (e.g. public policy), you might even be able to get those numbers from the web.

[Arcadian]

That's exactly how I am thinking about this question, and I'm just not sure of the answer. I've now found two programs that meet all the criteria of what I am looking for in a Ph.D. program - program structure, type of research being done by the professors, in locations where I want to live, etc - except that they're not renowned programs. One of them lists some sample positions taken by graduates of the program, and none of them are the types of positions I am interested in (though it does not state whether the recipients of the positions were M.A. or Ph.D. students). The other school does not list anything like that on the website, so I will need to contact the program to find out.

The other problem is that if I don't get into any Ph.D. programs, or only get into ones that won't really allow me to pursue a career in research, I'm not sure what else I want to do with my life! My current job is great, but it's not something you can really make a career out of. The other general field for which I am qualified, based on my experience and education, is something I have become somewhat disgusted with and have no desire to work in. I would really like a Ph.D., not only because I want to pursue a career in research, but because I am really really interested in this field, and as the first person in my family to graduate from college, just having one would mean a great deal to me. But I'm just not sure it is worth 4-6 years of time and lost income if I'm unlikely to be able to get the kind of job I want afterward.

About half the schools I plan to apply to (including one of the two "backup" schools) waive my application fee because I am a Teach For America alum, so the application fee for the other "backup" isn't a big deal. All I would really be losing out on by applying is the time it takes to put the application together. Having not applied before, I'm unsure of how much time, on average, it takes to apply to an additional school given that you are already applying to several schools. I know I will need to tweak the statement of purpose some. Does anybody know the approximate amount of time it takes to complete an additional application?

You should definitely apply to those two programs. You can never be certain that you'll get "the kind of job you want" later. This is all very abstract. If the programs are a good fit for you, then go ahead and apply. You may be overthinking it a bit (which is understandable).

[SamiurRahman]

I'm applying to a ton of schools, and I think I would describe some of them as backup, but mostly I'm applying to all the schools that I've figured has a great Wireless Communications research program. Now, some of these schools are naturally easier to get into, and hence can be seen as "backups," but I'm applying straight out Undergrad, and applying to a limited number of jobs as backup to graduate school, and I think I would take a funded graduate school offer from any of these "backups" ahead of a job. Unless of course, I somehow manage to land a Google job ;P.

[fbh]

It's pretty simple in my opinion -- don't apply to a program that you wouldn't attend if it's the only one you're accepted to.

[JCP82]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. The problem has been solved for one of the two "backup" schools I am looking at. I contacted the department chair to ask about employment of their Ph.D. recipients, since it wasn't listed on the website, and he provided me a very impressive list of recent jobs. I will definitely be applying to that program.

The other school is still a problem though. As previously mentioned, everything I know about the program seems to be a good fit for me, and I would have absolutely no problem attending that school if it were the only one I got into, except that the list of jobs taken by their recent graduates posted on their website is pretty sad.

You should definitely apply to those two programs. You can never be certain that you'll get "the kind of job you want" later.

True, but what about the opposite? Can you be certain that you WON'T get "the kind of job you want" later if a program has a history of placing students only in jobs you're not interested in?

Edited November 15, 2010 by JCP82

[Sparky]

True, but what about the opposite? Can you be certain that you WON'T get "the kind of job you want" later if a program has a history of placing students only in jobs you're not interested in?

I have hazel eyes. I have always had hazel eyes. Who knows? I might wake up one morning and they could have spontaneously turned bright orange overnight!

...But it would be a really crappy thing on which to base my future happiness and ability to afford food.

Seriously, though, has no professor had this talk with you yet?

Edited November 16, 2010 by Sparky

[starmaker]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. The problem has been solved for one of the two "backup" schools I am looking at. I contacted the department chair to ask about employment of their Ph.D. recipients, since it wasn't listed on the website, and he provided me a very impressive list of recent jobs. I will definitely be applying to that program.

This is not how you want to do it.

You don't want to know that there exist people who attended this program and ended up with shiny jobs. Well, you do, but that's not the main concern here. You want to know how most people are doing, because unless you have a very good reason to believe that you are unusual, you should never assume that you will be the great shining exception of the department. If the top 5% of the recent graduates end up with absolutely amazing jobs, the next 15% end up with decent jobs, the next 20% end up wtih crappy jobs, and the remaining 60% end up with no job, you probably don't want to attend that program, no matter how fantastic the jobs of that top 5% are.

So, what you want to know are things like:

- What percentage of graduates have jobs lined up upon graduation?

- What percentage of those jobs are in academia? (Even if you don't want to go into academia, this can give you an idea of where the department's focus is.)

- What percentage of graduates have jobs within a year of graduation?

- What percentage of graduates end up in which sectors, industries, or companies?

If all those check out, then you can look at the shiny jobs that the stars get (it might also be worth it to find out what their credentials were when they got those jobs, so that you have something to aim for). But any department that's just giving you anecdotes of the greatest recent success stories is misleading you (whether intentionally or not).