GRE scores say "percentile below"

[GK Chesterton]

This is a bizarre and likely dumb question, but upon consulting my GRE scores, I found that it gives me the percentile "below" - when an application asks me for my actual percentile, do I add one to the number I see?

Example: I have a 740 Quant, and it says % Below: 80. Does this mean I'm in the 81st percentile? To further complicate things - what if someone gets "% Below: 99"; would that imply that one is in the 100th percentile / is that theoretically even possible? Presumably it must come up often, because basically every lit score from 800 to 730 is showing % below as 99.

Edited November 13, 2010 by GK Chesterton

[hotmessexpress]

I think you're misunderstanding how the percentiles work. When I was in high school, I got an 800 on the SAT II in Spanish and on the score report it showed up as "percentile below: 94" and I was a little puzzled. Then I realized that it must mean a decent handful of people (6% of test takers) were getting perfect scores while 94% of test takers scored below. If it says "percentile below: 80" for your Math score, it means 80% of test takers scored below your score (720). This does not mean you're in the 81st percentile. When it says 99% below, it means 99% of test takers scored below that particular score. It's theoretically impossible to be in the 100th percentile, because even if one single person got an 800 and everyone else scored below, that would mean 99% scored below her/him (and in practice, there's always more than a single 800). Moreover, no one can score 801 while everyone else scores 800 or less (the only way someone could be at the "100th percentile"), because obviously one can't go beyond the max score. The fact that a range of scores is designated "below 99%" means that the test is difficult enough such that 99% of test takers don't score anywhere near the bottom of that range. Rather than break up the scores into statistically insignificant cuts: i.e. 99.05%, 99.34%, 99.61%, 99.83%, etc., ETS just lumps up all those scores under 99%. Based on the percentiles for the Math and Verbal sections of the GRE general test, one can infer that more people get perfect 800s on Math than on Verbal. All of this is to say: when you report, just put exactly what your score report says. Adding even 1% to it is actually making it seem like you did better than you actually did because 1% represents who knows how many hundred or thousands of test takers, all of whom you would be claiming to have done better than, when they actually did better than you. Admittedly, I'm not sure what the size of the overall test taker pool is, but I imagine it's quite large, hence my uncertainty about whether you would be unknowingly cheating out hundreds or thousands of people. My guess would be the latter.

[GK Chesterton]

Wow. Preliminary suggestion might be a reduction in caffeine intake, and although I'm trying hard to resist the urge, your other comment on being the best at everything including gardening in your HYP Ivy triangle makes me dislike you and read (misplaced) smugness into your comment.

To get to your answer: I can't actually find that you provided any sort of a claim or source for what a percentile is, and as such, I'm having a hard time following your line of reasoning which suggests that I'm "unknowingly cheating out hundreds or thousands of people". I did my own research, and it turns out that there isn't a solid definition of a percentile - in fact, the Merriam-Webster definition contradicts the one you appear to be reasoning with.

: a value on a scale of 100 that indicates the percent of a distribution that is equal to or below it <a score in the 95thpercentile>

There is no universally accepted definition of a percentile. Using the 65th percentile as an example, the 65th percentile can be defined as the lowest score that is greater than 65% of the scores. This is the way we defined it above and we will call this "Definition 1". The 65th percentile can also be defined as the smallest score that is greater than or equal to 65% of the scores. This we will call "Definition 2"

http://regentsprep.org/REgents/math/ALGEBRA/AD6/quartiles.htm

http://cnx.org/content/m10805/latest/

Working with definition 2, the 100th percentile would in fact be an 800 - the smallest score greater than or equal to 100% of all other scores. The GRE also makes no definitive claims on the score sheet about what a percentile is, because they list only "% Below", which obviously doesn't resolve the issue of what a percentile is..

[hotmessexpress]

I apologize if you were offended by my explanation. I assure you, I didn't intend any ill will. However, since you're bringing up irrelevant external posts of mine to color this discussion, I should point out that I simply cannot apologize for your inferiority complex; that's your own problem. (The previous sentence constitutes the only time I have ever been and will ever be "smug" to you...)

Back to the question at hand: no one could ever honestly report a "100 percentile" on a grad school application because as I explained before, even if one person got a perfect score and no one else did, the "percent below" is the information provided on their score report (i.e. "99%"). This holds true for all other reported "percent-below" figures. You can't just add 1% for padding (I'm sure it's not your intention but that's what it amounts to, and it's dishonest). Just report exactly what it says on your score report. Applications are usually asking for the "percent below" number that's on your official report (even if it says "percentile"), and cannot realistically expect you to manipulate that data to give them a true "percentile," which I agree with you, is vague. In fact, I'll concede that both of us have been conflating the concept of a "percentile" with the notion of "percent below" which ETS uses in its reports. (I sometimes careless referred to "percent below" as "percentile" in my last post as shorthand) Indeed, it would seem that many applications conflate the two, insofar as they list "percentiles" when they almost always mean "percent below" i.e. "please report the same number you see on your official ETS score report." Besides, they will eventually see your official score report and the discrepancy between your self-report and the real thing might raise more than one eyebrow (even if it's just by 1%).

Just report the same number ETS gave you. I'm sure most people on this site would agree that it's the correct thing to do and most people have probably done just that. I haven't taken the GRE yet, but it's what I intend to do, myself. And look, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to be all antagonistic. It's clear what you think of Ivy League-educated people. I can't help that. And I'm sorry if I only bolstered your misconceptions about Ivy League folks. From now on, let's be civil to one another. I hope you come out of this realizing that all along I was just trying to answer your question and that perhaps I got carried away rhetorically, but that I didn't intend to be mean. (I only got "mean" in this post when you resorted to painting my character as if you actually knew who I was) No hard feelings, I hope.

If anyone else has remarks about this percentiles business, I'm sure the OP would appreciate your input.

[GK Chesterton]

I apologize if you were offended by my explanation. I assure you, I didn't intend any ill will. However, since you're bringing up irrelevant external posts of mine to color this discussion, I should point out that I simply cannot apologize for your inferiority complex; that's your own problem. (The previous sentence constitutes the only time I have ever been and will ever be "smug" to you...)

To wit:

Warning: The following is slightly sesquipedalian and may contain trace amounts of grandiloquence. It's definitely not my intention to suddenly sour this post; I'm only providing the following background info to contextualize my situation. Consider yourself warned. I graduated summa cum laude from an Ivy in the "HYP trinity" with the same major as what I'm hoping to study in grad school. My thesis, which I will be using for my writing sample, received accolades in my department. My adviser and other professors, well-known scholars with friends at the schools on my list, will be writing coruscating letters of recommendation to support my applications. Furthermore, my alma mater is on my list of grad schools partly because it's one of the top programs in my field, and my professors have made it abundantly clear that they'd be delighted to have me back. They're very confident in me and have reassured me that I'll get into most if not all of the schools on my list. The friend I mentioned earlier who was accepted practically everywhere he applied had a similar background as mine.

I'm the one with the inferiority complex?

Back to the question at hand: no one could ever honestly report a "100 percentile" on a grad school application because as I explained before, even if one person got a perfect score and no one else did, the "percent below" is the information provided on their score report (i.e. "99%").

I... what... Did you even read what I wrote in the second post? If you get the highest score in one system, you're the 99th percentile - in the other, you're the 100th percentile. Both systems allow you to be the 0th percentile. It's fundamentally unclear.

This holds true for all other reported "percent-below" figures. You can't just add 1% for padding (I'm sure it's not your intention but that's what it amounts to, and it's dishonest). Just report exactly what it says on your score report. Applications are usually asking for the "percent below" number that's on your official report (even if it says "percentile")

The level of cognitive dissonance ... breath-taking. It's not padding; it's a question about the fundamental nature of the relationship between percent below and the meaning of percentile. By what standard have you determined that applications are asking for for the percent below, when they very clearly state that they're asking for the percentile?

In fact, I'll concede that both of us have been conflating the concept of a "percentile" with the notion of "percent below" which ETS uses in its reports. (I sometimes careless referred to "percent below" as "percentile" in my last post as shorthand)

That's extremely generous of you, but I never conflated the two concepts - my question was actually an attempt to distinguish them. You're the one that's conflating them, and that's why it's not at all helpful.

Indeed, it would seem that many applications conflate the two, insofar as they list "percentiles" when they almost always mean "percent below" i.e. "please report the same number you see on your official ETS score report." Besides, they will eventually see your official score report and the discrepancy between your self-report and the real thing might raise more than one eyebrow (even if it's just by 1%).

Not if the number they're looking for is the definition of the percentile that would potentially make it higher, would it? Simple example: if 100 people take a test, and 98 of them score below person X, person X is conceivably in either the 98th, 99th, or 100th percentile, depending on the definition of percentile used. If persons x and y receive the same score, they're both in the 100th percentile or the 99th percentile, depending on the definition of percentile used. If person x scores worse than person y, person x is either in the 98th or the 99th percentile, depending on the formula used. Clear?

Just report the same number ETS gave you. I'm sure most people on this site would agree that it's the correct thing to do and most people have probably done just that. I haven't taken the GRE yet, but it's what I intend to do, myself. And look, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to be all antagonistic. It's clear what you think of Ivy League-educated people. I can't help that. And I'm sorry if I only bolstered your misconceptions about Ivy League folks.

You know that thing that people resent you for doing? You're doing it right here. I have nothing against "Ivy League-educated people", nor do I have any particular misconceptions for you to bolster. I think you seem like an unpleasant individual lacking self-awareness. I wouldn't dream of trying to presume that about people who attend Ivy league schools in general. How do you know I didn't attend one? Because I failed to mention my "coruscating" letters of recommendation?

From now on, let's be civil to one another. I hope you come out of this realizing that all along I was just trying to answer your question and that perhaps I got carried away rhetorically, but that I didn't intend to be mean. (I only got "mean" in this post when you resorted to painting my character as if you actually knew who I was) No hard feelings, I hope.

You "answered" my question by implying that I was trying to cheat my way into a higher score, without even realizing the basis for the question itself and operating from the presumption that you needed to explain to me how percentiles worked, without understanding yourself.

If anyone else has remarks about this percentiles business, I'm sure the OP would appreciate your input.

Can the Subaltern speak?

[hotmessexpress]

I said I was sorry. Can we please just put this behind us and wait for others to offer their advice to you about your question? I stand behind my view. That's how I'll be reporting on my applications. Perhaps others can enlighten us as to how they have or intend to go about reporting their information.

GK Chesterton, you're entitled to your views. If my words in any way hurt you, please accept my sincerest apology. I mean it. Let's put this behind us. None of this would keep me from buying you a beer and enjoying your company if we should, perchance find ourselves at the same university. I hope you can find it in yourself to forgive me and say the same.

[laurend]

I listed the percentile as it appeared on my score report. I assume schools want it to be objective and to make sure everyone reports in the same way (ie based on what ets tells us).

[JoeySsance]

I'm with laurend and hotmessexpress. I also intend to report it the way it appears on the official ETS document.

[ScreamingHairyArmadillo]

I guarantee it is not a trick question when asked what percentile your scores are. Report what is on your score document.

[GK Chesterton]

I guarantee it is not a trick question when asked what percentile your scores are. Report what is on your score document.

Sigh. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong portion of my information, but my point is that the percentile itself isn't listed on the document that I have from ETS - it simply says "% Below". Are you all assuming that this is the percentile, or is the actual percentile listed somewhere else?

[anonacademic]

These sorts of questions make me very glad not to be in a mathematical field.

I guarantee it is not a trick question when asked what percentile your scores are. Report what is on your score document.

That said, I'll second what SHA said here (and the others of the same opinion) - whatever the crazy wording may be, what you should put is what is on your report card. You have your score in one box and the next should have the percentile score - that's it. It's what everyone puts, and it may raise an eyebrow with admissions (if they notice something as small as a single percentage point!) (but not worth the risk, in my opinion!)

[GK Chesterton]

OK, I'll go with the number from the "% Below box" - but what if we humanities majors have been cheating ourselves out of (as hotmess points out) hundreds or potentially thousands of places in the ranking by not understanding the relationship between % below and percentile?

[Nessie]

I'm fairly sure that in the case of the GRE the terms 'percentile' and 'percent below' are used interchangeably. I'd just put down whatever numbers you got from the ETS.

[hotmessexpress]

OK, I'll go with the number from the "% Below box" - but what if we humanities majors have been cheating ourselves out of (as hotmess points out) hundreds or potentially thousands of places in the ranking by not understanding the relationship between % below and percentile?

Thanks for accepting my apology.

That's not what I said, but again, you're quoting me out of context (what else is new?). What I said the last time was that if you add 1% to what it says on the official ETS report, then you would be misrepresenting your information. As trivial as 1% sounds, it does constitute a fair number of test takers you would be claiming to have scored above when, as I said before, they actually scored above you.

It might hurt your pride to admit this, but I've been right all along, a fact corroborated by others who interpret this situation the same way I have. I'm not the only one who believes your actions might cause admissions to look at your application with distrust.

[waddle]

OK, I'll go with the number from the "% Below box" - but what if we humanities majors have been cheating ourselves out of (as hotmess points out) hundreds or potentially thousands of places in the ranking by not understanding the relationship between % below and percentile?

In case you haven't found the official interpretation yet, it's here: http://www.ets.org/gre/subject/scores/understand. TL,DR: "Percentile ranks indicate the percentage of examinees who scored below your score and may differ between testing years as annual updating occurs."

[GK Chesterton]

Thanks for accepting my apology.

That's not what I said, but again, you're quoting me out of context (what else is new?). What I said the last time was that if you add 1% to what it says on the official ETS report, then you would be misrepresenting your information. As trivial as 1% sounds, it does constitute a fair number of test takers you would be claiming to have scored above when, as I said before, they actually scored above you.

It might hurt your pride to admit this, but I've been right all along, a fact corroborated by others who interpret this situation the same way I have. I'm not the only one who believes your actions might cause admissions to look at your application with distrust.

Sigh. You still don't get it - my implication was that the ambiguous relationship between % below and percentile meant that those who put the % below number, instead of trying to determine the actual percentile, could potentially be understating their case. Although I meant it tongue in cheek, this is the necessary implication of your own statement. If overstating your case makes you look better, then understating would make you look worse, no?

I really feel as if you still haven't grasped my whole point here - I'm not suggesting that you just add 1 to your score, I'm trying to figure out which of the two potential ways of calculating a percentile they're using. Further, you still haven't gotten it: if you receive a score that says % below: 99 and write 100th percentile, you are not necessarily claiming that you scored better than people who scored above you. This is easily demonstrable. If I score an 800 in Lit, and get % below: 99, then by one standard of calculating percentile, I have scored in the 99th percentile. By another, I have scored in the 100% percentile. By no means would I "be claiming to have scored above [test takers] when...they have actually scored above [me]," because it's actually impossible for them to have scored above that 800. Clear?

Edit: Did you just go through and red all my posts? Catty. Roowr.

Waddle - thanks. That clears it up definitively.

Edited November 13, 2010 by GK Chesterton

[hotmessexpress]

If I score an 800 in Lit, and get % below: 99, then by one standard of calculating percentile, I have scored in the 99th percentile. By another, I have scored in the 100% percentile. By no means would I "be claiming to have scored above [test takers] when...they have actually scored above [me]," because it's actually impossible for them to have scored above that 800. Clear?

Actually, if you do that, but all of the other 800 scorers report their official ETS percentiles, you still would be misrepresenting your score relative to all of them. Anyway you slice it, you're still doing something unethical.

If it makes you happy, why don't you report your scores the way you see fit with a footnote citing the dictionary's definition of a percentile?

And no, I wouldn't resort to such a thing (i.e. reddening your posts). Did it not once cross your mind that there are other members on this site aside from the two of us? I've tried apologizing so that we can be civil and stop hogging up forum space with this pointless argument.

Just report exactly what your ETS score report says. Case closed.

[JoeySsance]

GK Chesterton, can you please just drop it already? Several of us have given you our opinions. Hotmessexpress was right. Waddle's citation is basically common knowledge and its what hotmessexpress and everyone else here has been trying to convey to you. Bitter posters like you seriously detract from the pleasantness of the Grad Café community. Can't we all just get along?

Edit: I hadn't seen the post before mine. I agree with hotmessexpress about this case being closed. Let's move on with our lives.

Edited November 13, 2010 by JoeySsance