Literacy and Grad Students

[Minnesotan]

So that I don't continue to derail the conversation elsewhere, I moved my reply here:

Minnesotan, i do not know what ur problem is

I spelled it out (pun intended) quite clearly above. Anyway, my statement was merely a personal plea on behalf of literacy in a place where highly educated people come to discuss matters important to their early careers. The anti-intellectual response I received is rather ironic, but like BGK said, there's no need for an argument, although a discussion might be helpful. I made my request (as an educated human being, not in any official capacity as a moderator), and you responded. While I'd rather you swore than wrote in idiotspeak, that's your call.

I'm sorry I sidetracked us. My only defense is that texting like a twelve year old girl seems completely inappropriate in this venue. I'm not sure why that would be difficult to imagine -- this is a graduate school forum, not the Hello Kitty Adventures website.

[excel]

I consider a "discussion" initiated by your insulting my method of writing prior to any conclusion is reached and calling my reply "anti-intellectual" not a discussion at all; I find your posts to be decidedly offensive. Therefore, I find it below my dignity to discuss this matter (or indeed any matter) with you. I should further note that this issue of texting is a trivial matter to me, and I would prefer to spend the time that I do on this forum on matters of significant content.

"While I'd rather you swore than wrote in idiotspeak, that's your call." Exactly. It is my call. End of story.

[Minnesotan]

I find it below my dignity to discuss this matter

Oh, the irony.

[bgk]

Come on guys - let's get back on topic and discuss the merits of 'text speak'.

I find it a little vulgar to look at, but that's not an indictment on those that use it. Being a native British English speaker, I also find many so-called Americanisms lazy.

[luvalicious]

I don't use text speak, myself, but then again I don't "text." Truthfully, whenever I see that type of writing, my brain just shuts off. I'm not presuming that the writer is stupid; I just have a hard time taking it seriously.

[Minnesotan]

Nobody should say rumbustious.

[pointedears]

As long as I can understand what the person is trying to say, I am cool with it.

And really, an intellectually done snark doesn't make it a discussion. It still falls in the wanking spectrum. (there - two words that can be considered as 'chatspeak'/slang)

[lalala1]

i've got to agree with excel here... you did seem rather offensive and condescending. this is an open forum where people come to exchange questions and ideas... if the "u"s and "ur"s bother you so much, then don't read them.

[pointedears]

i've got to agree with excel here... you did seem rather offensive and condescending. this is an open forum where people come to exchange questions and ideas... if the "u"s and "ur"s bother you so much, then don't read them.

Oh they're just trying to be funny. Did you trade your sense of humor for offers of admission?

[Minnesotan]

Oh they're just trying to be funny. Did you trade your sense of humor for offers of admission?

I thought my Hello Kitty reference would have made this absolutely clear. Ah, well.

[pointedears]

It's sad when I see people getting their kicks by being bitter on the internet.

[Minnesotan]

It's sadder when people have to be humorless asses to make themselves feel superior.

Not that I'm referring to anyone in particular, of course. =)

[pointedears]

People are generally braver on the internet. Being anonymous does wonderful things to egos. Hence, the name calling etc. Only, it is not exactly funny when nobody else laughs.

[Minnesotan]

I bet you're a ton of fun in seminar.

That's okay, though. It's always the people like you who leave after their first year, and go brood for a living at the trendy coffee shops, downtown. Make sure you hold up that copy of Kafka high enough for the chicks to see. They just love the intense, angst-ridden grad school dropout types. lol

[pointedears]

lol, I have never seen a mod getting provoked this easily. And I wasn't even trying to troll! Really, you need professional help if you can wish such horrible things on someone based on the fact that they disagree on something as simple as language used in an online forum.

[historygirl]

Honestly, I can't stand the text speak. I agree that it (however unfairly) implies the writer is less-than-literate. Think back to your teachers - the ones that told you that proper spelling and grammar were necessary to make people take you seriously. It's the same thing.

If you want people to read what you write and take you seriously, it's best not to use the text speak. Some will read, and some won't, but I would think the aim is to have everyone in the thread read it. Otherwise, you would just use a PM. It has nothing to do with being stuffy or otherwise; it's simply a desire for clear communication and literacy.

[excel]

Honestly, I can't stand the text speak. I agree that it (however unfairly) implies the writer is less-than-literate. Think back to your teachers - the ones that told you that proper spelling and grammar were necessary to make people take you seriously. It's the same thing.

If you want people to read what you write and take you seriously, it's best not to use the text speak. Some will read, and some won't, but I would think the aim is to have everyone in the thread read it. Otherwise, you would just use a PM. It has nothing to do with being stuffy or otherwise; it's simply a desire for clear communication and literacy.

I will respond to you because you, unlike Minnesotan, have tried to present a reason and in a civil manner.

First of all, there is much debate among literacy scholars on whether proper spelling and many grammatical rules are worth any real value. I do not remember the details of the debate; I took my courses on literacy some time back . You will have to look up the references yourself if you want to, but this debate does exist.

Second, many (including myself) do not respect people who make a fuss of such trivial matters, instead of focussing on the content. We may or may not like textspeak personally, but most of us would certainly think lowly of the people who insult the writer. For evidence of this, you dont have to look any further than the reaction to Minnesotan's offensive comment in this thread and in the original thread.

Third, the context of the textspeak and the extent of its use are important too. Be assured that I did not use textspeak in any of my publications! However, when the context is providing helpful information in a free forum for which the writer expects no personal benefit, then it is absolutely the writer's prerogative to decide on whether to use textspeak or not. A reader may at best politely request the writer not to do so, but it is the writer's call. In general, it is presumptuous and arrogant to demand that other people do things according to your personal biases. Furthermore, If anyone has a problem understanding simple things like "u" used instead of "you", then it is his/her problem and it does not reflect well on that person's intelligence either. If s/he has a problem understanding full-blown textspeak, that may be a different matter.

[excel]

@historygirl, since you brought up the matter of spelling, here's something for you:

"i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at

Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a

wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be

in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed

it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed

ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and

I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!"

[christina_bme]

I think that native English speakers also need to be sensitive to the fact that we have a lot of international students on this board. It seems to me that a lot of these students are sincere and really want information about American grad programs that they can't get in their native countries. I hope that none of them would be dissuaded from posting because their English grammar and spelling is less than perfect.

Do I find the text-speak and excessive use of "u" annoying? Yeah, but not enough to get my panties in a bunch over it. And I'm a lot more understanding of it if it's coming from someone for whom English is not a first language.

[historygirl]

I think you miss the point when you say that if a person cannot understand textspeak, it's their problem. That's certainly not the issue. The issue is that once one embarks on the academic path, one should make a concerted effort to speak with, at the very least, proper grammar and spelling. Certainly there will be mistakes. However, textspeak isn't a mistake; it is a choice.

Minnesotan's point about the venue, however you may feel it was presented, is also fundamental. This is a forum for grad students. Grad students are, by definition, engaging in pursuit of academia. As such, the people who post here should use proper grammar and spelling and avoid textspeak. Now, if you want to use textspeak in another venue, such as (to use Minnesotan's example) the Orlando Bloom Fan Forum, or the SciFi Channel's forum, or your own blog, or MySpace, or whatever, cool. But using nonstandard English in a forum for academics is not appropriate. It's similar to adjusting your speech for class, work, and friends.

You may think it is petty, but I wager that the further you advance in your studies, the more you will find this is the case in any electronic communication between academics. As a comparable example, the Chronicle of Higher Education has a forum that is populated primarily by professors and advanced graduate students. Nonstandard English is not allowed on the forum, with the explanation that it is an academic forum and as such requires a level of propriety. It's hardly a stuffy place (as you can see if you read through it), but the posters require it and disallow such things as textspeak because it is incompatible with the population it serves. I fail to see why the population of this forum is significantly different from that, apart from the fact that grad students here are generally beginning in their career. I don't consider that sufficient argument.

Oh, and incidentally, your second response post is a red herring. As I said, this has nothing to do with understanding. However, I would say that if a person posted like that, it would also be inappropriate, and there would be little argument about it.

[pointedears]

You may think it is petty, but I wager that the further you advance in your studies, the more you will find this is the case in any electronic communication between academics. As a comparable example, the Chronicle of Higher Education has a forum that is populated primarily by professors and advanced graduate students. Nonstandard English is not allowed on the forum, with the explanation that it is an academic forum and as such requires a level of propriety. It's hardly a stuffy place (as you can see if you read through it), but the posters require it and disallow such things as textspeak because it is incompatible with the population it serves. I fail to see why the population of this forum is significantly different from that, apart from the fact that grad students here are generally beginning in their career. I don't consider that sufficient argument.

Not really. This forum is far from any formal setting where academics interact. A lot of things are spoken which wouldn't be elsewhere. If one can use the 'f' word here, I see no reason why a 'u' should be a problem. If people can bitch about professors and schools, I don't see why a simple chatspeak case should be considered unprofessional. You* can't have it both ways. Either this is a formal forum where 'highly educated people'(who incidentally use a language they won't even think about using in letters to their mentors) interact or this is a discussion board, take your pick.

*general you ofcourse

[excel]

It has nothing to do with being stuffy or otherwise; it's simply a desire for clear communication and literacy.

If you say that it is because of a desire for "clear communication", I think you very clearly bring the question of understanding into the discussion. And, I think that is the only relevant variable here or in any communication.

I have already said that I believe the context of the communication is important in my previous post (3rd point). In fact, my previous post indirectly contains the response to your first two paragraphs. I suggest you reread it and try to understand it.

I would also urge you to think deeply about why we in academia use formal language in most of our communication. Dont just think: "people in academia use formal language because that is what is appropriate, so we should too."

One more thing: if someone does not consider the content of a text with seriousness because there are a few instances of the use of "u" in place of "you", that person has an attitude problem. I do not respect such a person. If someone does not like textspeak, that is a different matter.

By the way, you will not find name-calling, swearing, and insults being tolerated in The Chronicle of Higher Education either...not that I believe the Chronicle's policies are relevant to this discussion or forum.

[crustaceangirl]

excel, that meme about letter-order is at least partially dubious. See here: http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/

It is a neat trick, though. :-)

[Minnesotan]

Just so we're clear, nobody has called anyone any names during the course of this discussion, so please stop whining about that. The only reason you folks have your panties in a bunch is because I've been playing around, using a sarcastic tone of voice while busting your humps about the highly annoying method of communication you choose to employ. If you honestly take yourselves so seriously that nobody is allowed to bring you down a notch when you get up on your high horse, then you're going to have a horrible time during grad school. I mean it.

Someone (excel, I think) used the example of the f-bomb as an appropriate word for this forum, in an attempt to justify idiotspeak. Curses of any sort, especially if directed at another person, are not appropriate. The difference is that we realize adults will use that sort of language on occasion, and we are all adults here, so we can handle it. On the other hand, there is no occasion where a grad student should attempt to communicate in the manner of a twelve year old girl. It will always be inappropriate.

I think the Chronicle's rules are a good thing to emulate. We are budding professionals around here, not a bunch of drunken frat boys. Yes, we can give each other (and our profs) a little hell, but this should serve a therapeutic purpose, only. In general, this should be a professional atmosphere.

You need to remember, though, that jokes are allowed in a professional atmosphere. It's time you stopped taking yourselves so seriously. I know I don't.

[excel]

Minnesotan, first of all I did not use that example though I highly approve of the example.

You consistently use vulgar language in your posts (should I provide examples??) and then talk about emulating the rules of the Chronicle???

You write stuff like this against a member here: "That's okay, though. It's always the people like you who leave after their first year, and go brood for a living at the trendy coffee shops, downtown. Make sure you hold up that copy of Kafka high enough for the chicks to see. They just love the intense, angst-ridden grad school dropout types." ...and you talk about rules emulating the Chronicle???

You are talking of professionalism??? Several of your posts here are highly offensive and unprofessional. You say things like that in the professional community, and see where you end up.

On the other hand, there is no occasion where a grad student should attempt to communicate in the manner of a twelve year old girl. It will always be inappropriate.

You are so arrogant that you do not get a simple point, do you??? You are Not any authority. You have absolutely no right to presumptuously decide what is appropriate or inappropriate. You do not have any right to say what is communicating in the manner of a twelve year old etc etc. If you think so, fine, go ahead and think so, and get lost...It is not for you to decide how we communicate, and I do not care what you think unless you can give any good reasons.