This is absolute torment!

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

I applied to 10 schools and got into 5. Not bad for the school I come from. Here is my dilemma: I got into a top 5 school and a school ranked much lower in 2005. When I left the top 5, I was very certain that I was going there. Two weeks later, I visted the much lower ranked school and liked it more than I thought I would. I like the fact that they are working really hard to improve their department by trying to hire very established scholars. Their goal is to move way up in the rankings in the next couple of years. I think it would be a great opportunity, but I want to come back to California and they have not placed anyone in a CA university at least since 2000, and they have very few placements at research universities. They are willing to match my highest offer so I would live much better there than at said top 5. I would hate living in the town, and I would be the only member of my racial group in the department. But they offer a lot of support to their grad students. I absolutely loved the top 5, but there is a LOT less money, and it is on the opposite side of the country. I just need help sorting it all out, so if you have any insights, I would appreciate it.

[rising_star]

I wouldn't let diversity considerations really bug you. But I'm in a very white, very male discipline so I'd be in the minority regardless of where I went. Go with your gut feeling and you likely won't regret it. It isn't all about ranking; a lot is about not being miserable in your 5 years of grad school.

P.S. Given the budget situation in CA, I wouldn't count on getting a higher ed job there (or anywhere else). It doesn't really matter that the school hasn't placed anyone in CA in years. That could be for a variety of reasons: students not applying to CA jobs, bad fit between job ad and students, etc. Many grad students I know avoid CA because the cost of living is so high and the pay at the associate level is often the same as in places with much lower cost of living. An ABD student in my program turned down a job in CA to continue living on a grad student stipend in GA because, with cost of living figured in, he was actually going to net less money...

[eve2008]

How much lower-ranked is the school you like better? The difference between #5 and #10 is different thing entirely than the difference between #5 and #30. Also, bear in mind that while you might have less personal funding at the #5 school, there might be more resources for research support and competitive funding sources within the university.

I hope that you are at least getting a tuition waiver and a stipend at the #5 school. Have you tried negotiating for more money there? Or being straightforward that this up-and-coming institution is willing to offer you a significant package, and so financial considerations may play more of a role than they should in your decision, unless they up your offer, etc.?

Placement matters, and if you want to get a TT job at an R1, you should go to the #5 program, even if it is (as others have argued on other threads) simply a matter of drastically increasing the probability your file will be read. So if I were you, I'd go to the higher-ranked school.

Also bear in mind that while the school might intend to hire several new senior scholars in the next few years, you have no way of knowing if they will be successful at luring those scholars away from their current institutions, or if the new hires will even be in your field. If you're studying biophysics, it might be great for the department if they hire a rock star evolutionary biologist, but that probably has absolutely no impact on you and your prospects. Your concern is selecting a department from which you can build a strong committee, and for that purpose, you should only be talking about the bird in the hand. And you should also try and ask people about their future plans (I'm sure you already know that departments are rife with gossip about who is unhappy and who is trying to hire whom away from where).

That said, I do agree with rising_star: there is something to be said about going somewhere where you will be happy not only because you will ultimately be a more productive scholar, but also because these are years of your life that you ought to be living well.

On the diversity issue. I've pretty much accepted that the more successful I am, the more white and male my world will become. This is not always easy, but if you look at the makeup of cohorts these days, I think it's clear that academia is starting to become more diverse. Think of yourself as a trailblazer. And think about all of your future undergraduate and graduate students of color (now just out of diapers) who you will one day inspire and encourage by choosing taking the road less traveled.

Of course, this is all a matter of how drastic the difference in funding, ranking, and your love for these two schools really are.

I do sympathize with your torment. I'm deciding between two fantastic programs. I will have serious regrets saying "no" to either of them, but as much as I would want to, I can't choose both!

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

"How much lower-ranked is the school you like better? The difference between #5 and #10 is different than the difference between #5 and #30. Also, bear in mind that while you might have less personal funding at the #5 school, there might be more resources for research support and competitive funding sources within the university."

Actually, I don't necessarily like the lower ranked school better. I like it for TOTALLY opposite reasons. The top 5 was a dream school. I actually thought I had a better chance of getting into Stanford than that one. I didn't get into Stanford, but did get in to the one on the other side of the world. Anyway, I htink the quaint little southern town the the top 5 is in is much nicer than the depressed midwestern city that the lower ranked one is in. I don't know why I am fighting this. My gut tells me the top 5 is better, but the #49 (yes#49) is really trying. I just don't know that their efforts will pay off in time for me to be on the job market.

[eve2008]

Good God! Go to the #5 school.

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

I know it is silly. Something (money?) is telling me to go to the #49. I got tuition and and a stipend at the top 5 as well, but not as much. To complicate matters, next weekend, I am visiting another great school, out in the middle of NOWHERE but with a SUPER famous sociologist as my mentor. Problem is he is the ONLY person there I want to work with. This is much worse than I ever dreamed it would be. I am not complaining; I have excellent choices, but my need to second guess myself at every turn is making me CRAZY!

[eve2008]

I understand that impulse...

I'm sure you've also been told this, but NEVER choose a program for only ONE person. people move. people retire. people cross streets with fast-moving traffic.

[sashababie]

#5 and #49 is a stretch, money is not an issue as long as you can survive, and you can always look for outside funding to add to your stipend. No matter how hard the #49 tries (and succeeds) it's highly unlikely it'll produce graduates ready for the TT market ( ) who'll receive equal recognition as #5 grads by the time you finish your PhD.

On a side note, the single wellknown scholar might be luring you towards school C, but please do consider the program as a whole. If your work nicely coincides with his/hers you could very well get to work with him/her regardless of where you are.

[LaraAnn85]

I understand that impulse...

I'm sure you've also been told this, but NEVER choose a program for only ONE person. people move. people retire. people cross streets with fast-moving traffic.

This is horrible but made me laugh :roll:

[StarvingStudentYeah]

I have to chime in here and say that, IMO, many people put WAAY too much stock into a ranking. Have you ever seen the arbitrary means by which various people/organizations/etc come up with these all important rankings? Have you ever seen how much variance there can be in those rankings?

Generally, they should be considered as advised already in this thread - as hierarchical rankings. Meaning #1 is essentially no different from #10 or even #15. Usually the rankings are based on # of apps, selectivity, % of ppl who are accepted and subsequently enroll, etc. While there is some valuable info you can glean from that, it's pretty general, impersonal, and based on majority. Need I remind you that majority mentality got us Bush, NAFTA, Britney Spears, and NSync? Not always how you wanna go, ya know?

I am in the same boat to a degree so I certainly sympathize. It's SOOO hard to make a final decision. I'm getting there, but every time I think I'm done I feel that cognitive dissonance and get cold feet. As I said in another thread, go with your gut feeling. Whatever that little voice says, follow it. Basically, that little voice is an aggregate of all info you care about (in most instances) both conscious factors and things you don't even realize you picked up on. Sometimes it disagrees with your head and that feels icky - but in my experience the gut feeling is usually the correct one.

In the end, you'll be somewhat stoked, and somewhat bummed about your program most likely.

Good luck!

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

It's not REALLY the ranking that I am concerned with, it is the overall reputation of the program and my odds of being able to come back to my life here in San Jose.

[rising_star]

It's not REALLY the ranking that I am concerned with, it is the overall reputation of the program and my odds of being able to come back to my life here in San Jose.

Is the goal of doing your PhD to get a job in San Jose? If so, this may be very unrealistic. Like I said earlier, you need to take into consideration the job market and the desires of the people that graduated. If no one wanted to move to CA (which is becoming more common among academics because of low pay and high cost of living), then it's not surprising they haven't placed anyone there. You didn't ask the programs where people applied, you asked where they went. Something worth considering is that not everyone wants to move to CA, not everyone applies to jobs in CA, etc. Maybe ask if people tried to work in CA and failed or if they just didn't try. That information seems potentially much more useful to you.

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

Is the goal of doing your PhD to get a job in San Jose? If so, this may be very unrealistic. Like I said earlier, you need to take into consideration the job market and the desires of the people that graduated. If no one wanted to move to CA (which is becoming more common among academics because of low pay and high cost of living), then it's not surprising they haven't placed anyone there. You didn't ask the programs where people applied, you asked where they went. Something worth considering is that not everyone wants to move to CA, not everyone applies to jobs in CA, etc. Maybe ask if people tried to work in CA and failed or if they just didn't try. That information seems potentially much more useful to you.

Well, I want an academic job in CA. Today. I fully recognize that this could change, and that this may not be possible, btu I want to maximize my chances of doing so. I know that the job market sucks. I know that California is in a budget crisis; I work for the CSU system. But I have a goal, and I need to do what is best to acheive the goal, no matter how unrealistic it seems to others. You gave me excellent advice, and I will take it.

[talulah08]

As someone who's spent the last few years in a department with very few women, and also even fewer people of color, who didn't initially think that these considerations would so heavily influence the norms of the department, I'm going to have to chime in here and simply say: diversity matters a lot! It's cool that the lower-ranked school is courting you so much, but (like in most relationships!) the initial courtship is not necessarily an indication of what's to come.

[zigazowohnow]

I promise I am not a rankings junkie but honestly it seems like the program you should attend would be the top 5.

You don't want to take gambles on your career and it seems as though you know that's what you would be doing at #49....besides that you want to be happy and a lot contributes to your happiness. Setting (urban settings seem to be easier to be happy in) and diversity (a lot of minorities struggle in their programs due to a lack of social support from people who look like them and have their shared experiences) are important factors to keep in consideration.

I know you want to give #49 a chance and I admire your compassion however you have worked so hard to make yourself competitive now is not the time to be taking chances...especially chances in the middle of nowhere.

Lastly funding is never something you should choose one school over another for provided that your fully funded at both. A couple thousand dollars now is not worth risking many lucrative job opportunities that the school with less funding could get you. Graduate school is not the time to live comfortable, therefore money matters should be the very last of your concerns. Be content with being broke during graduate school.

[rising_star]

As someone who's spent the last few years in a department with very few women, and also even fewer people of color, who didn't initially think that these considerations would so heavily influence the norms of the department, I'm going to have to chime in here and simply say: diversity matters a lot! It's cool that the lower-ranked school is courting you so much, but (like in most relationships!) the initial courtship is not necessarily an indication of what's to come.

I agree that these things are important but it's also important to consider which school offers more support to its students. It's great to have graduate student support but having faculty support is even better. I'm in a dept with few people of color but a decent number of women. The only person who would be honest with me about the lack of racial diversity in the dept and the field has been a white female professor who, in part due to the honesty and her understanding of some difficult situations, has become my advisor and been extremely helpful to me. Had I just looked at dept diversity, I would've gone elsewhere. And you know what? I doubt I would've found the support that I've gotten.

Not to mention many universities have graduate school-wide programs for minority graduate students. These are a great opportunity to network with other minority graduate students and build a support network.

I would sort of lean towards the up and coming school just because a lot of highly ranked schools are resting on past laurels...

[pcs]

I too struggled with rankings, promises of up and coming departments, etc. Although all these things are important and it's great to have particular faculty you're really excited about, you might want to consider a bit more about the program. Some programs set up a really close student/faculty mentorship, others provide a broader and more general structure. Consider how you best learn, the type of support you need to advance your research (e.g. a really hands-off advisor who's available when you really need her/him v. an advisor or committee who are constantly looking over your shoulder with encouragement/criticism). No matter what the ranking of the program or who is on the faculty, you need to be in a program that fits all of your needs-- academic and social. That said, a number of my academic mentors have been very clear in their advice to go to the highest ranked program possible. It all seems like a crapshoot. Follow your gut and work hard. Chances are you'll be fine.

[flyingwalrus]

Easy choice: top 5. It'll open the most doors for you, fair or not.

[sashababie]

I don't know why a lot of people discredit rankings so much, the top 20 doesn't really look much different from that of last year's compared with 10 years ago, and most schools are not only "prestigious" but also highly academically productive. There may be lots of instances out there for unique programs that have been well managed and are suited to individual students with specific fields of study, and said students could very well thrive in such environments. But never underestimate the influence of institute name if your ultimate goal is career-oriented; if you're only looking for a few rewarding years of study, I say go with whatever program suits you best, but if you're looking for placement booster factors and if you don't actually believe you'd be miserable at a higher ranked school, I say go with realistic perspective rather than gut feeling.

[materialgirl]

Sashababie made sense when she talked about career goals as a factor, but I really do think it's a necessity to go with your gut. First of all, it's not your surroundings that are going to make you happy or unhappy, it's how you react to them. So before you accept an offer, make sure you're comfortable with it (and excited!). When I made my decision I decided to give up the school with a famous advisor for another school that fit me better. There are always going to be these 'oh well' trade-offs, but if you're comfortable with your decision it won't feel like you're losing anything. I suggest you talk to someone who knows you well. I did that with my advisor and family members, and they all told me I was obviously leaning toward one school. It turns out I was, I just didn't realize it yet. And as a side note, I think you will find that even if you don't factor in the rankings, you'll see that the #5 school is usually higher quality. And if it's not, then you pretty much have your answer (so leave those rankings for the alumni to care about). Good luck!

[futureprof]

I can totally relate to the OP. I just declined my lower ranked option after visiting one of the higher ranked ones. The biggest reason was the placement record. I just had to ask myself, do I want to get the kind of job their grads get? (& not to mention the ones who don't find careers in academia). Its important to get a straight answer to the question of where *all* their graduates get placed (or not placed) & how many people finish the program. That's the kind of info you might not get right off the website.

Pardon the hackneyed analogy but, there's nothing wrong with being a big fish in a small pond. However, after 5-7 years you'll get on the job market (the ocean if you will) and might regret forgoing the more valuable degree. That's the conclusion I reached after dealing with a very similar dilemma.

[eve2008]

I know there's been a lot of sensitive talk about rankings, at least on the poli sci board, but the OP is talking about #5 v. #49! Not #5 v. #10 or #20. That is a huge difference. Rankings have a degree of noise, but they are not arbitrary. Also, you should think about the quality of students at your program. There are smart people everywhere, but there are more smart people with better preparation and more interesting backgrounds at the very top programs for the simple reason that they have the resources (name recognition, star faculty, etc.) to compete for them. In seminar, you want to learn from and be pushed as much by your peers as your professor.

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

OK, I think the torment is over. I can see myself at the top 5, I can imagine my life there, and I will not need a UV lamp in my living room to ward off depression. You have all helped tremendously with shutting up the voices in my head. Thank you.

[Leavinmyheartinsf]

Alright people. #49 just responded with an enormous offer and #5 is not budging on theirs. Please remind me that money isn't everything, even at 30 years old!

[rising_star]

Money isn't everything but it sure is a lot of things.