Buying new laptop

[natsteel]

Points well taken. I am from a family of PC techs and IT support and used Windows since it came out. Last year, I bought a MBP and have loved every minute of it. I appreciate the person above who has had a good experience with his Dell laptop, but generally the advice I give is to avoid Dell laptops (though not their desktops). If I had to buy a Windows laptop right now, I would probably go with an HP, though a lot of people seem to like ThinkPads as well.

I'm in the Humanities so I mostly use my MBP for the basics: email, internet, and writing. However, I also use it for watching movies, TV shows, etc... and so they graphics are a nice bonus. Of course, there are plenty of good laptops for much cheaper that will do all that, but I have really been won over by software for the Mac that is not available for Windows. Not incredibly important stuff, but the kind of stuff that is fun to use and/or makes tasks easier and more enjoyable. Then again, there are Windows alternatives to most of those programs. If you don't have that "I-really-want-a-Mac" feeling, then it's probably not worth the extra money. Of course, if the software you use for research is not available for the Mac, it's not worth getting one just to run Windows on anyway. Though I spent more on the MBP than I probably should have, I have never regretted it for a single second and would definitely do it again. At this point, I personally would dread having to go back to Windows full-time. Just my .02...

[Herbie]

I love my dirty white Macbook A1181 also. I didn't buy it, but I know it was a burden financially for who did.

I hope I didn't sound like I was drinking haterade in that post. Laptop batteries aren't generally known for durable lifetime expectancies anyway.

[meche]

Ok, I'm confused. All the specifications are the same but it performs worse? I don't mean to be obnoxious about this, but if the actual hardware is the same, what is the reason for the slow down? What I'm getting at is that the things that differentiate them are: case design (heat dissipation, antenna positioning, mechanical differences, etc), but those would not affect the performance in terms of "slow to run a program" and the cause most likely lies in the software. Anyway, I should've been clear about what I tried to get at.

all the major specs the average person will look at will be up to par (processor speed, hard drive size and maybe even RPM, ram size, etc.) but will cut corners on things like hard drive latency and ram speed, etc. this is true of some other laptops too, though.

but more importantly cheaper components = more likely to fail prematurely.

[timuralp]

all the major specs the average person will look at will be up to par (processor speed, hard drive size and maybe even RPM, ram size, etc.) but will cut corners on things like hard drive latency and ram speed, etc. this is true of some other laptops too, though.

Please stop repeating this without any data to support it. To anyone who cares there are a bunch of papers in CS talking about failure rates of components and, for example, for hard drives, fixing the manufacturer does not make a significant difference. In general, these components are not frequently replaced and if the hard drive dies, you're pretty unlucky (barring some firmware/manufacturing bug, which are pretty rare themselves). You have to backup your data no matter what you buy.

[meche]

Please stop repeating this without any data to support it. To anyone who cares there are a bunch of papers in CS talking about failure rates of components and, for example, for hard drives, fixing the manufacturer does not make a significant difference. In general, these components are not frequently replaced and if the hard drive dies, you're pretty unlucky (barring some firmware/manufacturing bug, which are pretty rare themselves). You have to backup your data no matter what you buy.

seriously, we're just talking about buying a computer. A while ago a chem teacher of mine was asked what he does when he cooks, if he meticulously measures everything out on a precision scale. He laughed and said he hadn't touched a measuring cup for years, because he was so tired of lab by the time he got home he just threw everything in a pan on the stove. So you can look up papers if you want, but I don't actually care that much.

tl;dr: Q.E.D.

but you're picking out the wrong factors. I didn't say anything about failure rate of hard drives specifically, although my guess is there are outliers (like a product release that's first on the market as soon as a new technology is developed) that will be statistically significant, and a study probably won't catch (since they probably pick one well established product line for each brand to examine)

I stand by my statement that component failure in a dell is probably going to be higher on average (and definitely is compared to a workstation notebook like a thinkpad). but if you want to prove me wrong, go ahead and look up a study, I'd be surprised to hear that there's actually a good one looking at something like that.

[Gaijin Punch]

Instead of starting a new thread I'll just continue with this one.

The Mac vs. PC debate doesn't come down to components anymore, it's just personal preference at this point in terms of OS as well as aesthetics/design.

I had a Dell laptop for undergrad and after I finished school I passed it down to my mom and she is still using it (sure it's on its last legs now, but it is already 6 years old without any upgrades). I don't believe in the whole cutting corners thing, as long as the primary technical components are up to par you should be ok. EVERY manufacturer will have lemons, whether its Apple, Dell, Samsung, Asus, HP, etc.

I just ordered a new Dell laptop yesterday to use for grad school, and it has the exact same processor, motherboard and on-board video card as the new Macbook Pro (Intel i5-2410 sandy bridge) but I paid $550 less than the Macbook Pro. I just couldn't justify spending almost double the price for a laptop where the most important components are the exact same. Is the Dell as fashionable and trendy as the Macbook Pro? Definitely not. But if it lasts me through grad school and a few years afterwords, I believe it will be money well spent.

Plus with the price difference, I can buy a flat screen when I move

[singlecell]

I'm with you! My 2007 Dell laptop just died but it was a beast right up until the end.

Instead of starting a new thread I'll just continue with this one.

The Mac vs. PC debate doesn't come down to components anymore, it's just personal preference at this point in terms of OS as well as aesthetics/design.

I had a Dell laptop for undergrad and after I finished school I passed it down to my mom and she is still using it (sure it's on its last legs now, but it is already 6 years old without any upgrades). I don't believe in the whole cutting corners thing, as long as the primary technical components are up to par you should be ok. EVERY manufacturer will have lemons, whether its Apple, Dell, Samsung, Asus, HP, etc.

I just ordered a new Dell laptop yesterday to use for grad school, and it has the exact same processor, motherboard and on-board video card as the new Macbook Pro (Intel i5-2410 sandy bridge) but I paid $550 less than the Macbook Pro. I just couldn't justify spending almost double the price for a laptop where the most important components are the exact same. Is the Dell as fashionable and trendy as the Macbook Pro? Definitely not. But if it lasts me through grad school and a few years afterwords, I believe it will be money well spent.

Plus with the price difference, I can buy a flat screen when I move

[natsteel]

The Mac vs. PC debate doesn't come down to components anymore, it's just personal preference at this point in terms of OS as well as aesthetics/design.

I think Mac vs. PC is a false dichotomy when it comes to this debate. It should be Mac vs. Dell or Mac vs. HP or Mac vs. Acer, etc.... You all may have had different experiences, but I have found that, if I couldn't buy a Mac, of all the main manufacturers of PC laptops, I'd buy an HP. I've never been a big fan of Dell laptops, though their desktops are very reliable.

I would agree with the person above who wrote about the difference in components. But Macs have a number of features that no PC laptop has which contribute to the higher price, e.g. the body, the battery, the magnetic power input, etc... all proprietary. Whether you personally consider these, the OS, and the overall culture of design innovation worth the extra price is up to you. But there is no doubt that more goes into the average MacBook than into your average Dell or HP laptop.

Edited May 13, 2011 by natsteel

[fumblewhat]

I agree that the Mac vs. PC (Dell, etc) is largely a personal preference these days. That said, I'm pretty firmly in the former camp. I've had the same Macbook Pro for almost 5 years now. This is only based on my personal experience, but I really do think Macs hold up better than most over the long run. I've replaced the battery and power cord once, but my warranty was 3 years long, so that was covered. It's survived 3 or 4 major OS updates without so much as batting an eye. I lost a key once (my own fault), took it into the store and they replaced the keyboard for free the very same day. There's really no competition for Apple customer care and support.

As for expense.... This is only anecdotal, but my sister has spent more on her Dell in the last 5 years than I have on my Mac.

My computer has grown slower in her old age, but if Macs have problems (I've owned three in my lifetime), I've yet to run into them!

[Eigen]

One of the things to keep in mind with macs is that with the increased price, there's also an increased resale value.

A 2007 macbook still sells for ~60% of it's face value pretty easily. No 2007 era PC could do the same.

Similarly, the 2005 iMac G5's still sell for ~300-400$... I can't think of any PC from 2005 that would sell for a fraction of that much.

This makes it a lot easier to upgrade for relatively minor costs once you're past the initial investment.

And I say all this never having owned a Mac... Although I'm thinking about picking one up. I was always more of a "power user", and wanted to be able to do more in upgrades/work on my computer, which most Mac's don't allow to any great degree.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Eigen

[thesnout]

I had a Thinkpad R51 for years and the battery did what you are describing towards the end. I had to keep it plugged in to work. Lenovos are amazing computers though IMO. I'll buy another one if I can afford it. I miss my Thinkpad, it handled AutoCAD, Viz, Photoshop, etc without any problems.

I've heard good things about Dell too. I need a laptop that can handle all my design work. I'm not a fan of mac's. So it's PC for me. Viruses and all! My hp netbook is quite nice though.

In the end the choice should be based on your program's requirements. Good luck.

[timuralp]

On the topic of batteries, keeping it constantly charged will kill it pretty quickly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Cell_life

So, this is somewhat inconvenient, but I've been removing mine when not requiring a battery to work (most of the time) and keeping it charged around 40%. The battery now is 5 years old. After a full charge, it still lasts 2-2.5 hours depending on the brightness of the screen and whether the 802.11 card is on or not and workload. Something to consider if you want to prolong its life.

[singlecell]

On the topic of batteries, keeping it constantly charged will kill it pretty quickly: http://en.wikipedia....ttery#Cell_life

So, this is somewhat inconvenient, but I've been removing mine when not requiring a battery to work (most of the time) and keeping it charged around 40%. The battery now is 5 years old. After a full charge, it still lasts 2-2.5 hours depending on the brightness of the screen and whether the 802.11 card is on or not and workload. Something to consider if you want to prolong its life.

Wow, thanks for that. I had no idea... it makes sense once you read the explanation. So I can go from 20% annual capacity loss to 4% by not keeping it constantly plugged in.

[awvish]

I just posted a similar message in the Lobby laptop thread, so if you read that one...I'm sorry/you can ignore this one/please don't hit the ceiling.

I'm looking for a licensed Mac OS 10.5 install (not update) disk to do a clean install on my 7-year-old PowerBook G4. It's the highest this hardware can run, and I'm currently on 10.3.9, which is something of a joke at this point.

All the used and new prices I can find online are pretty high, so I was hoping someone might want to help me out by selling or lending their disk at a cheaper price (I'm happy to pay for it either way).

Thank you!

[juilletmercredi]

Ah, the Mac vs. Windows wars. They never fail to amuse me.

awvish, do you have access to a university? I know that my university has Windows 7, Windows XP and Mac OS installs available for university affiliates for just such purposes.

I do want to say one thing, though. You do not have to pay someone else to regularly "tune up" a PC. Here is what they are charging you $50-100 for:

-Tests the hardware and software on your device to see it it works. That means making sure the CD-ROM drive opens and whether you can still open Word.

-Gives you an estimate for any upgrades that you may "need". Which means a sales pitch.

-Removes unnecessary programs.

-Installs new updates (which your computer can do automatically).

-Removes dust from your computer (buy some canned air).

-Defrag your PC.

These are all things you can do yourself, even if you aren't technically savvy. Don't let people rip you off by telling you that a PC needs a regular tune up that only they can do. That definitely should not account for the price differential between a Mac and a PC.

[awvish]

awvish, do you have access to a university? I know that my university has Windows 7, Windows XP and Mac OS installs available for university affiliates for just such purposes.

I will starting in mid-June, but I didn't think they'd have semi-obsolete versions. If they *do*, though, that'd be pretty awesome. Thanks!

[KM3]

I've had the same Dell laptop for 4.5 years. I've seen people railing against Dell repeatedly and I'm left a bit confused. As far as I can tell, I pretty much got the best value for the $600 I spent on it at the time. Often, the criticism is "runs slowly", but that's not even a hardware issue. I'm not saying that one should only consider them, but I think Dell's getting more flak than they deserve. Also, looking at the actual components they're pretty much the same across the board and one could easily figure out what the brand markup is for every brand. The only thing that really changes is the case.

I bought my Dell XPS at the start of my MA program and under a year after I finished, it has died. It had lots of the typical annoying PC complaints--blue screen, crashing, etc. I am using my partner's laptop right now because mine won't even turn on!!! (and I have and run antivirus). I am getting a MAC for my phD. Done with Dell, done with PC.

[cogneuroforfun]

The advice I heard with Dell is that you should spring for one of their small business laptops, not the standard consumer models. In the summer before grad school (2 years ago), I went for a Dell Vostro, for several reasons: the hardware was supposedly better made (less bend in the keyboard, for example) and buying that got me in with the Dell business customer support, rather than the standard Dell support. So far, the computer has been fantastic. I used a coupon code that I found on a site like http://www.notebookreview.com/deals/ , which let me get ~$1600 in specs for under $900, plus a few extra little freebies, and ordering direct from Dell (or any other manufacturer) lets you customize the machine however you want. That kind of deal easily beat out anything offered by my undergrad or graduate school. I'm not sure how much of that has changed in the past two years, but after experiencing a couple terrible Dell desktops, I have been happy with the laptop. Definitely look for coupon codes for specific manufacturers, as they can save you tons of money.

Remember, you can always get a dud machine, with any manufacturer. My HP laptop lasted for 5 years in the early 2000s without any problems before finally getting too obsolete, while my wife's lasted 2 years before a fan died (cost >$100 to fix, ugh) and it started blue-screening at random. Many people have happy Mac stories, but the one plain Macbook we ever owned also crapped out after 2 years, couldn't hold a charge in the battery, and started randomly shutting itself down and freezing with simple programs. That doesn't mean Mac or HP or X are awesome/terrible. Get the one with the price and specs right for you!

[ZeChocMoose]

I have a couple "business" Dell computers and they are good for about 3 years. After that they start to slow down and need to have parts replaced. One of my laptops had to have its battery replaced every year and it was costly. Another one the monitor and graphics card died. Given that your average doctoral program is longer than 3 years, I cannot recommend them.

That being said, I recently have begun looking at Lenovo Thinkpads either the W- or T-series for my doctoral work. I read a couple comments about them upthread, but I was wondering if anyone had any additional thoughts. I am particularly looking for a machine that has a fast processing speed, can handle multiple applications running at the same time, has a decent memory capacity, and will last about 5 years or so without major repairs. If you don't think Thinkpads will work, I am open to other PC suggestions! (I can't do a Mac since there are a couple statistical software packages that won't work with it.)

[rising_star]

Remember, you can always get a dud machine, with any manufacturer. My HP laptop lasted for 5 years in the early 2000s without any problems before finally getting too obsolete, while my wife's lasted 2 years before a fan died (cost >$100 to fix, ugh) and it started blue-screening at random. Many people have happy Mac stories, but the one plain Macbook we ever owned also crapped out after 2 years, couldn't hold a charge in the battery, and started randomly shutting itself down and freezing with simple programs. That doesn't mean Mac or HP or X are awesome/terrible. Get the one with the price and specs right for you!

I think this is the best advice I've seen in this thread.

I have a couple "business" Dell computers and they are good for about 3 years. After that they start to slow down and need to have parts replaced. One of my laptops had to have its battery replaced every year and it was costly. Another one the monitor and graphics card died. Given that your average doctoral program is longer than 3 years, I cannot recommend them.

I had a Dell business laptop that lasted for all of undergrad until the day after I turned in my senior thesis. I replaced it by buying another Dell (Inspiron 1500 series) that I have had since May 2006. I had a few parts (heat sink, fan, thing holding the screen on) replaced while it was still under warranty and it has served me well for the 5+ years that I've had it. I'm hoping to replace it next year, but that's mainly because I want something faster and with more than a 60gb hard drive!

Honestly, asking for more than 3 years out of laptop is asking for a lot. A lot depends on how you plan to use it. The more you lug it around, the more likely you are to have problems.

[Eisenmann]

My Asus W7j is 5 years old and still going strong. This laptop is heavily used, photoshop, simulations, programming, etc. I also bring it to school almost every single day, but I do take special care for it.

I also have a macbook pro and the durability is even better than the Asus, but it was much more expensive so it better be.

I highly recommend Asus.

[mhphys]

When/where do you buy computers? I'm an international student and I'm planning to buy a mac. Is it better to buy it in my home country before leaving or should I buy it once I reach the US from a campus store? Are there any special discounts/offers at campus stores (on top of the 15% student discount)?

[Ennue]

If I compare prices for electronics in my home country with prices in the US, I would personally be much better off buying in the US. Partly because of the current dollar-euro exchange rates. However, even if that wasn't the case I would probably prefer to buy my electronics in the US, because if something breaks down you can go back to the store where you bought it.

[cogneuroforfun]

The discounts offered by my undergrad and grad schools were both pretty poor. They offered something like a specific, over-priced model, for a slightly reduced price. I have been buying parts and computers from newegg.com or straight from manufacturers (Apple, HP, etc.) and both work very well, let you customize what you want, and shop around until you find the right price for you.

[StrangeLight]

the mac OSes can have some problems. that's why i usually wait a few months until the bugs have worked out before upgrading my OS. and i rarely wait until the brand new models come out. everything has kinks that need to be worked out and if you don't buy your equipment because you need to be trendy, you can avoid a lot of the hassles.

for any/everyone that complains about short battery life, you should rarely keep a laptop plugged in when it's new. let it fully charge, and then unplug it and fully drain the battery. then plug it in and once it's recharged, unplug and drain it again. that ensures a longer battery life. just leaving the thing plugged in all the time will kill the battery. i think most battery problems tend to be problems with the users, not the equipment itself.

one lovely thing about macs is that they don't get (many) viruses. not because they're amazing, but because the people that write viruses don't bother to target mac OSes. i download a shit-ton of stuff and i know i'd have a number of viruses by now if i was on a PC. another lovely thing about macs is that every time you shut down the computer, it automatically defrags itself. this is a huge reason mac OSes don't get the same slowdown as PCs. i recently bought a PC netbook and within 2 or 3 weeks i had noticed that it was already performing slower.