Women in CS strangeness...

[SiraRaven]

I recently visited a school (let's call it school X). Early on, I had a visit with a female faculty member. We sat down and she immediately asked "Do you have any questions about being a woman in CS?" I was kind of surprised by the question, but I decided to ask the only real question I could think of: "What's the gender ratio here?" She answered and went on to discuss their CS women's organization, which seemed very nice and all, and she seemed very proud of their ratio (in the 20-30 range). Later, I was talking with someone else, and he was talking again about how proud they are of their ratio and went on to say "We do try to recruit women. Well, I mean. we don't choose them if they're worse, but other things being equal, we try to accept more women." I was...kind of taken aback. It was always in the back of my mind that things like that might go on, but I didn't think that was the kind of thing he would just come right out and tell me (kind of felt like it diminished my acceptance there). I come from a very small liberal arts school where there are really no other women in the department, but it's never been something that's bothered me or that I've given much thought to. I understand that there's a significant gender gap and that people are trying to take action to close it, but it was just very strange at School X when people seemed so fixated on my gender (and assumed that my status as a 'woman in CS' was something I fixated on as well). Has anyone else had a similar experience?

[b_randie]

I had a similar experience while I was in undergrad. My first CS class was a weed out lecture class with over 200 students. I was one of five females. I definitely felt singled out in the class and I felt as if I received special treatment on projects. I ended up changing my major to the social sciences. In your case, maybe you should view it as something positive. The person you talked to did say that they accepted women in their program if all the variables were equal, so I don't think you should feel like you were accepted because of your gender. The harsh reality is that computer science is primarily made of men, but at least this school is aware of the gender stereotyping that occurs in our society. Congrats on the acceptance!

I recently visited a school (let's call it school X). Early on, I had a visit with a female faculty member. We sat down and she immediately asked "Do you have any questions about being a woman in CS?" I was kind of surprised by the question, but I decided to ask the only real question I could think of: "What's the gender ratio here?" She answered and went on to discuss their CS women's organization, which seemed very nice and all, and she seemed very proud of their ratio (in the 20-30 range). Later, I was talking with someone else, and he was talking again about how proud they are of their ratio and went on to say "We do try to recruit women. Well, I mean. we don't choose them if they're worse, but other things being equal, we try to accept more women." I was...kind of taken aback. It was always in the back of my mind that things like that might go on, but I didn't think that was the kind of thing he would just come right out and tell me (kind of felt like it diminished my acceptance there). I come from a very small liberal arts school where there are really no other women in the department, but it's never been something that's bothered me or that I've given much thought to. I understand that there's a significant gender gap and that people are trying to take action to close it, but it was just very strange at School X when people seemed so fixated on my gender (and assumed that my status as a 'woman in CS' was something I fixated on as well). Has anyone else had a similar experience?

[csperson]

I think the CS professors just want the best PhD students they could get. I don't think gender plays a role in the admissions process.

[SiraRaven]

I think the CS professors just want the best PhD students they could get. I don't think gender plays a role in the admissions process.

Yeah, that was what I assumed, which is why it was so strange when the professor flat out said that, if they're between two candidates who are close, they'll try to pick the female.

[csperson]

Yeah, that was what I assumed, which is why it was so strange when the professor flat out said that, if they're between two candidates who are close, they'll try to pick the female.

He only said that because he believes men are more superior. A lot of men are like that. You will see more men like that in the future.

[adinutzyc]

EVERY school I visited was like that in one way or another. Not saying that they accept worse women than men, but in making a huge deal of my gender and having a special panel for women in CS in some places. I mean, it's all nice and well and stuff, but I want to be good because I am good, not because I am OK and female. I think artificially evening the scale is not going to lead anyone anywhere, and I sure hope this is not the case! I do not think I am getting any kind of special treatment in my UG for that matter... Also, why would they put efforts in recruiting us and convincing us to do computer science- we already KNOW we want to do computer science and are evidently good enough to get in. If they want to even the scale they should go in middle schools and high schools etc. It is really bothersome to be singled out as a woman and even be considered to have been positively discriminated in getting where you are now- when it took you as much work as it did your male counterparts and when you are at least as good as them! [/end rant]

But seriously, I am glad I am not the only one feeling more discriminated by them being apparently so very nice...

[newms]

As I'm not female, I'm probably not the best qualified to weigh in on this topic, but I think the reason schools try to sell you their ratio of female students is to show that as a woman, there would be other women in the program that you could relate with. This discussion reminds me about a discussion on a machine learning list about the relevance of the Women in Machine Learning workshop. A few profs and grad students weighed in and gave their views: http://groups.google...471734d7264b3a1

Edited April 5, 2011 by newms

[adinutzyc]

I couldn't really read all that (I feel there were some moderated comments? because otherwise there was only one comment I felt was relevant, maybe 2).

That being said I am going to a Grace Hopper regional to present my poster, but I am a lot more excited to be participating in an actual CS conference than about the fact that it's a woman dedicated conference... And Grace Hopper (the main conference) is something I REALLY want to attend (because of the prestige and of the "fun" in it -- I've been told it's a lot of fun)!

That being said... When I was growing up I used to be one of the few people in my class genuinely interested in CS. My high-school was a CS high school (not in the States), but we did have a female-to-male ratio of 50/50. There was no special treatment, no awkwardness about being female, not even a mention of "oh, you're a girl, you shouldn't do that!" So it never even crossed my mind that I couldn't do something! Why do you guys here in the states keep reminding girls that they're "not supposed to" like CS, and that if they do, they are such a rarity that there need to be women mentors, women-only conferences, women scholarships -- heck, there's even minority scholarships for white women... If that is not discrimination, I really do not know what is (no, I do not agree with discrimination, gender-based or racial or of any other sort, not even if it is positive -- it just makes me wonder if they care about my potential or about my potential as a woman). There are even studies that want to prove girls like female teachers better or something like that... I think it somehow states that CS is simply not for girls, and it is not true... and the gender of the professor certainly doesn't matter (I actually for some reason have more confidence when speaking to male CS professors than when speaking with female ones, but that's just my experience which was not that great with the female profs)

Meh, I ranted again, sorry... Honestly, if this brings me to my dream job that I might not otherwise achieve... I'll take it... (and I'll never know whether I did it as a woman or as a person anyway)

[csKid]

I'm a guy and I'm considering choosing a female advisor for a doctoral program. All this seems to be strange for me, and I'm concerned with all this strangeness.

[adinutzyc]

You shouldn't be concerned, I didn't see any strangeness going on between female advisers and male advisees anywhere

[csKid]

I can read between the lines. Anyway, I'm excited and lucky to get the advisor and attend the program.

You shouldn't be concerned, I didn't see any strangeness going on between female advisers and male advisees anywhere

Edited April 5, 2011 by rejectMeNot

[adinutzyc]

lol, I absolutely had no intention of insinuating anything one way or another!

[beanbagchairs]

Ow gosh.. this topic . I did my undergrad in CS, so I have been in positions where I am either the only female, two, three, or five (tops) females in a class of guys. I worked for a couple of years in the industry, where, at one time, I considered to put up a sign "I AM NOT A SECRETARY, I AM AN ENGINEER!!!", for the amount of people coming up to me to arrange meetings/finding someone. Granted that my desk was near the entrance door; but, cmon!

The funny thing is that I am not bothered by the gender gap, It's just that other people notice it more.

Having said that, I dont think professors choose us based on our gender. We need to believe in that. If we start to believe in otherwise, subconsciously, we'll expect ourselves to perform worse than those guys. I think science should not be evaluated based on gender. I hope it stays that way forever.

[Amogh]

Ow gosh.. this topic . I did my undergrad in CS, so I have been in positions where I am either the only female, two, three, or five (tops) females in a class of guys. I worked for a couple of years in the industry, where, at one time, I considered to put up a sign "I AM NOT A SECRETARY, I AM AN ENGINEER!!!", for the amount of people coming up to me to arrange meetings/finding someone. Granted that my desk was near the entrance door; but, cmon!

The funny thing is that I am not bothered by the gender gap, It's just that other people notice it more.

Having said that, I dont think professors choose us based on our gender. We need to believe in that. If we start to believe in otherwise, subconsciously, we'll expect ourselves to perform worse than those guys. I think science should not be evaluated based on gender. I hope it stays that way forever.

Ah i think what you don't see( no offense to any of you girls on this forum) is that unlike open-minded people like you, there are a large number of girls out there who are interested in computer science, attend one or two classes find not too many other girls around(hey i didnt say girls shouldnt be in cs. its just a 'thing' that most girls dont like cs) and get discouraged and leave for something else.

[frenzydude]

Ah i think what you don't see( no offense to any of you girls on this forum) is that unlike open-minded people like you, there are a large number of girls out there who are interested in computer science, attend one or two classes find not too many other girls around(hey i didnt say girls shouldnt be in cs. its just a 'thing' that most girls dont like cs) and get discouraged and leave for something else.

Especially in developing countries, it maybe very difficult for a girl's family to support her decision for higher studies too. I am sure they were just trying to make you comfortable on visit day.

[starmaker]

I couldn't really read all that (I feel there were some moderated comments? because otherwise there was only one comment I felt was relevant, maybe 2).

That being said I am going to a Grace Hopper regional to present my poster, but I am a lot more excited to be participating in an actual CS conference than about the fact that it's a woman dedicated conference... And Grace Hopper (the main conference) is something I REALLY want to attend (because of the prestige and of the "fun" in it -- I've been told it's a lot of fun)!

Yes, Grace Hopper is a huge amount of fun, and I've presented a poster there before, and it was great!

That being said... When I was growing up I used to be one of the few people in my class genuinely interested in CS. My high-school was a CS high school (not in the States), but we did have a female-to-male ratio of 50/50. There was no special treatment, no awkwardness about being female, not even a mention of "oh, you're a girl, you shouldn't do that!" So it never even crossed my mind that I couldn't do something! Why do you guys here in the states keep reminding girls that they're "not supposed to" like CS, and that if they do, they are such a rarity that there need to be women mentors, women-only conferences, women scholarships

I think you're misunderstanding the direction of causality here. The reason that there are women's organizations and things like that in CS in the US is because there aren't a lot of women in the field, not the other way around. Back in the 1950s or so when CS was a low-prestige field, there were many women working in it. As it gained prestige, the men came in, and the women got pushed to the side, because it was still a time when there was a lot of institutionalized discrimination against women in the US. And this society has a long and sad history of assuming that science and technology are not for women, that predates CS as a field.

Unfortunately, there is still prejudice and discrimination against women in CS in the US. It does not happen everywhere, and it does not happen to the same degree everywhere, but it does exist. If you have not experienced this, you are fortunate. I have mostly been fortunate, but I did experience a case of a startup owner trying to trade sex for a job offer, a handful of openly prejudiced peers when I was a kid, and one openly prejudiced science teacher. I have friends who have been sexually harassed at their workplaces and at conferences, and who have been victims of pay discrimination. I met a couple of grad students at Grace Hopper who were told that they would lose their funding if they became pregnant. It happens.

The point of women's groups, women's conferences, etc, is to give women a forum to connect with each other, feel like they aren't the only one in the same situation, maybe even discuss strategies for how to respond to sexist behavior. Sadly, some girls in the US grow up being told that science and engineering are not for women, and so going to a conference full of women scientists as an undergraduate, or being part of a schoolwide group of women in CS, can be a huge growth experience for them, prove to them that the crap that people told them wasn't true. Some of those women's groups do outreach with younger girls, to make sure that they never internalize those bad messages to begin with. Some of them help recruit freshman women - you may have known that you wanted to do CS when you arrived at college, but some girls who would like and be good at it never considered it before.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about a school emphasizing its women in CS groups. Most likely, they are trying to say that their department is a welcoming place for women. Yes, that shouldn't need to be said, you should be able to take it for granted that every program is welcoming to women, but unfortunately it's not true.

Don't worry about being good. If you weren't good, they wouldn't have admitted you. They aren't going to admit students who they think will fail or go on to represent the school poorly. The profs don't want students who will be a burden rather than an asset in the lab. The point is that now that you're admitted, they want you to choose them, because you're good. So they are trying to promote their strengths to you, including being women-friendly.

[csKid]

Developing countries have a lot of women, atleast in numbers who are motivated to take up higher education and also parents who support them. I'm from a developing country and my mom is an engineer, graduated in 1980. She is working and has a lot of women colleagues from her batch. I see a lot of women from my country taking up higher education. We cannot consider excess of population and make such statements, considering it requires a lot of motivation and support from family even for a candidate from developed country.

Especially in developing countries, it maybe very difficult for a girl's family to support her decision for higher studies too. I am sure they were just trying to make you comfortable on visit day.

Edited April 6, 2011 by rejectMeNot