2009 Application: Religion-Theology-Philosophy of Religion

[demondeac]

So it's that time of year again.....Most applications go live September 1!

So time to:

1. Cue the Rocky Music...because the odds are against us

Rocky Theme File: http://www.geocities.com/vienna/strasse/5736/rocky.mid (did you think I was kidding?)

2. Sell your soul (or at least your paycheck) to ETS, the Postal Service, and well, every program that offers a PhD anything close to your interests, even if it's a PhD in the sixteenth-century reception of subversively eroticized wisdom literature.

3. And wait through an agonizingly long period where people who are paid to think about things take quite a bit of time to think about things related to your-- and 300 other people's-- applications.

Best of luck to all!

Maybe we should start off with the preliminary stuff:

1. Where are you definitely applying / not applying?

2. What discipline(s)? (Religion, Theology, PR)

3. What did you learn from the last round?

[Philmajor]

Demondeac,

What I learned from a successful admission last cycle - don't give up and try to stay calm once the application submissions are complete. Keep in mind that for the most part the entire process is a crap shoot and even though you may have outstanding creditials you could be rejected. Be sure to read through the posts from last years application process - you'll find it to be very interesting.

Good luck and keep posting!

[demondeac]

The night I discovered gradcafe I read through all of last year's religion application posts...it was like 2:30am before I got finished. Though I am a little anxious I'm certainly a little more reasonable with my expectations...

Philmajor, how's Chicago been? It's certainly one of the programs in which I am interested in, though one thing I learned from the forums is that everyone seems to love/hate Chicago, kind of like the hot girl (and/or guy) that everyone wants to ask out but they got rejected. I'd love to hear your experience.

[impetri]

1. Where are you definitely applying / not applying?

I'm going to definitely apply:

Harvard

Johns Hopkins

Berkeley

U Wisc. Madison

Catholic University of America

Brandeis

M.T.S. Harvard Div (only because they have all my materials on file from the last round, and I just have to send three more things and my app will be complete)

Not entirely sure (I plan on putting a lot of energy into the above applications, so I don't know if I"ll have time for the following):

U Mich

U Toronto

NYU

2. What discipline(s)? (Religion, Theology, PR)

PhD - Hebrew Bible, with an emphasis on textual criticism and Northwest Semitic languages

Secondary interests: Afro-Asiatic Semitic languages and morphology, Northwest Semitic epigraphy

3. What did you learn from the last round?

1) Nothing is guaranteed - have a back up plan.

2) You can always make yourself competitive in some way - don't stress yourself out that you can't do everything.

3) GPA / GRE won't get you in - invest on your personal statement.

[demondeac]

Impetri,

I share your affinity for a large number of applications. My current interests are somewhere between theology and philosophy of religion, a kind of philosophical theology that uses continental philosophy as an important resource for informing the task of theology. So here's my 'short' list:

UChicago (theology or PR)

BU (theology or PR)

BC (philosophy

Harvard (ThD)

UVA (Religion)

Emory (Theology)

Chicago Theological Seminary (theology)

Brown (religion)

and likely a few others to round it out...

It sounds like Harvard might be a good spot for you (Levenson rocks)...I think Hopkins focuses more on Near Eastern literature and myth, an OT prof of mine went there and that is his primary focus...hope your Ugaritic is tip top

[impetri]

Oddly, I didn't consider seven programs to be a "big" list.

Your programs seem to be a nice fit for what you want to study. I don't envy you though -- theology is a bit more competitive (I think) than esoteric language study. U Chicago would be a dream for you, I think, but insane to get into. What is your background, if you don't mind me asking?

Sadly, I don't have Ugaritic yet. I'm adding Akkadian this fall though...

[demondeac]

I'm working on an M.A. in philosophy at South Carolina, which is a mainly analytic program but has a few continental faculty. Good experience nonetheless. I just finished an MDiv at Wake Forest University Divinity School, where I did all my electives in theology. I received a BBA from Mercer University (liberal arts school in ga) in business and Christianity (just what they call the Religion dept). Chicago is certainly high on my list, but I need to figure out which pigeon-hole that I need to hop in (either theology or philosophy of religion...how dare they make me pick! I'm special).

As for Ugaritic, I'm pretty sure it's nearly identical to Hebrew but with different characters...you should be able to put that on your CV after about a weekend

[impetri]

That's interesting that you have an M.Div and an MA. I've noticed that getting two MAs is quickly becoming the norm.

Sure, I'll add Ugaritic after a weekend's study, Sanskirt after looking it over for a day, and heck, I'll figure out Cypro-Minoan before school starts in September.

[achowa00]

Hello all,

Not sure if this board is active as most of the posts seem older, but I discovered this forum last week after taking the GRE and feeling hugely disappointed with my verbal score. I started Googling my score associated with "PhD in religion" and bam! I spent the better part of the next hour perusing last year's admissions results, learning a lot but also feeling extremely humbled. And yet, I guess I'm still planning on throwing my hat into the ring. I finished my MDiv. Since graduating, I've been working in Campus Ministry in Providence. GRE last week was 630 Verbal, 710 Quant, and TBD on Writing. Input welcome--do I need to retake in Oct/Nov to up that verbal? GPA from Vandy is over 3.8, 3.5 or so from undergrad.

Here's my nearly-final list for applications this year:

Harvard (Religion Gender Culture)

Boston College (Theological Ethics)

Yale (Theology)

Fordham (Theology)

Union / Columbia (Joint Program)

Drew (Religion & Society)

Chicago (Ethics)

Duke (Ethics)

GTU (actually thinking this one is too far away and random--probably getting crossed off the list)

This will be my first try so I'm more than open to advice and suggestions--do I need more/fewer schools? More safety options? Any programs I might not know about that I should look into?

Thanks in advance!

[demondeac]

My guess is it is still early for the board to be really active...most people put off applications until November (I know I did last time, hence my starting over the summer). I had pretty much the same thing happen to me with my GRE score; I had heard it was just used as a "cut-off" so I didn't study too incredibly hard. After reading most posts on this board (especially last year's religion board) signed up to take the GRE again in October. From what I could glean, the GRE is used as a cutoff, but also a way of eliminating candidates if the committee is having difficulty paring down the list of comparable students. Additionally, sometimes GRE scores are used to rank financial aid (after the accept a group), giving the most money to the highest scorers and no funding to the lowest scorers. All the more reason to score as highly as possible.

As far as the schools to which you are applying, they look like good choices (Yale and Duke as long as you find postliberals and Hauerwausians germane to your studies, if not run like the dickens). Union has fallen on hard economic times, especially sad for being the flagship of liberal academic studies (many of my Div School profs were from Union). Funding may not be as forthcoming, but it is historically a great place to study (though I don't know whom is there now). GTU is not a bad pick; they have a great deal of interdisciplinary focus and depth in all the traditional disciplines. I have a few friends from Div School studying there and they seem to like it, I think the only downside (yet again) is lack of funding. I've heard it's not too difficult to get into, but they don't fund very many (if any!) candidates. I am applying to many of the same schools, though most in a different sub-discipline, so hopefully we won't be competing on too many programs . I am applying to the Vandy theology program (which you certainly have a leg-up on being a graduate), though I would like to know your thoughts on the theology program there. I like John Thatamanil's work (esp. on Tillich and process theology), and have read a little of Armour, but the program doesn't seem as deep without all the recently retired heavyweights (Hodgson, MacFague). Still a good place to study?

[achowa00]

demondeac,

Thanks for the advice--I'm going to wait on my writing scores and if they're not super fantastic, I guess I'll be back at the GRE at the end of next month. Grrr.

I have heard some of the same about Union and GTU and unfortunately, I really can't go back to school unless I get funding as I'm already neck deep in student loan debt and realize that my salary in the first few years of teaching won't be that much more than I make in Campus Ministry. So, good to know and be prepared about funding.

As for your list, who are you interested in working with at Brown? It's a fascinating place and I've loved working here thus far. We are still working at improving ties between the Chaplains' Office and the the Department of Relgious Studies, but I think we're getting there. Concerning Vandy, I had a fantastic experience there and truly miss the place. Thatamanil is a wonderful teacher and truly cares about his students as much as his own research--he is invested in them and wants to see them do well, which can be an anomaly. I worked extensively with Armour when she came on board in my last year of the MDiv program and she's truly fantastic. Especially in your case, the way she works to tie together constructive theology and continental philosophy should definitely be a draw to that program. I guess I don't think about McFague or Hodgson as being recently retired as they were both long gone by the time I got there. Their legacy is still felt no doubt, but Meeks has quite a name for himself and DeHart, a Chicago grad, is also up and coming in the field. They also just hired Stacy Floyd-Thomas and her husband, bringing on board one of top womanist theologians in the country. Not to gush, but I really think Vanderbilt will be one of the absolute top theology programs in the coming years. I have to tell you, I have absolutely no leg up in getting in there just by virtue of having attended the Div School. In the last few years, Theology has taken 2 students and in my time, none of them were alums. I think both of them were alums just once in the last 8 years or so, so unfortunately, I don't think it will help me this time around.

[demondeac]

Brown is an interesting place indeed...I was attracted primarily to the program on "Religion and Critical Thought" which seemed a nice fit in the realm somewhere between theology and philosophy of religion. I bought (and will hopefully be able to read) Matthew Bagger's "Religious Experience, Justification, and History" since one of my research interests is in the phenomenology of religious experience (and he has an interesting and somewhat critical thesis of its justification). I couldn't really get a good feel ofthe profs from the website (it's not very informative!), so if you have any experience with them I would love to know the "geist" of the program (I see a little continental philosophical interest, but not much...also I can't get a feel for what theologians might be of interest for faculty).

Best of luck to you...I certainly know the pain of wading through 10+ applications...

[studyordie]

Wow, I've been looking for a sight like this for a long time! So I'm definitely applying to UVA, Chicago, and Fordham and probably Catholic and Nottigham (Ph.D. Systematic Theology or whatever a given program wants to call it). Two questions:

1.My list is small because I read some book on grad school admissions (not specific to religious studies/ theology, etc.) and the guy said to keep the applications uber focused if you want to get in anywhere. My advisor is a Notre Dame Ph.D. and recently told me to definitely put in there, but of their systematic theology faculty Cyril O'Regan seems most exciting to me and I don't want to read Hegel for the next five years of my life (though one or two would be O.K. ). My question is that in reading the posts from last year (which were the most helpful things I've run into in several months of on-line looking) the whole "who have you contacted from our faculty?" (which I interpret as "who are you interested in studying with?") part of the apps did not come up often, have I blown it out of proportion? Should I put in everywhere and anywhere I wouldn't mind studying at, which was my original take on the matter before i read that book? What changed my mind was that the author made a convincing argument that even a less-than-competitive program wants to see applications totally catered to them, complete with faculty contacts and all. Maybe I just email way fewer scholars I've never met than everybody else, who knows (it does make me feel self conscious).

2. Reading last years posts and talking to my proffs has given me a realistic awareness that one of the most important decisions other people will ever make for me can sometimes be an utter crap shoot. Thus, I'd like a nice, well-respected 1 year master's program (which would be in addition to the M.Div. I'm currently wrapping up) to fall back on if I don't get into any Ph.D. programs. Ideally this program would be at a prestigious school (since my current school is not so much) and in a place where my wife could get a public school teaching job to pay for my habit. Chicago has this (I think), maybe I ought to put in for it instead of their Ph.D. This would make me sad, but not as sad as leaving academia would make me were I to come up dry this Spring on acceptances (I love school as much as I hate real jobs). Are there any other such 1 year programs I don't know about?

[demondeac]

I was under the impression that the Chicago program (the AM I believe) is two years in duration, as are most Masters programs. Whether or not having the AM from Chicago helps one to move into the PhD is up for dispute; this year both spots in Philosophy of Religion were filled by students from the AM program, though they claim that this has not always been the case. If you are looking to do another masters, I would suggest doing a Masters in Philosophy (which I am currently completing after an MDiv). In my opinion what separates the really exceptional theologians is their mastery of philosophy in dialogue with their theology, and on the converse there are those people who rattle off "postmodernism" and "deconstructionism" which they learned in a ministry course. So if you have to do another masters, that's a good way to go.

As for application numbers, I am of the "shotgun approach" persuasion. While it is best to cater applications to specific programs, the odds are against being accepted even with the most careful treatment at any program. But it could go either way, so maybe your time is better spent in only a few applications. On a side note, who do you want to work with at UVA or Chicago?

[studyordie]

That's interesting information regarding Chicago, the guy I know that did a one year MA there is in church history, and that was a few years ago now. I also found out today that Duke has a Master's through the religion department that their website says can be completed in one year. I definitely see your point with the philosophy master's, it sounds appealing to be more fully conversant in contemporary philosophical conversations before going on to the next level, but I'd also like to get a job (read, my wife would like me to get a job) before I'm 40.

I heartily agree that the "postmodernism" discussed in many practical ministry courses is nauseatingly inane, that segment of my M.Div. education is the weak spot in my current program's curriculum, and I would argue they're usually describing more of an ultra-modernism than anything else (and even then it's not described very well).

UVA has Kevin Hart. He publishes a good deal in the field I'd like to move into (philisophical theology). They also have a good Patristics faculty and one of their NT guys told my buddy they are looking for somebody with a big name to replace R.L. Wilken, who has recently retired (or will soon retire, not sure which). Chicago has Marion, who would be interesting to work under when he's there and not in Paris, plus they seem intent on their students getting out into the rest of the University, and then it just gets insanely awesome (the head of their Germanic Studies department published a book with Zizek and they have some good Heidegger people in the Philosophy dept.). I actually went to UVA a few weeks back to hear Marion give a lecture there (at Hart's invitation after I emailed him to introduce myself). Marion seemed really friendly and he talked for a long time to many students after the lecture, Hart was very busy playing host so I didn't get to talk to him that much. I was a bit disappointed he never offered an office appt. but that's life.

After reading more of last year's conversation I am realizing just how good your idea of a second master's in philosophy is. Are there any philosophy MA's w/ a good continental emphasis that are known to give full-tuition scholarships if they want somebody? (I know that's rarer at the MA level than at the Ph.D. level). Given that I have a family it would be hard to justify another degree that's not terminal, but I could pull it off if I didn't have to drop any $ for tuition. I did well on the GRE's. I don't think that will get me in to a Ph.D. program, but I imagine it could do a lot to get me into an MA program, since "fit" wouldn't be as important there.

[ModusTollens]

Studyordie-

You asked:

After reading more of last year's conversation I am realizing just how good your idea of a second master's in philosophy is. Are there any philosophy MA's w/ a good continental emphasis that are known to give full-tuition scholarships if they want somebody? (I know that's rarer at the MA level than at the Ph.D. level).

Most Terminal MA's offer funding. Some of the top programs are listed at http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/maprog.asp (however, Leiter's rankings of philosophy have some huge problems. Most "Continental" programs don't even get evaluated... but I can go on all day, so I'll save that for another post).

If you want a program to prepare you for Continental Philosophy, Georgia State would be the no-brainer. They have a good reputation with people doing work in the History of Philosophy/Continental Philosophy, and the last I heard, they offer funded students $15,000. I am at Northern Illinois University, and we have Theodore Kisiel (he's a giant in the Heidegger-world). However, he retired last year, so he only teaches on and off. You may also want to apply to Toronto. They have a funded, 1-year MA program (they turned me down last year). If you have money that you don't know how to spend, you might want to look at University College, Dublin.

[Jufarius87]

Definately applying to...

Harvard Divinity (M.Div)

Yale Divinity (M.Div)

Duke Divinity (M.Div)

American U in Cairo (M.A Middle East Studies)

Maybe applying to....

Northeastern Seminary (M.Div)

Jerusalem University College (M.A Middle Eastern Cultures and Religions)

University of Glasgow (M.Litt War Studies)

King's College London (M.A War Studies)

Christ Church Oxford (M.St Jewish Studies/M.Phil Middle East Studies)

The ultimate goal is ordination then military (few years in a combat job then chaplaincy).

Academic Interests consist primarily of Political Theology and diplomatic relations between nations of different Abrahamic faiths, church history (especially interested in the schisms which created denominations), Comparitive Theology between Christianity and Judaism. While I realize I pretty much have to do the M.Div at some point, the other programs seem complimentary given my interests.

GPA 3.812/4.0

PBK, summa all those nicities.

ECs: elected church positions, elected spots in school clubs,

No real work exp beyond a govt internship i did one summer

No language background

I'll tell you how it goes, although most of you guys seem a step ahead in that you are already looking toward Ph.Ds.....

Best of luck!

[demondeac]

If you want a program to prepare you for Continental Philosophy, Georgia State would be the no-brainer. They have a good reputation with people doing work in the History of Philosophy/Continental Philosophy, and the last I heard, they offer funded students $15,000.

I second Georgia State. One of my good friends and an acquaintance did their M.A.s in philosophy there, both "TAed and got paid", and loved the program. One of them is in Chapel Hill's PhD program now, which speaks well of their preparation. Not too many continental Masters programs (not sure if DePaul or Fordham have MAs, though they have strong continental programs), but most Master's programs involve funding if you are offered a TA position (like my current program). And this of course brings the fun of teaching Hume to kids that were in high school only a few months before .

[studyordie]

Regarding philosophy I have so much more to learn that it's hard to get my bearings in the field, however, from where I am it seems Georgia St. is big on German philosophy whereas (and I don't think I mentioned this) I'd like to become conversant in contemporary French philosophy (phenomenology, immanence vs. transcendence in ontological debates, the gift, etc. ...). Please correct me if I'm wrong. To that end I've come to be interested in Memphis, Kent St., and Duquesne. American looks less interesting but would be geographically convenient. At the same time, entry into an actual Ph.D. program would at least allow my wife a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel so I'm plugging away at the apps on my list and have added Vandy. Vandy has absolutely the most considerate application arrangement I've run into, it is much appreciated.

If I may wine for one moment, it appears UVA does not send out its recommendation emails until you submit the on-line app. What idiot thought that up?

[demondeac]

Regarding philosophy I have so much more to learn that it's hard to get my bearings in the field, however, from where I am it seems Georgia St. is big on German philosophy whereas (and I don't think I mentioned this) I'd like to become conversant in contemporary French philosophy (phenomenology, immanence vs. transcendence in ontological debates, the gift, etc. ...).

There is a little more "balance" with analytic interests at GA st, so you're probably right on that account. I was never a big fan of analytic either. As for continental MA programs, off the top of my head are Loyola Chicago, Depaul, and Fordham. All have strong interest in more French continental philosophy, but I understand the drive to just want to get the PhD done and over with. After an MDiv and now an MA in philosophy, it's getting a bit old, though there is no substitute for having philosophical foundations.

On a broader note, applications are coming along: I've settled in at a modest 12 applications and have proverbially bit off more than I can chew. I was able to schmooze a little at the American Academy of Religion meeting in Chicago, which was quite a bit of fun. Now begins the litany of emails to professors that I wasn't able to glad-hand in person. I never thought it would take so long to compose a simple, 10 sentence email, but it takes forever. Also got back my retaken GRE scores, and I'm pretty happy (V 670 95%, Q750 89%, AW 6.0 97%) except for those engineers and science types who ruin the Quant percentile rank for the rest of us.

[academiccricket]

This is "impetri" from earlier posts (PhD applicant in Hebrew Bible). I just apparently can't access my previous information. I'm having a bit of a melt-down, freak-out week. I'm hoping to send the majority of my applications out next week, with a Dec. 15th deadline, and am sending 1 out tomorrow.

I'm feeling incredibly discouraged as of late. Anyone else think that there is nothing like applying to top programs to make them feel insignificant and incompetent?

I'm disappointed in my GRE score, because I can't afford to take it again (I'm paying back student loans plus rent, all on a part-time job salary to have time to dedicate to Akkadian). Despite studying for two years and scoring significantly higher on practice exams, I received quite a mediocre score that I'm not happy with (590 v. 600 q. and 4.5. AW). I really thought I'd crack 650 v. (I was practice testing at 700+) and get at least a 5.5. AW (I taught English 101 at a liberal arts college). But I'm forging ahead through the app process anyway, perhaps in sheer stupidity at this point.

I'm auditing Akkadian at my dream school, and it is just me and one other kid in the class. I show up every day, do all the homework, quizzes, tests, in-class participation--despite the fact that I'm not receiving a grade (officially). I'm not doing as well as I thought I would (despite massive studying...), though by no means failing. I was just hoping to make a great impression, and again feel like my performance is average at best. I'm working with the TA outside of class, practicing cuneiform in another book, etc. I asked my professor to write me a LOR for some schools (top-10 in the field), and he agreed, I'm just nervous about what he is going to say, but I imagine something like "she's excited about the material, but she's not naturally gifted in this area."

I have a 2.72 uGPA and a 3.7 gGPA, and feel like there are too many "discrepancies" in my application to even be considered. If my uGPA were low and I had a high GRE, or vice versa, it would be different--but it isn't. I have a feeling that the schools will see the ugrad B- average and a composite GRE of 1190, and throw it out the window.

The shining hope I have is an AMAZING LOR, from someone who is incredibly well-respected in the field, and has worked with my dream dept. department for AGES. I also might be auditing a class with the chair of the department next term. And I'm on good terms with the department office staff, except I won their money in a poker game once.

Any advice for staying calm and feeling competent, despite feeling lackluster and all hope is lost? Sorry about being whiny. I just needed to vent to an audience who would understand what this stress does to people.

I play Kanye's "Stronger" about a billion times. That's really all that helps at this point.

[jonhenry]

I have a quick question about asking a prof for a recommendation when you've only been studying with them for a couple of months . . . like, do they already know what to say, or should I give them some ideas? It's been a very good semester, but it just seems so short.

I just got my GRE analytical in the mail today: got a 6! The others were just OK, or less (Q:580; V:730). I'm taking 2 courses in my field from UPENN. Have a 3.9 grad GPA, and a 2.35 uGPA. I'm presenting and chairing at SBL this year, which should count for something.

This year I plan to apply to UMich, Duke, UVA, UPENN, and may wax bold and apply to Yale and Harvard (maybe just to get fancier rejection letterhead for my files). I'm applying for Christianity/Judaism in Antiquity (or NT in institutions with narrower focus).

[demondeac]

I have a quick question about asking a prof for a recommendation when you've only been studying with them for a couple of months . . . like, do they already know what to say, or should I give them some ideas? It's been a very good semester, but it just seems so short.

I don't want to repeat to many posts on the rest of the site, but you should always send your strongest letters, and by that vague term I'm assuming you just have to weigh possible values like quality/quantity of your study with the prof, the prof's overall academic reputation (which you are asking him or her to leverage), and the prof's network of friends and colleagues who may give you a "leg up" on the competition.

Are you interested in Second Temple studies? That's at least what I think of with Judaism and Christianity in antiquity, but we theologues try not to bother ourselves with those trifling textual matters unless it supports what we've already said.

[studyordie]

Two things:

1) Relative to the "who should write for me?" question: 2 months ago I didn't know my thesis advisor very well (he's retired so he doesn't teach, he got in a conversation with me about my thesis one day and offered to oversee it). I asked a younger ANE proff to write for me because we know each other pretty well, he just finished at Harvard three or four years back so his head is still "in the game" so to speak, and he said a vague letter from my thesis advisor who is known in the field would be far better than a more specific letter from him, since he's in a different field and, more importantly, no one's heard of him. Also, my buddy had an interview with an experienced proff at a top program earlier this fall and was told that they wanted letters from people they knew. Sounds like a letter from a big name saying you've been a good student for two months is the way to go.

2) I just turned in my first app (UVA)! I'm sure some of you are way ahead of me here, and obviously there's more to the process than this, but I've been working so long on this stuff it feels incredible to actually have a little piece of the puzzle done. I also realized my first mistakes in this process, but currently the relief is outweighing the horror, so I'm going to go with it.

Also a big congrats to deamondeac on the GRE scores, and to academiccricket: your LOR is huge, in some programs that probably goes further than an GRE score could ever take you.

[studyordie]

I'm getting ready for Vandy and Chicago on the 15th and am really having second thoughts on Vandy. My original inspiration in applying there is that they have a few people who sound conversant in psychoanalytic critiques of culture (Volney Gay and a Lit Crit guy who's name I can't remember). Problem is, I'm interested in that stuff in so far as it feeds into a constructive Christian theology, and I'm not so sure that they are. I can't/don't want to obfuscate that point in my application. I feel bad saying this (since it could be taken to support the imposition of the application fees I despise) but at this point I would consider not completing my application to Vandy if they had a fee. Since they don't, however, and I've already sent the other stuff in and made people write recs for me, I'm going to go through with it.