timuralp Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 In many cases you could be considered an accessory, or could be convicted of aiding and abetting or obstruction of justice. Not to disagree, but the prosecution has to prove your knowledge of the incident, which is often quite a difficult task, unless you do something stupid like have a record of the conversation... so, conviction becomes difficult, not to say that hit and runs or scams shouldn't be reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhukora Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Not to disagree, but the prosecution has to prove your knowledge of the incident, which is often quite a difficult task, unless you do something stupid like have a record of the conversation... so, conviction becomes difficult, not to say that hit and runs or scams shouldn't be reported. Well sure, conviction is pretty difficult. I'm sure there are plenty of people who get away with that kind of stuff every day. My point was just that if your morals/ethics compass is working properly, you wouldn't shy from reporting a friend for running a scam just because you don't want to upset them, and you shouldn't shy from reporting ethically wrong and probably criminal behavior in this case either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polumetis23 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Highfructose is a sociopath and sounds like a hip-hop poser to boot. He should "hustle" his ass out of academia posthaste. How can you call somebody a "smug fuck" and claim you didn't mean to be "unpleasant"? And after a couple of posters object, he takes it all back as if he didn't mean it. What a coward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnk0001 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It would seem wrong to not do something about this situation, but then I can't help but feel sorry in a sense that when this girl is 'punished' (however that may be) it will be academic career ending. Did she seem like someone who deserved that in the time you spent with her? I mean I know it's pretty ridiculous what she did, but I suppose desperation can lead people to do weird things. All around just kind of sad, sorry you ended up with that burden of knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinyboss Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 It would seem wrong to not do something about this situation, but then I can't help but feel sorry in a sense that when this girl is 'punished' (however that may be) it will be academic career ending. Did she seem like someone who deserved that in the time you spent with her? I mean I know it's pretty ridiculous what she did, but I suppose desperation can lead people to do weird things. All around just kind of sad, sorry you ended up with that burden of knowledge. Are you serious? She knew it was wrong, and she did it anyway. How could she not deserve the consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonights Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Yes. Yes, someone who forges important academic credentials absolutely deserves to have their academic career be aborted immediately. This person is competing for spots with the rest of us - the rest of us who came by our recommendations honestly and often with difficulty. How is that fair? How can we be assured that she will honestly come by her research and not forge it or plagiarize it from someone else? We can't be assured, because she's a dishonest poltroon who isn't invested in the spirit of academia and doesn't belong there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domanda Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 this girl must be REALLY socially awkward to tell you about what she did. unbelievable. the girl can't save her own life by shutting up....if i were you i'll just tell everyone who knows her for all i care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnk0001 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I just personally would handle the situation differently than some have suggested, perhaps by going to her and telling her that I would alert the dean, school etc, if she didn't withdraw from this round of applications, or at least have spoken to her about it before going forward with anything. It's a big responsibility to carry the burden of knowledge that a wrong has been done, but I would also find it personally hard to shoulder the burden of having so negatively impacted someone's life without having at least tried another approach, even if they did bring it on themselves....but I'm a big softy and work with troubled kids so that's just my take I suppose. cch604 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I think a lot of the heated debate on this forum comes from the fact that, to some extent, we are sharing this burden along with the OP! The OP is the one who had to decide to act or not, but somewhere out there that girl's application is being held up to some of ours. I think if the OP had decided to sit on the information or just let it go, people on this forum would have been upset, and rightfully so. We should be afraid of these sorts of actions: as many have articulated, dishonesty can threaten the reputation of schools (either the institution she came from, the institution that accepts her, or the institution that hires her), subvert the admissions process, and damage fields, if she were to publish and her career (and with it, her associated students!) later crumbled. We can't actually hang alone in the world of academia. The success of institutions, projects, and disciplines relies on more than individual actors. We just have to trust that people that have information of major wrongdoing will take appropriate action to keep those issues from doing real damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragynally Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Am I the only one who thinks the girl could be full of it? You all should have WAY more faith in yourselves than this. I am way more afraid of the person w/ the great grades and real LORs than some liar. If she did this she WILL get caught. And I feel as though the OP has no faith in anyone in the system. Do we all believe that admission committees and profs are so stupid as to believe that these fakes- that probably sound like one person wrote all of them- are real? What she did- IF she did it- is not right. However everyone seems to think that this girl is a viable threat...YOU ARE ALL BETTER THAN HER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterpat Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 A mod should lock this thread. The debate is long over. People are getting upset for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragynally Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 A mod should lock this thread. The debate is long over. People are getting upset for no reason. Misterpat is right. I shouldn't have said anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tritonetelephone Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Am I the only one who thinks the girl could be full of it? No, you're not. I wasn't going to say it - and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings if I'm wrong - but I wouldn't be too surprised if the OP is not being truthful. Really, think about how much someone would have to go through to forge their LOR's and feel like they'd get away with it (fake email addresses, IP addresses, writing styles, signatures, etc.). That, combined with the department head not taking it seriously... it just doesn't seem very plausible to me. If I were considering forging my own LOR's, I might think it was a good idea to start a thread like this and hear everyone explain why it may or may not be a good idea. Fortunately, my own social phobia has nothing to do with my sense of right and wrong. Like I said, apologies all around if I'm wrong. If it is true, the OP did the right thing by reporting her. I'm just glad I'm in a field where the unethical a$$holes margin is pretty slim - definitely wouldn't want to work with some particular respondents to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedjj Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It would be funny if the girl did in fact receive recs from profs and told you she wrote it just to play on you lol One should never trust what people say;p It is really hard to believe she would do it and then told you so. I think you should not jump into conclusions and should not accuse her of forgery (as your topic is titled) - this should be decided by authorities. Calling schools and telling them she forged recs is a bad way - if it happens she just joked then you may be in trouble. You did not see her forge the letter - all you know is what she told you and she may as well be making it up (no idea why would she do so, stress maybe?). Nevertheless, there is a probability she did forge it so you could talk to authorities (be it chairman or someone else) and tell that person there is a possibility of forgery and then explain what happened and let them decide if it's just a joke she played on you:P Just be sure to word it carefully. And don't get me wrong - I am 100% against people who cheat but I also am careful in interpreting stuff;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinyboss Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Calling schools and telling them she forged recs is a bad way - if it happens she just joked then you may be in trouble. How do you figure? Someone tells me they committed a crime (yes, forgery is not just academic dishonesty, it's a crime). I report the crime. If it urns out the person lied...how is that conceivably my fault? That just doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4ever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Being able to form links with other people is critical in academia (I know, I hardly believe that people who live in the library/lab need social skills, but there you go). A fresh faced youngster who has just finished their PhD who can't, say, go to a conference and get other people interested in their work, or who can't convince a publisher to bring out their thesis in book form, or who can't negotiate with other faculty members about how a department is run... (I could go on...) Someone like this is not going to do well in future, so you should give her the heads up before she is in too deep. Remember, for your peace of mind, that in the unlikely event that this girl gets into a school that you don't, it is highly unlikely that she took the place that would have been yours. There is a chance, but it's a slim one, not worht bothering about. I hope that when I see people listing 'Accepted' for programs I applied for, I'm not going to curse those people for stealing my luck. And if I knew they had cheated, I wouldn't waste my time cursing them. I think going to the Department Head was the best thing to do - leave it in his hands. If he thinks nothing should be done then ask his reasoning. If it is good, then leave it at that. One more thing. Show this girl what those on this thread think of her - it is important she knows how seriously her actions are taken. This is not just a little white lie she told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedjj Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 How do you figure? Someone tells me they committed a crime (yes, forgery is not just academic dishonesty, it's a crime). I report the crime. If it urns out the person lied...how is that conceivably my fault? That just doesn't make any sense. But what if she did not commit the crime? You have no way of knowing. All you can say is that the person told you she committed a crime, not that she did it. Schools may think you are just trying to eliminate competition:p I am not against calling - but what I meant is that calling a school and saying "she forged her recs" without explanation is bad:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinyboss Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 But what if she did not commit the crime? You have no way of knowing. All you can say is that the person told you she committed a crime, not that she did it. Schools may think you are just trying to eliminate competition:p I am not against calling - but what I meant is that calling a school and saying "she forged her recs" without explanation is bad:P You're splitting some mighty fine hairs here. In practice, as soon as you report something like this, you'll be asked, "how do you know?", and then you'll tell them. The distinction you're making is not realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedjj Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Perhaps ) I don't have much experience with such situations:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phonologist Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Let it dieeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenderMediaGrad Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 You have mentioned that it would (naturally) upset you if this girl got accepted to a school that you didn't... however, neither you nor others who have posted have drilled home the point that, if she gets accepted, she is ABSOLUTELY taking SOMEONE's spot. With graduate programs as competitive as they are, there are not enough spots to go around. It would be absolutely despicable if this girl took ANY spot because that would mean one less spot for an honest, deserving and capable student In fact, there is a good chance she could be taking a spot that could otherwise go to one of us here on the fora. And she would likely be accepting a University fellowship or TA-ship as well... again, money that could otherwise go to a deserving student. If I were in your situation, I would certainly make sure that this information is available to any school that accepted her because it is simply WRONG for her to claim a spot that should go to a truly deserving student. cch604 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanature Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Wow this is just astounding. I do agree with most here that the fraud/forgery is unacceptable. Addressing this issue is tricky, however. I would agree that - if you have any concern for this girl at all - to first try to talk to HER very thoroughly about what she is doing, and encourage her to take action on her own part (by pulling out of this round of applications, etc). I would try to talk to her (in the least "bullying" way possible) that even if she isn't caught now, her actions could have serious repercussions on her career and it just isn't worth jeopardizing her future. I think this is a very worrying indication about the girl who did this. If she's desperate enough to do this, she must not be thinking clearly about her options... from my experience she seems like a dangerously ungrounded person who feels she has no choice but to risk ruining her life (or at least everything she has worked for). If I were her friend (maybe she considers you one), I would try to help her out of this situation, or at least try to find someone who could help. Instead of falsifying parts of her application she should take a few years to gain work or research experience and form real relationships with her bosses there. Ultimately, however, helping her sort herself out is not your responsibility. As unforgivable as what she did may be, I still feel sorry for her. Sorry you were put in this position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepoorstockinger Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Am I the only one who thinks the girl could be full of it? My reaction is actually that there's a good chance that the OP is being lied to by the alleged cheater. She could have a really dark sense of humour, be a real sociopath, or just be so socially awkward that she'd feel bad admitting that Superstar Faculty Member X had asked her if they could write a reference letter for her. Obviously forging a reference letter is both crooked and insane, but I don't really know if I'd trust this woman if she told me that she forged letters, and if it turns out that she had legit references written and the OP accused her of forging them the OP could be in trouble... What a mess of a situation for everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow#5 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think the proper way to answer any question on ethics is to simultaneously ask: What would Mother Theresa do? and What would Charles Manson do? The answer that seems to fit both questions is the right course of action every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophiebb Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I know this question is way old, but I just couldn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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