Am I going to be competitive anywhere? Sub-3 GPA.

[Elmer_Ellsworth]

Hi all! Long-time lurker, first time poster. I'm wondering if I'm going to be competitive at any grad program worth it's salt with a GPA hovering around 2.65. To make matters worse, it's not as if I majored in a hard science, engineering, or mathematics. (Real majors: Philosophy and Geology.) There's no excuse, other than being in the "wrong" program for me my first year and learning the hard way what it meant to study (after getting through high school *rarely* doing so). I'm most interested in the following programs but please feel free to comment on my chances at grad school at-large (note: I haven't taken the GRE...is it going to be worth my time, anyway?):

Harvard/Yale/Chicago Divinity (M.Div/A.M.)

Brown MPH, M.A. History, Classics, Geology

WashU, A.M. Philosophy

...To name a few.

For what it's worth, I'll list my extracurriculars (broadly speaking):

University Judicial Council

Club Community Service Coordinator (Elected Position)

Active Member of several clubs; award-winning participant of one

Writing Instructor & Tutor (Employed through school)

Part-time employment during academic semesters (15hrs/wk) - my grade trend increases after finding work my second year

Full-time employment during summer months (40hrs/wk)

Writing Samples: I've saved my best writing (where I received at least an A mark) and have made further re-visions.

Letters of Recommendation: Another source of worry, for me. I attend a large state school in the American Southwest and was obviously not a great student (that isn't to say, however, that I was a *bad* student - I was just lazy my first year and improved every semester). Thus, I never became close with any of my professors or instructors. There is one, though, who said I wrote "the best paper of it's kind that I've seen from an undergraduate." Perhaps she's a lock?

I apologize for the verbosity in this first post. I have a lot on my mind, but will any of it matter with such a poor grade-point average?

Thanks in advance! ?

[Eigen]

It all depends on the school. Many have minimum GPA requirements, usually a 3.0.

Your GPA isn't just below the cutoff either, it's quite a bit below.

That said, you're looking mostly at masters programs and not PhDs, which tend to be less competitive. At this point, I'd say your main issue(s) are that you don't know your GRE scores, you only have one possible letter of recommendation, and you're only applying to top schools. I'd say you have a decent chance for a masters at a mid tier school with excellent letters and really good GRE scores, but I'd be skeptical about the schools you listed with that GPA.

[cunninlynguist]

First, you shouldn't automatically downplay your major - philosophy is difficult and that may warrant some consideration when the adcomms are reviewing your grades. However, as Eigen said, you'll be hard-pressed to defend a 2.65 GPA. For someone in your position, taking the GRE would absolutely be worthwhile. You'll need to perform very well on it to compensate for your GPA and demonstrate, by at least one measure, that you're academically capable of graduate studies. While applicants with GPAs that align closely to program averages won't need spectacular GRE scores, you certainly will.

Unfortunately, even if you do secure 2 additional LORs that are fantastic and score highly on the GRE, I doubt you'll be a serious candidate at the schools you listed. Extracurriculars don't matter too much in grad school admissions, so while you offer a fair amount of them, it likely won't affect your chances.

I'd do what Eigen suggested: aim for mid-tier schools. It appears that the Divinity programs at Harvard and Yale don't emphasize GPA and GRE to a huge extent, but it still may be an insurmountable hurdle. If you wish, you can certainly apply to a couple "reach" schools; that's contingent on applying to mid-tier ones that offer a much higher chance of admission, though.

[Mal83]

Another way to overcome a low GPA is through relevant work experience, if you have a few years in a related field that could offset a low GPA and you'd also be able to get a recommendation letter from your boss. But if the work that you've done is unrelated to your MA of choice then you might want to consider taking a few classes as a non-degree student. I'm not sure how many you'd need but that's a very good way to display commitment and academic ability to admissions committees. This will also give you a chance at very good recommendation letters. Even if you get a perfect score on the GRE, ad comms will see that you're smart but wonder if you're lazy, you really don't want that word attached to you. You could just for your own peace of mind email the admissions offices of the schools you mentioned and ask if it's possible to overcome a 2.65 GPA. Obviously they can't get too specific without a complete application in front of them, but they might just say that it's highly unlikely and really that would be all that you need to know before getting too attached. I hope it doesn't turn out like that, and you never know, it could be possible, especially if you're willing to hold off applying for a bit in order take some classes to get that GPA up. There have been posts around here about people with GPAs just below 3.0 (as in 2.9) have made it in to good programs, but they have other assets to put on their application, like a lot of relevant work experience, high GRE scores, and good letters of rec. My general feeling though is that you're going to have to take some classes to boost your GPA before you can be taken seriously by any admissions committee. If you perform very well on the GRE it could be worth it do a trial run while taking classes, apply to a non top school and see what happens, do your best on the application but try not to get emotionally attached to the idea of acceptance. Should you get rejected you'd be able to contact admissions for feedback. And this isn't meant to be discouraging, it's just a few things that you can do to get what you want, might take a little longer to get it, but if you do it well, you'll get there.

[starmaker]

Last I checked, geology was a science.

I got into MS programs with a 2.5 in my bachelor's degree program. But there was a two-year gap between my obtaining my bachelor's and my starting a master's program. I worked full-time as a junior researcher in my field and took half a dozen non-degree classes.

Minimum GPA requirements aren't always. I know a couple of people who were below the alleged minimum GPA for every program they got into. Part of the issue is whether the graduate school (as opposed to the department) has veto power. Graduate schools seem to be more picky about that kind of thing than departments.

Definitely get a rec from the prof who complimented your paper.

[chaospaladin]

Some graduate programs even PhD do not have hard cut offs for GPA. Some may admit a person with below 3.00 GPA on contingency even giving you full financial funding without the use of loans because they have excess funding. You just have to work hard to find these programs.

[Elmer_Ellsworth]

Last I checked, geology was a science.

I got into MS programs with a 2.5 in my bachelor's degree program. But there was a two-year gap between my obtaining my bachelor's and my starting a master's program. I worked full-time as a junior researcher in my field and took half a dozen non-degree classes.

Minimum GPA requirements aren't always. I know a couple of people who were below the alleged minimum GPA for every program they got into. Part of the issue is whether the graduate school (as opposed to the department) has veto power. Graduate schools seem to be more picky about that kind of thing than departments.

Definitely get a rec from the prof who complimented your paper.

Some graduate programs even PhD do not have hard cut offs for GPA. Some may admit a person with below 3.00 GPA on contingency even giving you full financial funding without the use of loans because they have excess funding. You just have to work hard to find these programs.

Thanks to everyone for the honest advice!

What are the mid-tier programs, would any of you say? Yes, I realize my sights are set (too) high but I named those schools because these are the programs I've heard the most about (friends, etc.).

Starmaker: Heh, well yes but geology isn't physics, we know that - I see your field is CompSci. Which schools accepted you? Thanks.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Elmer_Ellsworth

[aberrant]

I don't know what is M.Div/A.M. but I believe your application depends on other things too - GRE, LOR, SOP, etc. Even though your GPA does below the general requirement (3.0), you can make it up by doing exceptionally well on other parts of your applications. I supposed you'll need research experience if you are getting any doctoral degrees; in other words, it should be difficult for anyone to get into a PhD program without any research experience. Thus, many non-natural/physical science students tend to get a master degree before they apply for PhD program. Work experience can be a good substitution for research experience as long as they are relevant to the program(s) you are interested. You can check US News to get a sense what are the top-tier schools for your program. From there, you should be able to get a sense what are the mid-tier programs. Otherwise, you can ask professors who know well about these doctoral programs - I'm sure they have something to offer. you can also consider asking your home institution's department/program(s)/admission officers/coordinators and see what kind of students would they admit to their phd program(s) and get a general sense how likely it will be. by the way, your junior and senior GPA is a lot more important than your first 2 years' GPA. so if you actually do well in your last 2 years then your situation is still positive.

ps. unlike Eigen, I'm just another guy who is planning to apply graduate school this fall so you can take what I said as a grain of salt. just don't give up and never say never.

Edited July 7, 2011 by aberrant

[cunninlynguist]

by the way, your junior and senior GPA is a lot more important than your first 2 years' GPA. so if you actually do well in your last 2 years then your situation is still positive.

Good observation. I had forgotten that the OP mentioned an upward trend in GPA ("improved every semester"). That could be useful, particularly since you'd be able to convey to adcomms that it reflects your abilities right now.

[starmaker]

Starmaker: Heh, well yes but geology isn't physics, we know that - I see your field is CompSci. Which schools accepted you? Thanks.

Eh, some geology is or uses physics, and physics doesn't get total ownership of the difficulty mantle (nor, for that matter, do STEM fields). Anyway, I got accepted to Tufts and Northeastern (those were the only two places I applied - I wanted a program where part-time students could do a thesis and where it was within commuting distance of my workplace). I'm going for PhD apps this fall; we'll see how I do and how much anyone still cares about my undergrad GPA.

[Kitkat]

These threads might help you out if you haven't seen them already.

http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/2954-sub-30-gpas/

You do have a chance, if you make a very good case for yourself, and I think if you do well on the GRE it could help...... But it might really depend on how focused you are. I would recommend figuring out what you would want to specifically study when you go to grad school, rather then applying to a bunch of different program types, and hope you get in somewhere (you might have already done this, I don't know, but it looks like you are looking at a bunch of different subjects). I only mention this because some other people on the forum have said that one of the things profs and addcomms ask is where else you are applying to. If you list off some schools, and they know their own field, and some of the schools you are applying to don't have/ are weak in that field, then they might question how serious you are, and then not take you. It also depends on where you are applying to. There are some very good lower ranked schools that are not as competitive, that would be more willing to give you a shot. It partially depends on if you can get yourself some other good LOR's on top of the one you look like you already have.

PS geology is a hard science, and especially so if you think physics is, because there is a whole field of geophysics. ;-)

[wtncffts]

Uhh... Why the concern about not majoring in a "hard science" when you're not applying to graduate programs in them? I'd think your major in philosophy would be exactly the background for humanities grad programs of the kind you're looking at: religious studies, philosophy, classics. It's not even like the social sciences, where a quantitative background would certainly help. Please enlighten me if I'm missing something here.

[LCBucky]

For the record, there's a lot more to geology and geophysics then you think (you being a non geology degree holder)

[tt503]

Get in anywhere? Sure, you can get in some places.

Get into the schools you're looking at? A completely different story. You're looking at Ivies and often, even the most competitive applicants get turned down (even if the acceptance rate like at HDS/YDS hovers around 45%).

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I applied to HDS and YDS with a higher ugpa (still a X<3.0) than you (and I worked full time + had a chronic illness), had a masters degree in a relevant field (with a significantly higher GPA), a publication, conference presentation, had 3 ancient languages, two modern ones, taught two undergraduate courses as an adjunct, and had fieldwork experience with one of the schools--this "experience" should overshadow my sub-par GPA from 8 years earlier. Still, I didn't get in. And I applied two years in a row.

YDS told me that for the MAR, they look for candidates with a 3.7+. For the MDiv, it is a bit lower, but you still have to have LOR from a clergy member and have an idea where you want to end up in terms of denomination. Thus, there's a significant difference between doing an MDiv than an MTS, and even more so from getting an MPH or AM in random fields.

Yes, your GRE score will overcome some of your GPA, but more so, you need to focus really on what you want to do with your life. This reads a bit like you're unsure of what you want to study/do and so you've decided to apply to programs that *might* accept you. Essentially, you're setting yourself up for more mediocre grades, because you'll be taking courses just to take them--not passionately spending time in the library soaking up all this stuff that you can't live without.

I can suggest mid-tier programs in religious studies, but I would need more info about what intellectually interests you and what you want to pursue in order to answer that.

P.S. I'm at a different Ivy now and TA. So it can be done, but it takes tenacity, creativity and patience.

Edited December 13, 2011 by tt503