PhD student hanging out with MA students?

[Agradatudent]

if you have a generalized sense of superiority over any people, then I'd call you a racist if said people were a minority.

To be fair, I think if you have that generalized sense you'd be a racist, even if you felt that way towards the majority (in the US, white people). You're still racist, you just are racist against white people, which is very real. IMO, generally this is an overt hate though and not superiority feelings.

[rising_star]

By the same token, I'm assuming all those who frowned upon my question, will, once they become professors, chill out with undergrads and MA students?

Actually, there are some plenty clear rules at my university about graduate student interaction with undergrads and also faculty interaction with undergrads. We are strongly encouraged not to socialize with undergraduates, particularly those whose work we are--or will be--responsible for grading. I do have some friendships with undergraduates through some of the things I do outside of graduate school, but none of them are close friends, probably due to the differences in where we are in life. As a professor, I would have no problem socializing with MA students. In fact, faculty in my department (and discipline) socialize with all graduate students, regardless of whether they are MA or PhD students. They also don't really treat MA students who are not going on to a PhD different from those who are. I see no reason to act differently once I am a professor.

[long_time_lurker]

Squirrel, forget all the vitriol on this thread. I don't agree with your characterization of non-academics as less serious or not belonging in a program, but if you don't feel like you have much in common with them, then indeed you may as well not socialize with them. If you're looking for an academic position it makes more sense for you to socialize with people with similar interests.

[starmaker]

By the same token, I'm assuming all those who frowned upon my question, will, once they become professors, chill out with undergrads and MA students? After all, using the same logic, what distinguishes a fourth-year BA student from a first year MA student?

Why not, if they are people with whom you would enjoy socializing? I don't necessarily expect that to happen much, because people do tend to prefer socializing with those close to their age, and most professors are older than most undergrads. And you do have to be careful about friendships with people that you supervise, whether you're an undergrad TA for an undergrad class, or a tenured professor. That doesn't mean not having those friendships at all - some of them might predate the supervisor/supervisee relationship, for one thing - but you have to be on guard about your professionalism when you're in a professional context. Ultimately, though, if they seem like friend material, whatever your definition of that is, then maybe you should consider a friendship.

Work is not social life. Professional hierarchies don't carry over to social settings. That's why they're professional.

You keep claiming that you don't have anything against master's students in general, that it's just these ones that are the problem, but you also keep making statements (like the one that I quoted) suggesting that you DO think that their status as master's students is itself a barrier, even if you are willing to make the occasional exception (especially for those who want to hang out with the cool kids "superior" PhD students). Your thread title suggests that - it doesn't say something like "Quiet, laid-back student hanging out with partiers," it says "PhD student hanging out with MA students." When you describe offensive behavior, you make a point of saying that an MA student did it. I believe you when you say that you're just looking for friends who are more to your taste, but you do come off as having issues with master's students though the characterizations in your posts. I mean, why was it even necessary to bring up the MA vs PhD thing in order to have this thread? Why couldn't you have just said "I'm looking for friends at my university, but I don't enjoy hanging out with most of the other students in my department because [reasons], and in fact I'm worried that being sucked into their dramas will hurt my graduate career. And we don't have enough interdepartmental events for me to have met students in other departments. I want to have friends in my university community. How can I find potential friends?"

[TheSquirrel]

Actually, there are some plenty clear rules at my university about graduate student interaction with undergrads and also faculty interaction with undergrads. We are strongly encouraged not to socialize with undergraduates, particularly those whose work we are--or will be--responsible for grading. I do have some friendships with undergraduates through some of the things I do outside of graduate school, but none of them are close friends, probably due to the differences in where we are in life. As a professor, I would have no problem socializing with MA students. In fact, faculty in my department (and discipline) socialize with all graduate students, regardless of whether they are MA or PhD students. They also don't really treat MA students who are not going on to a PhD different from those who are. I see no reason to act differently once I am a professor.

OK, this is interesting -- what exactly do you mean by "none of them are close friends, probably due to the differences in where we are in life"?

Also, what exactly do you mean when you use the term "socialization"? Do you mean talking with students in the hallways? Going for coffee or lunch with them? Hanging out in the evenings, over dinner or a beer? I used the word to refer more specifically to social interactions completely outside the work/study environment.

Somehow, I can't see profs doing *that*, based on my experiences at my school. The only time that has happened at my department is when we had a grad wine & cheese, attended by MA and PhD students and faculty. Most of the profs did *not* attend (for the record, most of the faculty at my school are actually fairly young -- in their late 30s / early 40s). Those faculty who did attend only stayed for an hour, and only hung out with other faculty or PhD students. Yes, not with MA students, but with PhD students. We talked a bit about our coursework progress, our research interests, and a few other things. And actually, I've heard faculty talking amongst themselves about when to go for drinks or dinner together, etc. They don't do that with MA students or PhD students. Why? Can you take a wild guess?

Zeemore,

Thank you for the calm and respectful reply.

I don't see how you can compare the professor-student relationship with a doctoral student-MA student relationship.

I'm not sure what you mean -- if degrees are unimportant in social life (as some insisted in this thread), I don't see why it should be different for PhD-MA student relationships compared to professor-student ones. Can you elaborate further on this?

Also, if profs don't socialize with undergrads because they are supposed to maintain a position of authority vis-a-vis their students (and guard against conflict of interest), what about PhD students who TA Masters-level courses? One of the PhD students in my department has been TAing a quantitative research methods course which is required of all MA students in the program. I might also end up TAing a MA course within the next 2 semesters. In such a situation, should I just socialize with the same people whose assignments I'll be grading ?

[wtncffts]

Squirrel, forget all the vitriol on this thread. I don't agree with your characterization of non-academics as less serious or not belonging in a program, but if you don't feel like you have much in common with them, then indeed you may as well not socialize with them. If you're looking for an academic position it makes more sense for you to socialize with people with similar interests.

To what 'vitriol' are you referring? I think the OP and some users used unfair characterizations, and I believe both have apologized. The rest has been, as far as I can see, fair commentary, not 'vitriolic' at all. Noone on this thread has told the OP that he should be forced to socialize with certain people; indeed, almost everyone has made the exact point you make, that if you don't want to hang out with them, by all means don't. Some of us are reacting against the OP's overbroad and generally inaccurate picture of MA students.

I pretty much agree with everything starmaker writes, above.

[Eigen]

I'd been staying out of this thread, but I had a few comments I wanted to make on various portions:

As to the generalizations introduced at the beginning: As a "generalization" they hold fairly true for the programs I'm familiar with. That doesn't mean they hold true for every MS student- some are exceptional, and there are definitely those that rival a lot of the doctoral students here.

But if I were to make general observations on the students from the programs I'm familiar to:

4+1 MS students aren't very distinct from undergraduates- not in the eyes of the faculty, not in the eyes of the other graduate students I know.

Thesis-based MS students hover on the divide between "undergraduate" and "graduate", from what I can see- some socialize primarily with undergraduates, and don't seem to be seen (either by the faculty or other graduate students) as distinct from them as they might. Others take what they do very seriously, and are exceptional students- and everyone I know views them serious, capable graduate students. I'm sure most of you that are posting here find yourself in the latter category, not the former. This, however, is something that I think is much more characteristic of the sciences- MS students and PhD students have vastly different research goals and expectations- research is the primary component of a doctoral students program, but usually not so central for an MS student. In addition, it's not very common to do an MS and then carry on to a PhD.

One of the major rifts that exists for some of the doctoral students in my department and the masters students is that the coursework is separated- there are many "MS" level courses that we cannot get credit for, but that we may TA/grade for. Just as we're discouraged (to some degree) from hanging out too much socially with undergrads (who we may grade/TA/oversee), it can make for awkward social situations.

As to the more recent question of "do professors of differing tiers hang out"- it depends. Generally, there seems to be a divide (at least in larger departments) between tenured and non-tenured faculty- tenured faculty are "discouraged" from too much social interaction with non-tenured faculty, as they may be asked to sit on tenure review committees, etc- and it can be considered a conflict of interest/difficulty if they are too socially involved. I would say in my department the younger faculty interact, and the older faculty interact- but the mixing isn't so apparent.

Different disciplines are, I'm sure, very different- as are different schools. Some have very rigid hierarchies (Undergrad, 4+1 MS, MS, PhD, Post-doc, non-tenured faculty, tenured faculty) and some much less so.

I think you should socialize with whoever you want- but I also think that if you're looking for "generally" the people you will be most likely to form lasting bonds with, you can make generalizations for greater efficiency. I also think the OPs question was fair, especially in wondering if what he saw was specific to the small anecdotal experience he had, or was something more generalizable.

The one other consideration I'll close with is one of time- and this is something I haven't seen brought up yet. It's more typical for PhD students in my program to socialize with other PhD students, because you're forming more "long term" relationships. You're going to be around for 5-7 years, as are they. With MS students, you can put a lot of time into a relationship that is only going to last for a year until they move across the country- and while that doesn't make it "not worth it", it can certainly be a factor to consider.

::edit:: I also wanted to add, for those comparing this to racism- there's a difference between generalizing on a population based on an intrinsic characteristic- race, gender, etc- and generalizing based on someones life choices (degree of education, hobbies, etc). One is something you can't chose, the other is something you chose. As something you have chosen, the latter can be more useful in forming generalizations than the former.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Eigen

[ZeeMore21]

Zeemore,

Thank you for the calm and respectful reply.

I'm not sure what you mean -- if degrees are unimportant in social life (as some insisted in this thread), I don't see why it should be different for PhD-MA student relationships compared to professor-student ones. Can you elaborate further on this?

Also, if profs don't socialize with undergrads because they are supposed to maintain a position of authority vis-a-vis their students (and guard against conflict of interest), what about PhD students who TA Masters-level courses? One of the PhD students in my department has been TAing a quantitative research methods course which is required of all MA students in the program. I might also end up TAing a MA course within the next 2 semesters. In such a situation, should I just socialize with the same people whose assignments I'll be grading ?

Sure I can elaborate on my first response. Usually, doctoral students do not TA or teach MA level courses, which means that there really isn't a professional divide separating doctoral students and MA students. I'm not sure about your department, but as a MA at my old school, I often shared courses with doctoral students and was given the same amount as work as they were by the professor.

Although you are now bringing up the fact that you are interested in pursuing a teaching assistantship where you would be the head of a MA class, you never mentioned this fact in your initial post. You seemed to only have an issue with personality clashes between you and a couple MAs, and you were blaming the attitudes and behavior of these MA students as the reason why you are hesitant to socialize with MAs in general.

Edited July 27, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[Eigen]

Sure I can elaborate on my first response. Usually, doctoral students do not TA or teach MA level courses, which means that there really isn't a professional divide separating doctoral students and MA students. I'm not sure about your department, but as a MA at my old school, I often shared courses with doctoral students and was given the same amount as work as they were by the professor.

Although you are now bringing up the fact that you are interested in pursuing a teaching assistantship where you would be the head of a MA class, you never mentioned this fact in your initial post. You seemed to only have an issue with personality clashes between you and a couple MAs, and you were blaming the attitudes and behavior of these MA students as the reason why you are hesitant to socialize with them.

It's reasonably common in the sciences for PhD students to be TAs for MS students.

Undergraduate classes and Doctoral classes are completely separate for my discipline, while MS students can take a mix of the two (we use a 100-900 class level scale, 100-400 is undergraduate, 700-900 is doctoral, 500-600 are "MS" level courses, often cross-listed with 300-400 levels- doctoral students can't receive credit towards their degrees for anything below 700, with a few notable exceptions).

This is even more common depending on the "type" of MS student- 4+1, thesis option, non-thesis option.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Eigen

[ZeeMore21]

It's reasonably common in the sciences for PhD students to be TAs for MS students.

Undergraduate classes and Doctoral classes are completely separate for my discipline, while MS students can take a mix of the two (we use a 100-900 class level scale, 100-400 is undergraduate, 700-900 is doctoral, 500-600 are "MS" level courses, often cross-listed with 300-400 levels- doctoral students can't receive credit towards their degrees for anything below 700, with a few notable exceptions).

This is even more common depending on the "type" of MS student- 4+1, thesis option, non-thesis option.

Yes, I do understand now that the sciences are probably different when it comes to how rigid the divide is between doctoral students and MA students. Like I said in my last post, if the teaching-assistant goal is the reason why the OP would like to refrain from socializing with a group of MAs (the one's he would be teaching) than I do understand...I have been a TA before while a MA student and definitely made sure to keep my distance from my students. All I am saying is perhaps the OP could have brought this point up before using the personalities and behavior of a couple MA students as the main reason for the OP keeping distance from the majority of MAs in the program.

[jendoly]

It's reasonably common in the sciences for PhD students to be TAs for MS students.

Undergraduate classes and Doctoral classes are completely separate for my discipline, while MS students can take a mix of the two (we use a 100-900 class level scale, 100-400 is undergraduate, 700-900 is doctoral, 500-600 are "MS" level courses, often cross-listed with 300-400 levels- doctoral students can't receive credit towards their degrees for anything below 700, with a few notable exceptions).

This is even more common depending on the "type" of MS student- 4+1, thesis option, non-thesis option.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard of a distinction between MS and PhD level courses. Maybe it's different for engineering - there may be a certain pattern and chronology to when people take certain classes, but I've seen MS students TAing courses that PhD students take and vice versa. It all has to do with who decides to take what when in my department. If such a distinction is made at other schools, I can see where some of this thread's separation between MS and PhD students comes from, but I can also definitely see where some of the disbelief comes from as well. In my experience, PhD students certainly have more life and academic experience in general, but in my lab, we all share the dirty work; we all socialize together at the lab happy hour. We all treat each other with professional and personal respect. I guess I'm lucky to be in the kind of environment where you are judged by the work you put in, regardless of how many years you've been there or what degree you are working towards.

Also, pretty much all our masters students are thesis'd, if not all. That probably makes a big difference.

Edited July 27, 2011 by jendoly

[TheSquirrel]

It's reasonably common in the sciences for PhD students to be TAs for MS students.

Undergraduate classes and Doctoral classes are completely separate for my discipline, while MS students can take a mix of the two (we use a 100-900 class level scale, 100-400 is undergraduate, 700-900 is doctoral, 500-600 are "MS" level courses, often cross-listed with 300-400 levels- doctoral students can't receive credit towards their degrees for anything below 700, with a few notable exceptions).

This is even more common depending on the "type" of MS student- 4+1, thesis option, non-thesis option.

Hi Eigen, excellent posts. Thanks for your input!

I'm in the social sciences. My department, too, places a distinction between MA and PhD students in terms of courses. Undergrad courses at my department are 200-400, MA courses 600, and PhD courses 800. The number and type of required courses are completely different, too. That said, there are many courses that MA and PhD students take together. In fact, so far, all the classes I've taken had many MA students in them (all but 2 of whom are thesis students). The courses are cross-listed as 600 and 800. The required readings are exactly the same, but the course assignments are completely different, and we are held to completely different standards. In fact,while an A+ is virtually unheard of for PhD students in my program, MA students *can* and sometimes *do* get A+s.

Aside from that, we have the TAship issue: Generally, PhD students are assigned TAships for courses that are more demanding (that have seminar components, for example). In the past 3 semesters I've TAed 3 courses, and of the 6 TAs who were TAing that class (I TAed the same course for three consecutive semesters), 5 were PhD students, and 1 was a MA thesis student.

There are also some students who have been assigned TAships for MA courses. In fact, one of them almost never socializes with MA students, and gets a lot of respect from said MA students (as a result of that? or something else?). I mean, the guy has lower grades than I do, hasn't attended any conferences, and isn't involved in any departmental activities/meetings and does not attend any of the academic talks at the department, so it's safe to assume it must be due to something other than his standing in the program. I couldn't help but notice how he was being treated, and wondered whether, if I did the same, I would be viewed in the same light/treated the same way. I'm not sure. It could be for an entirely different reason that people react to him like that, of course. Another guy is also sort of like that (though less so), and he, too, is talked about by MA students with a lot of respect. I'm wondering if the different treatment they get is because they're viewed by MA students as more "professional", ironically because they don't hang out with said MA students? Sort of like one of my gramma's sayings, to the effect that if you act aloof, people will respect you more, whereas if you appear to be "chasing" after them, they will not respect you as much, because you will seem desperate for their "attention" and friendship?

Also, and as a side note (this was not the main reason for my thread, it just came up later on, as part of discussions) : assuming that I will, one of these days, get a TAship for a MA-level course (the ones that are not required of PhD students, or which PhD students are not allowed to take), how will friendships with MA students affect that? If it's standard practice for PhD students to TA MA-level courses in some departments/schools, doesn't that really entail that PhD students should avoid socializing with MA students (the same way that they avoid socializing with undergrads)? Just wondering.

Edited July 28, 2011 by TheSquirrel

[ktel]

I know TheSquirrel is at a Canadian school, but I was wondering who else is at a Canadian school and what they notice. I think in the States it's more Us vs Them in the fact that you choose PhD or MA/MS, whereas here, most PhD students were previously in a Master's program. That surely must affect the perception of Master's students in the eyes of faculty and PhD students.

[ZeChocMoose]

I know TheSquirrel is at a Canadian school, but I was wondering who else is at a Canadian school and what they notice. I think in the States it's more Us vs Them in the fact that you choose PhD or MA/MS, whereas here, most PhD students were previously in a Master's program. That surely must affect the perception of Master's students in the eyes of faculty and PhD students.

I think it is more field specific than United States vs. Canada. In science, there does seem to be a distinction between those who pursue a Master's vs. a PhD (as Eigen pointed out) because you generally don't pursue a Master's if you are interested in the PhD. In social science (however), it is more common for people to earn a Master's at one school and then pursue a PhD at another school. Sometimes you may take some time off in between Master's and PhD, but sometimes you don't. I can't speak to humanities though as I am not sure what the norms are for that field.

[rising_star]

OK, this is interesting -- what exactly do you mean by "none of them are close friends, probably due to the differences in where we are in life"?

You seriously don't know what differences in where we are in life means? Often, it means relationship or parental status.

Also, what exactly do you mean when you use the term "socialization"? Do you mean talking with students in the hallways? Going for coffee or lunch with them? Hanging out in the evenings, over dinner or a beer? I used the word to refer more specifically to social interactions completely outside the work/study environment.

I was thinking of outside the work/study environment. I go to coffee/lunch with people, out to happy hour, to just grab a quick beer, go to people's houses for dinner, etc. And, for the record, the profs do join us at times. Our department goes to happy hour on Friday after colloquium, and that consists of faculty, grad students (both MA AND PhD [i make the distinction only because you do]), and the speaker for that week's colloquium.

And actually, I've heard faculty talking amongst themselves about when to go for drinks or dinner together, etc. They don't do that with MA students or PhD students. Why? Can you take a wild guess?

You really want hypotheses now? Okay, I'll bite. For the same reason grad students talk amongst themselves about when and where to go for dinner or drinks. Because they want to? Because faculty want to hang out without grad students around just like grad students want to hang out without faculty around? Because they need to discuss a work-related issue in the evening? Because they want to form a band together? Because they like each other's company?

Was that enough wild guesses for you? If not, I'm sure I--or someone else--can come up with a few more.

I'm not sure what you mean -- if degrees are unimportant in social life (as some insisted in this thread), I don't see why it should be different for PhD-MA student relationships compared to professor-student ones. Can you elaborate further on this?

I'm drawing a distinction between professor-undergraduate student relationships, not between professors and students more generally. Personally, I don't treat MA students any differently than I treat PhD students. All of them are my colleagues and are potential collaborators on research or conference papers.

Also, if profs don't socialize with undergrads because they are supposed to maintain a position of authority vis-a-vis their students (and guard against conflict of interest), what about PhD students who TA Masters-level courses?

In my department, PhD students do not grade the work of MA students. Professors grade the work of graduate students, regardless of the student's level. PhD and MA students serve as TAs and they grade the work of undergraduates only.

Honestly, I feel like this thread has taken a massive detour because of your questions, TheSquirrel. People have already answered your original question and given you feedback on how you might better present such an inquiry in the future. I really do think you should make decisions about friendships based on what it is you want, not what other people think, which you seem hesitant to do for some reason. If you are need additional opinions about whether you can or should befriend MA students, I recommend you consult more advanced PhD students and/or a mentor in your field. They should be able to help you with this.

[ZeeMore21]

I think it is more field specific than United States vs. Canada. In science, there does seem to be a distinction between those who pursue a Master's vs. a PhD (as Eigen pointed out) because you generally don't pursue a Master's if you are interested in the PhD. In social science (however), it is more common for people to earn a Master's at one school and then pursue a PhD at another school. Sometimes you may take some time off in between Master's and PhD, but sometimes you don't. I can't speak to humanities though as I am not sure what the norms are for that field.

I can't speak for all of Humanities, but in my experience as an English MA in one department and a Special student (non-degree seeking...so lower than an MA) in another, I honestly didn't feel inferior to those who were doctoral students...they never were condescending and took the time to get to know other students seeking lower degrees. I actually befriended many doctoral students as a special student...I was often invited to social activities outside of school. Any get-togethers I attended had a mix of MAs, Special students, and doctoral students.

So perhaps, the divide between doctoral students and MA students is not that rigid in the Humanities, especially given that doctoral students usually are not teaching MAs but undergrads.

Edited July 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[ZeeMore21]

But also, TheSquirrel, I think I'm now just confused about what you are asking about now and what advice you need. It seems like you have already made up your mind, so this debate seems kind of pointless. Initially, like I said before, your issue was mainly about personality conflicts in the OP. Now, you are saying that as an aside, your reason for avoiding MA students is because you might be a TA. I'm assuming that you haven't received a TA yet, so I'm wondering why the rush in putting up boundaries. I see no reason why, in the beginning of this coming school year, you would not try to at least get to know who the incoming MAs are.

Tell me if I am wrong (seriously) but it seems as if you are now using the TA as an excuse for your attitude toward MAs. Although nothing is wrong with separating yourself from MAs because you will be teaching them, you have to be able to respectful towards MAs nonetheless. I still sense a condescending attitude from you. I definitely would be careful not to put up too rigid a boundary between you and MAs, as some of these same MAs might even end up as your colleagues in your future. Better yet, the same MAs who do go out into the work force might be individuals you may rely on in the future for networking if you don't end up in academia. You really have to be careful how you do treat people, because it could end up costing you an opportunity.

Edited July 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[TheSquirrel]

But also, TheSquirrel, I think I'm now just confused about what you are asking about now and what advice you need.

I think what I was asking is clear, as indicated by Eigen's and a few others' posts commenting on the issue.

Tell me if I am wrong (seriously) but it seems as if you are now using the TA as an excuse for your attitude toward MAs. Although nothing is wrong with separating yourself from MAs because you will be teaching them, you have to be able to respectful towards MAs nonetheless. I still sense a condescending attitude from you. I definitely would be careful not to put up too rigid a boundary between you and MAs, as some of these same MAs might even end up as your colleagues in your future. Better yet, the same MAs who do go out into the work force might be individuals you may rely on in the future for networking if you don't end up in academia. You really have to be careful how you do treat people, because it could end up costing you an opportunity.

I didn't say the TA thing was the reason at all. I mentioned it as a hypothetical situation in response to someone's claim that profs are a special case: that they don't socialize with students because they want to establish their authority over the students they're teaching, not to mention, avoid conflict of interest. If that was the sole reason for it, PhD students would also be expected -- from the get-go -- to maintain their distance from both undergrads AND MA students (at least in departments that do assign PhD students to TA MA-level courses), so that *when* they are assigned to TA such courses (or actually, TEACH the entire course, as my department has hinted at at one point), there'd be no issue of authority / conflict of interest.

Also, as I stated in another thread, in my undergrad years (my degree was in the humanities) all the TAs in my department were PhD students. There were no MA students who were TAs. There seemed to be a rather obvious divide between MA and PhD students.

Edited July 28, 2011 by TheSquirrel

[ZeeMore21]

I think what I was asking is clear, as indicated by Eigen's and a few others' posts commenting on the issue.

I think you could have simply just asked me to elaborate here...obviously I wasn't speaking on the behalf of all of these posters on this thread. I'm speaking for myself here, and there are certain things I am not following.

I am confused about whether you are just wondering if it is okay to avoid certain MAs that are giving you a hard time. If this is the case, then yes, in my opinion, you do have the right to avoid these individuals. However, I don't know why you seem to leap to the conclusion that you must disassociate yourself from MAs in general. One of your questions in the OP was, "Do you think PhD students should distance themselves from MA students, and act more formal with them?" I personally don't see why I would have to distance myself from MA students if I don't have any personal conflicts with them.

I also would genuinely like to know what you mean by acting "more formal" with MA students.

[robot_hamster]

My experience has been that Masters and PhD students are on the same level. At my school, MS and PhD are mixed together. They share lab space, they take the same classes, etc. I have taken classes with MS and PhD students. Two classes in particular (that I took) had both an undergraduate and graduate component. There were undergrad, MS, and PhD students all in the same class. There was a TA for the class as well and they had authority over everyone. When it comes to socializing, everyone is just seen as graduate students regardless of whether they are MS or PhD. They seem to intermingle just fine. When I talk to people outside of class, it doesn't bother me what "level" they are at. I am working on my MS, but I don't think it would be any different for me if it was the other way around.

[starmaker]

If doctoral students don't TA for MA classes in some of your programs, then who does? MA students? But if that's the case, and you don't think that people should socialize with people that they might teach, wouldn't that stop the MA students from socializing with each other? And the PhD students from socializing with each other? After all, they might end up teaching each other.

And what about undergrad and 4+1 master's TAs for undergrad classes? I've taught friends when both I and they were undergrads, and I've been taught by friends when I was an undergrad and they were undergrads or 4+1 MEng students. Like I said, professionalism is important - I remember one class, with many TA sections, in which the staff made a great effort to put people in sections not TAed by their friends, and I think that's entirely reasonable if you have enough sections - but I'm used to an environment where anybody might end up teaching anybody if one is further along than the other in the same area. What are you supposed to do, not take a class in your area because the TA is your friend? So I do not understand the idea that such friendships are absolutely verboten. Not take a TAship because you know that some of your friends (who, again, might be on the same professional-hierarchy level as you, and thus legitimate friendship candidates by even the respect-the-hierarchy proponents) are going to take the class that semester?

Zee, I think this MS/PhD divide is a program-by-program thing, rather than a sciences thing. I'm in the sciences and it hasn't been so rigid anywhere that I've been, though it is slightly more of a thing in my MS program than it was at my more we're-all-part-of-the-same-university-community undergrad school.

I find the concept of different classes for master's and PhD students to be a questionable practice, but my own program does it with a few classes (the others are just normal grad classes), so I'm aware that it exists. My undergrad school didn't have this distinction, and it also allowed undergrads who met the prereqs to take grad classes at will, which seems like a sensible setup to me.

[Eigen]

Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard of a distinction between MS and PhD level courses. Maybe it's different for engineering - there may be a certain pattern and chronology to when people take certain classes, but I've seen MS students TAing courses that PhD students take and vice versa. It all has to do with who decides to take what when in my department. If such a distinction is made at other schools, I can see where some of this thread's separation between MS and PhD students comes from, but I can also definitely see where some of the disbelief comes from as well. In my experience, PhD students certainly have more life and academic experience in general, but in my lab, we all share the dirty work; we all socialize together at the lab happy hour. We all treat each other with professional and personal respect. I guess I'm lucky to be in the kind of environment where you are judged by the work you put in, regardless of how many years you've been there or what degree you are working towards.

Also, pretty much all our masters students are thesis'd, if not all. That probably makes a big difference.

I think the thesis option does make a large difference- for us, a non-thesis option can be as short as one extra year of coursework- and the MS students that take that really don't separate much from the undergrads/4+1 MS students. The thesis adds a research dimension that gets them into the lab, and working with the rest of the graduate students, which helps a lot. I'll also say there's a difference between those that you get to know in your lab, and those that you don't. The undergrads that work in my lab come to happy hours and stuff with us too- we work 8 hours in the lab today, I'm going to invite them to do some of the fun stuff as well.

My points were more on the general overview that MS students, depending on their goals/work ethic would either be viewed as more/less serious, and that I found there tended to be a large divide between the two groups.

In my department, we have almost no MS students- there's a program, but applications are not really encouraged. I work pretty closely with several other departments (we share lab space, floors, etc), and those are the students I'm commenting on. All the MS students in my department hang out with the rest of us.

I think some of it also depends on how many students you have, relatively, in the two groups. If you have large MS cohorts as well as large PhD cohorts, and especially if the two take fairly large portions of different coursework, it can serve to striate the "graduate" population into two groups.

For the university overall (combining sciences with social sciences) we don't make any distinction when it comes to social events- when we host "graduate" events, they're for all graduate students regardless of level, and no one seems to care.

I think people seem to be taking this from a "general observations" on students that fall into one group or the other, and turning into hard-and-fast "one is better than the other" or "they should be treated differently". I find, generally, the MS students I know are less separated from undergrad than the PhD students. That doesn't make them lesser, and it certainly isn't a rule- it's an observation. Making general observations is a completely different thing from taking those general observations and trying to apply them as some sort of predictive model to that population- something I'm not trying to do. I feel this important to clarify, because it seems like my previous posts have made it seem like we have strict rules against socializing between "ranks"- something that doesn't really happen.

As (I think) has been mentioned, you should hang out with the people that you get along with and that you have things in common with... Whether undergrads, MA students, post-docs, professors, etc... You just sometimes have to be careful (as starmaker points out) to be professional and mindful when your personal and professional lives intersect.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Eigen

[rising_star]

If doctoral students don't TA for MA classes in some of your programs, then who does? MA students? But if that's the case, and you don't think that people should socialize with people that they might teach, wouldn't that stop the MA students from socializing with each other? And the PhD students from socializing with each other? After all, they might end up teaching each other.

In both of the graduate departments I have been in, MA and PhD students take the same courses and there are no TAs for those courses. Certainly my department would never let MA students assign grades to other MA students if they don't let PhD students assign grades to MA students.

[ZeeMore21]

Zee, I think this MS/PhD divide is a program-by-program thing, rather than a sciences thing. I'm in the sciences and it hasn't been so rigid anywhere that I've been, though it is slightly more of a thing in my MS program than it was at my more we're-all-part-of-the-same-university-community undergrad school.

I find the concept of different classes for master's and PhD students to be a questionable practice, but my own program does it with a few classes (the others are just normal grad classes), so I'm aware that it exists. My undergrad school didn't have this distinction, and it also allowed undergrads who met the prereqs to take grad classes at will, which seems like a sensible setup to me.

Thanks for clearing that up starmaker, I am not in the sciences, so I was going on what the other science posters were saying. I personally am glad that I don't belong to a department which treats MA students totally different from doctoral students....it makes the department feel much friendlier and way more collegial. This definitely is just my opinion though, perhaps there are other doctoral students who prefer that type of rigidity and division. I just am still a bit confused as to the value of such a rigid division.

Edited July 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[robot_hamster]

In both of the graduate departments I have been in, MA and PhD students take the same courses and there are no TAs for those courses. Certainly my department would never let MA students assign grades to other MA students if they don't let PhD students assign grades to MA students.

This really must be a program thing. I was a TA for a class last semester and I assigned grades to MS students. I didn't actually teach the class though, I graded papers and supervised the lab activities. The grade I gave for the papers was the grade that they got though. But are you talking about a TA actually teaching the class? I haven't ever seen a TA teaching a class by themselves that was a graduate-level course. I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from between all the different posters in this thread. How is everyone defining a TA?

Edited July 28, 2011 by robot_hamster