PhD student hanging out with MA students?

[juilletmercredi]

In my department PhD and MPH students take classes together - there's only one dedicated PhD only class. But PhD students do TA classes for MPH students; MPH students don't serve as TAs. We grade them, but it's not quite the same as distancing oneself from undergraduate students. My advisor grades me, but we can also spend socializing time together without me expecting to get an A+ because we both drink the same martini or something. I socialized with MPH students my first two years here and when my master's students friends graduated I stayed close to many of them. I was the rare breed in my field who entered without a master's, and so I was closer in age and developmental stage to the MPH students. I hung out with both MPH students and my fellow PhD students. Now I hang out almost exclusively with the PhD students, but that's simply because I don't know any MPH students.

I don't know *shrug* The MPH students here are driven and serious; most of them are very passionate about the field and are interested in research, even if they don't want a PhD. My friends with MPHs are all working in free clinics and government health positions and the like. Conversely, the PhD students know how to have fun; they aren't all "quiet" and "keep to themselves." I don't think there is a typical personality for PhD students, other than a love of research and the desire to torture oneself for 5-10 years (lol).

have a certain dislike for those who do the internship option of the MA program in my department (btw, for some perspective, there are only three thesis students in the entire MA program), but that is only because of my not-so-great experiences with them, and not because of their career choices (in fact, I've often said that they seem to be smarter than the rest of us who have chosen academia, because they will definitely have better job prospects).

I don't get it - if it's not their career choices, then why not pose the question as "I have some issues with the gossipy/unserious students in my department" and leave it at that? You're basically asking us if you should hang out with people who annoy you and who you don't like the be around...why would you even need to ask that? If you have not-so-great experiences with them and dislike their gossip and drama, simply don't socialize with them and make friends with the PhD and MA students who don't do those things.

[rising_star]

This really must be a program thing. I was a TA for a class last semester and I assigned grades to MS students. I didn't actually teach the class though, I graded papers and supervised the lab activities. The grade I gave for the papers was the grade that they got though. But are you talking about a TA actually teaching the class? I haven't ever seen a TA teaching a class by themselves that was a graduate-level course. I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from between all the different posters in this thread. How is everyone defining a TA?

I'm going to explain how things work in my current department. There are no TA positions for graduate courses in my department. Our graduate courses are all 500 and 600 in course number, but those numbers don't distinguish MA classes from PhD classes or anything like that. The courses also have under 25 students. In our department, an undergraduate course must have at least 50 students before there is a TA for that course.

As for what TA-ing is, that varies. MA students are *not* allowed to teach their own courses. That is a university-wide rule that says that instructors of record must have a master's degree. MA students lead discussion sections, teach labs, and serve as graders. PhD students can do anything that MA students do or teach their own course, depending on departmental needs.

My advisor grades me, but we can also spend socializing time together without me expecting to get an A+ because we both drink the same martini or something.

Yes, exactly. My advisor will buy me drinks sometimes at happy hour or other social occasions but that doesn't mean I'm getting an A in his class or an easy pass on comps or anything like that. However, and again my university is strict about this, I would *never* let an undergraduate in my course (whose work I am grading at that time) buy me a drink or do any other favor in exchange for a higher grade. That would be completely unethical, just like it would be unethical for me to buy my advisor drinks so I can get an A. Does that make sense, TheSquirrel?

I socialized with MPH students my first two years here and when my master's students friends graduated I stayed close to many of them. I was the rare breed in my field who entered without a master's, and so I was closer in age and developmental stage to the MPH students. I hung out with both MPH students and my fellow PhD students. Now I hang out almost exclusively with the PhD students, but that's simply because I don't know any MPH students.

I know exactly what you mean. (Also, Hi! We haven't talked in a while!) I did my MA straight out of undergrad. You might have expected (or at least it seems like TheSquirrel might have expected) that most of my friends would be fellow MA students or undergrads. The only undergrad I knew was the senior who was my roommate. My friends in the department were almost exclusively PhD students, though I was friends with a few MA students in another department. The people I still keep in touch with that I met during my MA are the PhD students, most of whom have now graduated. There are lots of reasons I wasn't close with the MA students during my MA but a big one was that we weren't in the same subfield so we didn't take the same courses. We also didn't have a lot in common. The PhD students were into the things I was into, like football.

[wtncffts]

This really must be a program thing. I was a TA for a class last semester and I assigned grades to MS students. I didn't actually teach the class though, I graded papers and supervised the lab activities. The grade I gave for the papers was the grade that they got though. But are you talking about a TA actually teaching the class? I haven't ever seen a TA teaching a class by themselves that was a graduate-level course. I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from between all the different posters in this thread. How is everyone defining a TA?

I don't think it's a definiton problem, just a variation among programs. I guess some programs simply require, for whatever logistical reasons, TAs for graduate classes as well. Perhaps the class sizes are large? Profs too busy/too lazy?

I'm personally also surprised to hear that grad students sometimes TA graduate courses, because every grad course I've been in has had, at most, 15 students, and thaf was only one; the rest had between 5 to 10 students. I don't see any reason why you would need a TA for such classes. The basic purpose of TAs in my field, I think, is to lead the discussion sections and grade the papers/assignments of their students. For grad courses, the discussion section just is the course, and profs grade the small number of assignments, which often consisy only in a final paper.

[robot_hamster]

I don't think it's a definiton problem, just a variation among programs. I guess some programs simply require, for whatever logistical reasons, TAs for graduate classes as well. Perhaps the class sizes are large? Profs too busy/too lazy?

I'm personally also surprised to hear that grad students sometimes TA graduate courses, because every grad course I've been in has had, at most, 15 students, and thaf was only one; the rest had between 5 to 10 students. I don't see any reason why you would need a TA for such classes. The basic purpose of TAs in my field, I think, is to lead the discussion sections and grade the papers/assignments of their students. For grad courses, the discussion section just is the course, and profs grade the small number of assignments, which often consisy only in a final paper.

I see, that might be where the difference is. This was a large class I was a TA for. It had both undergrad and graduate students though. I graded everyone's stuff.

[TheSquirrel]

I don't get it - if it's not their career choices, then why not pose the question as "I have some issues with the gossipy/unserious students in my department" and leave it at that?

What part of it don't you get?

I said: "have a certain dislike for those who do the internship option of the MA program in my department (btw, for some perspective, there are only three thesis students in the entire MA program), but that is only because of my not-so-great experiences with them, and not because of their career choices"

I meant that I do not categorically dislike internship students for their career choices. That doesn't mean that their career choice doesn't make most of them less serious about coursework / the program as a whole. All the internship students I've talked with don't give a damn about any of the courses they're taking. They just want to be done with the program requirements ASAP, and start their internships at government agencies. So their attitude to the work/research that is expected of them is generally similar to that of some uncommitted undergrads who party away their university years.

Edited July 29, 2011 by TheSquirrel

[TheSquirrel]

I don't think it's a definiton problem, just a variation among programs. I guess some programs simply require, for whatever logistical reasons, TAs for graduate classes as well. Perhaps the class sizes are large? Profs too busy/too lazy?

I'm personally also surprised to hear that grad students sometimes TA graduate courses, because every grad course I've been in has had, at most, 15 students, and thaf was only one; the rest had between 5 to 10 students. I don't see any reason why you would need a TA for such classes. The basic purpose of TAs in my field, I think, is to lead the discussion sections and grade the papers/assignments of their students. For grad courses, the discussion section just is the course, and profs grade the small number of assignments, which often consisy only in a final paper.

The grad courses that have TAs at my department are those that are not necessarily very large (though in comparison to other classes, they are larger -- about 20 students compared to 11 or 12 in regular classes), but which are considered core courses for MA students and for which there are A LOT of assignments. In one of those courses, students are expected to also attend, aside from the lectures and labs, a weekly meeting where students present their work in progress (on the major assignment). The prof runs all those lab/seminar/presentation sessions, but understandably (IMO) needs a TA to manage it all.

Edited July 29, 2011 by TheSquirrel

[starmaker]

I'm personally also surprised to hear that grad students sometimes TA graduate courses, because every grad course I've been in has had, at most, 15 students, and thaf was only one; the rest had between 5 to 10 students. I don't see any reason why you would need a TA for such classes.

In my experience, they help grade the work (or possibly do all of them grading themselves), sometimes give the lecture in an area in which they have special expertise (for instance, if it's a machine learning class, and the TA is doing their dissertation in the area of reinforcement learning, the professor might have them give the lecture on reinforcement learning), hold their own office hours so that students have multiple avenues from which they can seek help, and (this one is obviously a little field-specific) help students with programming difficulties (especially if the class is taught using a programming language that most students don't already know, since it means that they're having to learn the language and the content of the class at the same time).

[Mal83]

OP, you might know for a fact that all of the MA/internship bound students in your specific program don't give a damn about the courses they're taking because they just want to move on to their jobs as soon as possible, but that's not the case for all of us, I know, I know, you're not generalizing, but really what's the difference? How does the level of their commitment impact your degree? However, despite the lack of generalizing, it's a little tough to read through this thread and not get the "oh, I guess I'm in that category too because I'm a soon to be lowly MA student in a *gasp* professional program." It's still beyond me, after 4 and a half pages of this thread, why you needed advice in order to decide if you should spend time with people who engage in behavior that you don't appreciate. The better question is why wouldn't you distance yourself from them? Would you be missing out on something socially or academically if you did? If you're truly not generalizing or looking for confirmation that it's OK to purposefully be contemptuous of professional MA students then I'm not sure where the Phd vs MA thing comes into play. Regardless of academic hierarchy or who has to do the most work for their degree, your problem is the particular people that you happen to be in a program with that are not to your liking for whatever reason, or at least that's what you're insisting. I totally understand feeling disgusted with people who are immature, disrespectful, and not committed, but if you don't have to go out to bars with them and subject yourself to their drama, then why would you? Seems like a no-brainer. I sure as hell wouldn't, even if that means reducing the number of people in my social circle. Maybe you should reach out to the few other PhD students in your program in order to start building friendships with them, that might work about better because they're motivations and interests will be more in line with yours...just sayin'

[polarscribe]

Wow, this thread is full of win and lulz.

I start a thesis-option MS in a month and work for the government as a part of a student-to-career program. My advising professor is highly interested in my research ideas and, in fact, I'm the only new student he's funding this year. In my discipline (natural resources/heritage interpretation), every professor I've met has spent years working as a professional in the field before returning to teach it.

You need to be very careful about generalizing academia-vs.-real-world, because whatever divide there once was is crumbling as we speak - just ask all the Ph.D holders who can't find tenure-track jobs.

Edited August 5, 2011 by polarscribe