GRE Scores for Musicology or Composition

[Dharma Bum]

I recently took the GRE in mid-July and scored what seems to me to be "hysterically average" overall. I made a 610 V and a 490 Q while I was quite surprised to receive only a 4 on the AW...

I guess my question is, as an applicant with a 3.99 GPA (made one B freshman year), what should be excellent recommendations from my professors, as well as strong writing samples/scores and a statement of purpose, should my GRE scores really be something that I should worry about?

Where I'm applying:

Composition:

UC Berkeley, University of Chicago, Princeton, and Florida State

Musicology:

Duke, UCLA, and University of Southern California

[Karajan]

Hey, I'm not speaking from experience, but I think you have time to retake the GRE, so why not retake it and see if it goes better? I'm under the impression that the GRE doesn't hold a lot of significance in our applications though.

[Karajan]

Hey, I'm not speaking from experience, but I think you have time to retake the GRE, so why not retake it and see if it goes better? I'm under the impression that the GRE doesn't hold a lot of significance in our applications though.

[Dharma Bum]

Honestly, on the Revised GRE, they are taking away everything on the Verbal that I'm great at (analogies and vocabulary) and beefing up the difficulty of the Quantitative (calculator now included, implying more than just simple calculations). I feel like my writing samples will speak for themselves and the general feel that I got from multiple people is that the AW section is often overlooked the most, particularly when it is something right at the 4-4.5 "average" score.

[composser]

I'm inclined to saying that for Composition the GRE matters very very little (if at all). Perhaps, only few big universities or Ivy schools hold on to this. Cornell has dropped it some time ago and has benefited from it. And what I gathered from schools is: "If h/she is good, we don't care"

To answer your question, number-wise you can still get anywhere you want. It's the portfolio that will carry the most importance anyways.

... as for musicology I have no idea. Maybe it matters just a little more. But V610 is enough.

[Dharma Bum]

For Musicology, I believe they care a little bit more about your AW and V score, but your writing samples submitted again seem to hold the most importance. I am reasonably confident that no music program is going to care about your Q score unless perhaps you are looking for a sound engineering or acoustics and technology degree or something similar.

[txonet]

Hi Dharma Bum,

I applied to DMA programs in composition last year and I assure you that they don't care about GRE's. I talked to several faculty members of the universities which I applied to (Northwestern, Stanford, Columbia, UCSD) and they all said that GRE's are not important. In fact, I got a similar score to yours and I got into where I wanted to go. That said, it is extremely important that you focus on your music. Music, music, music. Send them great scores with great recordings, and write an statement of purpose that talks about your music.

Don't write some autobiography because they are boring. Write about your music, your thoughts, your musical interests, etc. This is what they care about. They want to know about your artistry and not your diplomas, GRE's, etc.

So, here's my advice: focus on the music and write an essay that speaks about your music in depth (so don't say: I like this, I don't like this). You need to explain why you do what you do in depth.

[Dharma Bum]

Actually your mentioning recordings got me thinking about my own portfolio submissions...

I think I have an excellent body of work with both large-scale orchestra pieces as well as chamber and small ensemble works. My problem stems from the fact that there aren't a great many opportunities at my school for students to get their works performed (our wind ensembles and choruses are excellent, but the string department has definitely lagged behind... very apparent during opera productions every semester). My question is whether I should be worried about having to send Garritan or DP recordings. I've used EWQL samples for orchestral work through DP and the Garritan samples through Finale are actually quite bearable as opposed to simply having a MIDI message recording.

I was just wondering about your thoughts on this.

[txonet]

If you apply for a PhD program in composition, they are going to expect you to have already had decent/good performances of your music—I'm not saying that you should've had performances by ensemble modern or the Arditti Quartet; I only mean high quality performances. So I personally would never send MIDI recordings. For example, Columbia doesn't accept MIDI recordings, and I think that Stanford doesn't either. MIDI is just not serious, and in the case your music gives more importance to textural development rather than functional harmony, standard MIDI doesn't do a good job at all.

Further, you mention that you have a diverse body of works in terms of instrumentation (large orchestra, chamber, small ensemble, etc). This is not as important as it seems. I applied to great schools with 3 small ensemble pieces (solo, duo and trio) and I was accepted by some of them. What's important is that your music needs to be relatively original. I know many people who applied to schools with their "Symphony No. 1" and they all failed: their music lacked originality, it was cheaply done, poor orchestration, an aesthetic that shows completely detachment of the composer from the real world of contemporary music, etc. I'm not saying that there are aesthetics better than others (not at all), but many people who apply for composition programs focus more on the application rather than writing music that is interesting and rich.

Hope this helps!

[beccakephart]

I have a question relating to submitting portfolios. For my masters thesis I wrote a work for concert band. The concert band at my school was kind enough to give me a reading, but it was just that, a reading. The result was ok in parts, but I feel the whole is lacking. The work is supposed to be 15' and the recording I have is over 18'. Should I submit the thesis with the entire recording, or should I cut the recording into segments and mark the "good parts" in the score?

[hiroshiman]

For my sake, I truly hope a miserable quantitative score (475) will not negatively impact my chances too drastically.  It has been many, many years since I have been inside a math classroom.

[CP3]

My GRE sucked, my GPA was OK (I slacked off my first couple of years), but other than crappy test scores and average transcripts, my rec letters should be great, my performance history and recordings are pretty good, and I feel like I have a very original portfolio, I spent hundreds of hours making my scores look as professional as possible, and my recordings were all done by the best students at my former University. 

 

Its really hard being in music, because most people that post on forums etc major in completely different areas. For example, someone in psychology needs to show the ability to do research, work well with other professors, an ability to write intellectually etc etc

 

In music composition, a portfolio is what we count on, and if someone doesn't "like" our music, even if it is really good, they will not bother with admitting you to the program.

 

I'm waiting on 7 schools right now, the first one said NO a few days ago, so we shall see what happens:)

[Karajan]

If it's of use to anyone, if I recall correctly (which is a long shot), I got: 

 

Quant: 790 (old scale); 162 (new scale) 

Verbal: 690 (old scale); 164 (new scale) 

 

I don't remember what I got in writing.  I think it was a 4.0

[CP3]

I would've killed for those GRE scores, lol!

[SunnyComposer]

What I've heard from some faculty, is that GRE's might be used as a tie-breaker at the very end of the process, if they have 2 equal candidates.

[beethomeister]

Yes, but do you think there are ever any realistic "equal candidates"?

 

Chances are, GREs need to be above a certain threshold to pass university-wide requirements, but are almost never the direct cause of any admission or rejection. I've talked to some faculty who say they don't even look at the scores after everything's been screened.

[musicmage09]

Yes, but do you think there are ever any realistic "equal candidates"?   Chances are, GREs need to be above a certain threshold to pass university-wide requirements, but are almost never the direct cause of any admission or rejection. I've talked to some faculty who say they don't even look at the scores after everything's been screened.

Usually, departments make "recommendations" to the main graduate department of the candidates they want. Say they recommend three students but the main graduate department decides they only have enough funding for two. At this point the candidates are "equal." Then its a matter of which student can pull more funding (i.e. based on minority status, etc.). University wide fellowships etc. rely heavily on GRE scores (only standardized way to judge candidates from different disciplines). Therefore, the GRE (at certain schools) can determine funding and as a result admittance. This is especially true for departments where its students must receive full funding+stipend.

[beethomeister]

My prediction is that for composition, the committee never lets it get to that point, where they send a pool to the university and "let them decide" so to speak. They recommend exactly who they want up to their cap of spaces, checking that the scores satisfy minimums. If they have 2 funded spots on 3 attractive applicants, they'll offer 2 spots and waitlist the 3rd. I can't imagine they'd leave it into the hands of the university.

 

From my conversions with composition professors at various schools, my impression is the same as txonet's - they don't give a rat's tail about quantitative measures like testing, and find that GREs have zero to little influence on the abilities of a composer to produce music or to maintain a level of discourse on creating music.

 

I can't speak for musicology. Perhaps it is more similar to typical humanities fields, in which case musicmage's scenario may happen.

[musicmage09]

My prediction is that for composition, the committee never lets it get to that point, where they send a pool to the university and "let them decide" so to speak. They recommend exactly who they want up to their cap of spaces, checking that the scores satisfy minimums. If they have 2 funded spots on 3 attractive applicants, they'll offer 2 spots and waitlist the 3rd. I can't imagine they'd leave it into the hands of the university.

 

From my conversions with composition professors at various schools, my impression is the same as txonet's - they don't give a rat's tail about quantitative measures like testing, and find that GREs have zero to little influence on the abilities of a composer to produce music or to maintain a level of discourse on creating music.

 

I can't speak for musicology. Perhaps it is more similar to typical humanities fields, in which case musicmage's scenario may happen.

 

Certainly I myself cannot speak for composition, however I can speak (in a general sense) for programs at prestigious universities. While I understand that we would all like to take comfort in the thought that GRE scores are towards the bottom of the list for importance, they do exist as a requirement for a reason. I agree that standardized tests are not indicators of skill (at least in music--only my opinion of course), however--as I mentioned before-- University-wide fellowships rely on the GRE (and GPA) and therefore this can make the difference between you being one of the accepted or the one on the wait list.  When you have three highly qualified applicants and two spots every part counts and can make a difference. It can also grant you the possibility of being an extra acceptance (if the department really wants all three they will try to find funding for the extra person and an option is through one of these university-wide fellowship competitions). 

 

Furthermore, schools have a GRE "cut off line" but rarely make that line public (at least my schools did not). I assume this could be because that line fluctuates depending on the number of (highly qualified) applicants in that season. It is no surprise that more selective schools have a higher cut off, and they use GRE scores to weed out applicants. If you scored as I did then you are in the range where you aren't quite sure if your score is high enough for the top of the top-tier schools. If you are feeling confident that your score is that high then you certainly do not need to worry!

 

Of course, there is no exact formula that will get you in (score XXX on GRE, X.X GPA, +recommendations +etc.= you're in!), and certainly different schools have different weights for the various elements of the application (you can get a sense for what they consider most important by viewing the PDF of your application and observing the ordering of the various parts). Naturally, your craft is the most important aspect, and THIS is what makes you a highly qualified applicant. 

 

I have researched and asked a lot on the subject as it relates to the musicology programs I applied to (my GRE scores are the weakest part of my applications), and the answers I received (and scenarios that I have passed along) seemed applicable across the board. Certainly, GRE scores should weigh even less for composition majors than for musicology/theory/ethno. I certainly wish GRE scores were not required at my programs. 

[CP3]

GRE/GPA seems to be used mainly for the purposes of assistantships/fellowships. I think my average GPA (3.25) and low GRE scores (I won't even post them!) have hurt my application.

 

My SOP is pretty solid (should've been a little more specific) my LORs are solid, my portfolio is solid. But I've bee rejected 3 times, and I am quite certain more rejections are on the way.

 

Talent and potential is a big thing for composition. In a perfect, beautiful world, comp applicants would be admitted based on talent etc.

 

But in the real world, these schools have certain rules and policies. Maybe I'm being naive or I'm in denial, but I feel like there are people out there with a weaker portfolio than mine that are getting accepted because they have higher GPA/test scores. It's a damn shame, but that just seems to be how its panning out so far.

[composser]

I doubt it. Again, portfolio is the most important. While you think that your portfolio is strong, it might be not the kind that the comp faculty wants. It depends from school to school, and while people say that are trying to be impartial, only very few universities achieve that. I know personally faculty who base their decisions on some abstract notion of "potential," even though there was better music submitted that year. 

Cut-offs should not exist. If they do, it is a shame... because we are all paying the 100+ fee for the application. If the school does not post cut-offs, takes the money, and then weed people out according to those cut-offs, they are not an educational institution but just a bunch of crooks. It is too much like a scam. If anyone knows that this happens and you have facts about it, you should not remain silent, and accept the way things are, but must speak openly. Once things like this get some serious publicity, you will see how quickly they will change.

Last, remember that lots of faculty go out to festivals etc. meet composers, and advice them to apply to their programs. We are competing against them too. And it is difficult, since they already have a strong connection and previous liking  for that person. And faculty recs will help only if they are well-known. On an average, most recs mention that you are 5% top students ever. No one believes that, they just learn to read between the lines (and codes like this exist!), if there is something wrong with the applicant. 

[musicmage09]

Cut-offs should not exist. If they do, it is a shame... because we are all paying the 100+ fee for the application. If the school does not post cut-offs, takes the money, and then weed people out according to those cut-offs, they are not an educational institution but just a bunch of crooks. It is too much like a scam. If anyone knows that this happens and you have facts about it, you should not remain silent, and accept the way things are, but must speak openly. Once things like this get some serious publicity, you will see how quickly they will change.

).

GRE minimums exist for all schools that ask for it. That is well known. Minimums are the cut off lines. They are not standard across the board or even across departments in a university.

Edited February 19, 2013 by musicmage09

[composser]

Sure, but if they are transparent about it, they should write what these cut-offs are.

 

Take Harvard. They require GRE, but do not post any cut-offs. In the Q&A they also mention how they are not looking for a particular score.

Now, if they actually end up rejecting applicants because their GRE scores are too low, that is not ok. 

[musicmage09]

You will find that most schools say that

[kccur]

Sure, but if they are transparent about it, they should write what these cut-offs are.

 

Take Harvard. They require GRE, but do not post any cut-offs. In the Q&A they also mention how they are not looking for a particular score.

Now, if they actually end up rejecting applicants because their GRE scores are too low, that is not ok. 

 

Agreed, but unfortunately that seems to be the way the game works these days. My medical field friends say it's especially bad for them, apparently some of them have been told by admissions people (after applying) that the posted test score cutoff and the effective test score cutoff are significantly different (i.e., they won't seriously consider applicants below a certain score, even though their posted cutoff was significantly lower). Applications seem to be a little bit of a racket. It's frustrating.