PhD student apply for another PhD program

[chichi]

Hey guys

I am a first-year PhD student in HK. I am thinking about applying for PhD programs in the States. My major would probably not change. Is there any trouble I may face in the situation? Would schools in the States decline such case? I appreciate very much your reply!

[TMP]

Generally in the US, it's frown upon, largely because programs are full-funding and they don't like to "waste" their investments. But it's acceptable if a primary faculty member left and the student has absolutely no support. Or if the program includes a MA thesis/coursework as part of the PhD (as opposed to direct PhD and picking up the MA after comprehensive exams).

[chichi]

Thanks for your reply. I am confused about something you said. Hope you could give more detailed explanation and analysis. Appreciate!

1. What do you mean "they don't like to waste their investments?"

2. I am not familiar with grad school system in the States. What is "the program includes a MA thesis/coursework as part of the PhD (as opposed to direct PhD and picking up the MA after comprehensive exams)"?

[TMP]

1. Graduate programs spend well over $200,000-$300,000 over the course of five years on a single student. This includes living stipend, tuition waivers, health care (if you're lucky), TA-ships, and grants. For a student to walk out after 2 years, that's a loss of close to $100K. History job market is very bad and there are a lot of reasons why doctoral programs in the humanities shouldn't be funded and these programs need reasons to keep getting the money. If they keep losing students to transfer, drop out, or whatever, then it just doesn't make them look good. Doctoral programs don't make money but they DO produce scholars and that's when they think "that was a good investment," especially when the student lands a tenure-track job.

2. Some doctoral programs require students to do master's coursework and a thesis (StrangeLight's program is one of them) as part of the doctoral degree program. Others just don't do it and give you the MA after you finish the comprehensive exams. Sometimes students in the former leave- either out of academia entirely or transfer. In either case, the doctoral program isn't happy. It knows that by having the MA/PhD curriculum, it risks having students "transferring" to another one. Professors may be helpful if there are very compelling reasons (like loss of financial aid or an important scholar). Otherwise, it's frowned upon.

[Sparky]

To tack onto TMP's point #1: the worry, in this case, would be that if you just randomly left one program to go to another (in other words, without a compelling reason like "my advisor left and there is no one here anymore who studies my geographical area OR my time period of interest"), what would be stopping you from doing the same thing to the new program? The grass is, after all, always greener on the other side...

[maeisenb]

The one question caveat would be if you don't have funding already then, I would think, you could explain that and it would make a lot more sense. So in the UK people can do PhDs without funding - many do it part time for this reason - so that would be something of a compelling reason I would think. Though that might not apply at all.

[chichi]

Hey guys, thanks so much for teaching me the battling strategies! What if I don't transfer, but choose to study another PhD in the States next fall at first, and when I pass the qualifying in the States, I return to HK to finish the degree? Anyone who can analyze the situation for me?

[Sparky]

Uh, I'm pretty sure U.S. schools would still view that as a transfer/grass is always greener bid.

Also, what do you mean by "pass the qualifying"? You mean when you pass comprehensive exams, or when you finish your dissertation and get the degree? (Do you know how U.S. PhD programs are structured?) Are you seriously proposing that you would stop your coursework in HK, do U.S. coursework, pass comps, then go back to HK while you write your dissertation? Or are you suggesting that you finish off the U.S. degree, get your PhD, then say, "No thanks, I don't want to do anything with it, I'm going to go back and be a student somewhere else." (See TMP's previous post for exactly what U.S. schools think of that.)

Besides that, would your current program really allow that? I can't think of a single U.S. school that would let a student ditch out in the middle of the program to do a degree somewhere else but still hold the spot. Do you know how long a history PhD in the U.S. usually takes? Would your credits/all the work you've done in your current program expire? Would you still have a spot in your program?

And finally--most importantly--WHY?! Why on Earth would you ever do that? If the HK degree will get you where you want to go, pursue it. If you need a U.S. degree for what you want to do, why would you go back and finish the one in HK? If it won't do what you want it to do for you, put together a compelling case for a U.S. school to look beyond the fact that you're transferring.

If you told us why, exactly, you want to do a degree in the U.S., maybe we could be of more help...

[Sigaba]

FWIW, I transferred after earning my M.A. My initial institution wasn't working out for me. As I was completing the requirements for the M.A., I told a couple of professors that I was considering a change. I took a semester off. I applied to a program in Southern California and that institution's history department and graduate school were quite eager to have me.

In some ways, transferring was the best decision I've ever made. In others, it was among the worst. Paradoxically, the reasons why are almost exactly the same for each evaluation.

So, before you commit to making a change, do yourself a favor. Print out, read and then re-read Sparky's post and make sure you know the answers to all of her questions.

HTH.

[chichi]

Thanks, Sparky. You raised many important points that I didn't think seriously of. The idea of getting two degrees is from a person I know. She gets double PhD degrees in the same major, one in Hk and the other in the States. However, I don't the black box of how she did it. So I thought it might work.

Could you kindly share with me more about the structure of history department in the States and how is it related to the difficulty of getting double degrees, so that I can better evaluate my position? I appreciate very much your reply in advance!

[TMP]

Generally, you take 2-3 years of coursework, write your master's thesis (some programs require it) and take your comprehensive exams in 3-5 different areas in your third year. Then once you've passed all of these, you're left with your dissertation and how long it takes to write will largely depend on you, financial support that you have (grants, self-financing, etc) and your committee. Most will take 3-6 years to finish. The coursework is what separates US PhD programs from European. In European universities, you generally jump right into writing the dissertation.

[StrangeLight]

yes, in general:

year 1 and year 2: coursework, researching and writing a master's thesis.

year 3: coursework, writing comprehensive exams (which can be on as many as 150 or 200 books), writing the proposal/overview for your dissertation.

year 4: research for your dissertation, at archives or wherever else your sources are located.

year 5 to year ?: writing the dissertation.

there are many US programs that won't actually allow you to be enrolled in another PhD program at the same time. exceptions are joint programs where the US department specifically says you can complete two PhDs in two DIFFERENT fields at once. i've never heard of a program that allows you to complete two PhDs in history at once. and why would they?

if you want to return to hong kong, you can probably move back there in year 5 - ? as you write your dissertation, provided you get fellowships and don't have to teach to earn a living. if you actually want the hong kong PhD, then just get it. it really, honestly makes no sense to get a PhD from hong kong and a PhD from the US in the exact same field. it's ridiculous. pick one or the other.