George Washington - low gre scores

[hrcharron]

I just found this site as i'm frantically searching google for some light on my GRE issue. I've taken the GRE once already and am scheduled to take it again in 3 days. My first scores were pretty bad. Bad enough for me not to want to share them with the entire gradcafe, but, I did get a 4.5 on the writing section which isn't absolutely horrible.

My dilemma is this:

I'm sure if i were to cancel my gre scores at the end of the test, that it will still be on record that I took the test but the scores simply wont be revealed. I'm applying to George Washington in a few weeks for fall admission. Which would look worse: only taking the gre once and doing poorly on it (except writing) or taking the test twice and both being low scores (with the second score potentially being lower than the first)?

I've tried to study, even took a Kaplan class about 6 months ago but i waited too long after the class, telling myself i would study (which i did, some) and complete let life get in the way of studying for this completely retarded test that i dont agree with. And yes, I know that's not the point.

I had an undergrad gpa of 3.1 which is mediocre, but since i graduated undergrad, i now have about a year and a half of valuable experience that will help me, plus have two previous internships which are also partially related to what i'm applying for. I am also getting one of my scientific directors at my lab job to write a letter of recommendation for me, which i think will be written very well and be beneficial.

I need a little advice. Anyone know how George Washington values their GRE scores along with the gpa, paid work experience, internships, recommendation letters, etc?

Thanks for reading.

[mraig]

I've tried to study, even took a Kaplan class about 6 months ago but i waited too long after the class, telling myself i would study (which i did, some) and complete let life get in the way of studying for this completely retarded test that i dont agree with. And yes, I know that's not the point.

Are you sure graduate school is for you? There will be a lot of similar situations in grad school where you'll have to choose between "life" and studying. I'm not trying to be mean here. Graduate school is not for everyone. It's not for 99% of people. It takes a really huge commitment of time and energy, and involves a lot of sacrifice of other parts of your life. I once heard a professor say something off-handedly to a group of us grad students: "You know, you don't *have* to do graduate school. There's nothing wrong with you if you don't." I think professors ought to remind students of this fact more often.

But, having spent 3 years in graduate school myself, I have seen lots of people who were very smart and very good at lots of things who just weren't cut out for grad school, who more or less wasted several years of their lives and didn't have anything to show for it at the end. I don't know you at all, of course, so maybe that's not you. But this comment about the GRE class, plus the 3.1 GPA, lead me to believe that you're not someone who has given up a lot of time to single-mindedly studying at the expense of everything else. I apologize if I'm wrong. But even if I am wrong, this is what the people looking at your application are going to be tempted to think. They won't know you any better than I do.

As for your question about GWU: look at it from the point of view of the people who will be evaluating your application. Your GRE scores are bad. Your GPA is borderline. There had better be something else really spectacular to keep them from tossing that application in the bin, because there will be plenty of other applicants with higher GREs and higher GPAs, and the evaluators will be looking for people to cut. So your SOP, recommendations, writing sample, and whatever else they ask for can't just be good; they have to be so stellar that they'll make you stand out among the crowd.

[linden]

hrcharron:

I believe that if you cancel your scores before you see them, ETS will not record test-taking activity for that instance. But, you will never know how you did on your test. Your practice test scores, however, should give you an idea of whether it is worth it or not to take the test. It sucks that so much of your future depends on a three-hour test, but c'est la vie. The GRE can matter, whether we like or not, as many of us on gradcafe have recently had confirmed.There are so many applicants to some programs, that grad schools have to find some objective criteria by which to select applicants who will get consideration. GRE scores can be one of those criteria.

Your 3.1 GPA is not going to immediately disqualify you from consideration, but it won't make your application stand out, either. That's why you need those GRE scores to confirm your academic potential (i.e., give the school a reason to look at your application). If you can, you might want to think about retaking the Kaplan course and testing immediately (as in, two days after you finish the prep course).

Nobody here can tell you what George Washington values in an applicant. You should try talking to the department about your numbers. Even those departments who don't share that information will at least tell you if your GPA and GRE scores put you in a competitive range. You might feel better about your chances once you talk to them.

Good luck!

Linden

[ridgey]

The way I see it, the various components of the application are trying to convince the adcoms of two things: 1) that you're smart enough, and 2) that you're diligent and dedicated enough. Now, we all know that neither GPA nor GRE actually measure these factors well, but the reality is that they're a reasonable proxy - or are treated as such by the committees that matter.

As someone else said, the rest of your application needs to be strong enough to overcome the red flags that your GREs and GPA will raise. I'd suggest also that you address these in your application, or ideally get your letter writers to do so. Put an addendum on your SoP (you could put it directly in, I guess, but it risks turning your SoP negative) explaing about your grades - you were ill/working fulltime as well as study/young and have since matured/whatever. Get your letter writers to say that you've demonstrated incredibly academic ability and that the GRE doesn't reflect your potential.

If you have time to take the GRE again, study for it. I am the queen procrastionator (and I'll probably be punished for it in my applications - do as I say not as I do!), but it seems to me that the amount of work that goes into these applications, not to mention money, can be used to sift applicants - those who are dedicated and are willing to work for their goals versus those who are used to doing just enough. Only one of those groups of people generally succeed in grad school. I hope this comes across how its meant, I certainly am not trying to be critical (in fact I'm speaking to myself here too): if you can't make yourself do what you need to do to have the strongest application possible, how much do you really want to go to grad school?

Only you can answer that, of course. Anyway, to answer your original question of whether the rest of your application is strong enough to overcome the GPA/GRE: who knows? The 3.1 would probably make it past the first round at least, and since you haven't told us your GREs I can't say. Your whole application will probably be considered and you'll have the chance to shine if you can get past the first big cull.

Sorry to not be more helpful. All the best.

[hrcharron]

Thanks for your replies.

As far as the comments if i'm ready or if grad school is right for me, that is not one of my concerns. I know what will be expected of me as a graduate student and am ready to take that leap. I dont have any doubt that 'grad school isn't for me.' I just seem to do crappy on standardized tests. I know that some people use that as an excuse, but i really feel that even after studying that i dont do as well as i can. I took my SAT's years ago. I took them twice, doing a little worse the second time than the first. I have this gut feeling that if i were to take the GRE again, that the same would result.

I am very, very excited to be starting my grad classes in forensics. I've looked at the courses and their descriptions and i absolutely cant wait to learn more about them than I already know. I've also met the professors that teach some of the classes that i'd be taking as well as the advisor in my chosen concentration.

So, yes, I know that i have low GRE scores and an "ehhh" overall average for my BS (forgot to mention a 3.7 gpa for my Associate's) but with my internship experience, work experience, hopefully killer recommendation letter and awesome sop -- has anyone else been in the same situation?

I'm pretty sure that I read if i were to cancel my scores during the test, that my school would be able to see that i canceled them. Would that look worse than having only taken the GRE once and it being low? I would think that two low scores would be worse than taking it once or even canceling my scores. I just dont know. And i dont really know how to ask my contacts at GWU about this without it making myself look worse. I'm open to ideas ...

[IvyHope]

Ok, first of all, don't listen to anyone who tells you "grad school isn't for you." That's bullshit, grad school is for anyone who wants it. There are plenty of egos on here who like to beat up on people- it must make them feel better or something. Let the school you are applying to decide if their program is for you- not some nerd on here who is feeling insecure about their application.

Secondly, yes I think getting two bad scores is worse than canceling. Now, I took the test twice, and managed to get the exact same score both times, with 2.5 years in between. The test is fabulously stable that way. It might be better to have only taken the test ONE time and gotten a low score.

However, for what it's worth, I did not have a good GRE score (not a bad one either) and my GPA was abysmal because of some partying I did when I was first out of high school :wink: but I still managed to get into a top 10 program in my field, because my grades showed an upward trend and because I was interesting enough on the other parts of my application. If anyone dare say grad school isn't for me, they would be sorry they did.

I HATE people who think they are remarkable enough to tell someone else they shouldn't pursue their dreams. Not all of us had a privileged upbringing and were able to achieve a 4.0/1500 as a result. Some of us have more challenging circumstances to deal with ;-)

I wish you luck in your applications.

ALSO, I forgot to mention this: I found Kaplan's prep program to be a horrible waste of money. The first time I took the GRE, I took Powerscore's prep program (the weekend one) and found it very helpful. They had a reputable instructor who had scored in the 99th percentile on the GRE and was a good teacher. Kaplan provided a math instructor from the local community college. I was very disappointed.

[ridgey]

Ok, first of all, don't listen to anyone who tells you "grad school isn't for you." That's bullshit, grad school is for anyone who wants it. There are plenty of egos on here who like to beat up on people- it must make them feel better or something. Let the school you are applying to decide if their program is for you- not some nerd on here who is feeling insecure about their application.

....

I HATE people who think they are remarkable enough to tell someone else they shouldn't pursue their dreams. Not all of us had a privileged upbringing and were able to achieve a 4.0/1500 as a result. Some of us have more challenging circumstances to deal with ;-)

I realise what I said can read like I'm one of the dreamkillers; that really wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry If I was discouraging.

RE: report showing that you cancelled your scores - I think you'll have to talk to ETS (shudder!). Speak to someone on the phone, AND ask them to direct you to the url with their policy on it. I'm sure the majority of folks at ETS are competent and helpful, but on these boards we here so many stories of their screwups that, in your positions, I'd be wanting to check that what the phone person says isn't something they made up on the spot.

[MAN]

I loved the Kaplan GRE prep book with practice tests and problems on CD. I studying that thing for about 3-4 months. I ended up getting 560 V, 800 Q, and 4.0 AWA. I really studied the Q section heavily and pretty much disregarded the rest (Q is the major concern for Econ).

Anyway, I'd suggest taking the GRE again. This time, focus your study a little bit more (hopefully you don't have any life interruptions).

I'm pretty sure GWU would look at your entire application before making a decision. Having one bad area won't kill you. Having several bad areas, though, might get you rejected. With a borderline GPA, you're going to need to have decent to good GRE scores or a ton of work experience or have a great research paper published (or a combo of all three) to have your application noticed.

[misterpat]

I just found this site as i'm frantically searching google for some light on my GRE issue. I've taken the GRE once already and am scheduled to take it again in 3 days. My first scores were pretty bad. Bad enough for me not to want to share them with the entire gradcafe, but, I did get a 4.5 on the writing section which isn't absolutely horrible.

My dilemma is this:

I'm sure if i were to cancel my gre scores at the end of the test, that it will still be on record that I took the test but the scores simply wont be revealed. I'm applying to George Washington in a few weeks for fall admission. Which would look worse: only taking the gre once and doing poorly on it (except writing) or taking the test twice and both being low scores (with the second score potentially being lower than the first)?

I've tried to study, even took a Kaplan class about 6 months ago but i waited too long after the class, telling myself i would study (which i did, some) and complete let life get in the way of studying for this completely retarded test that i dont agree with. And yes, I know that's not the point.

I had an undergrad gpa of 3.1 which is mediocre, but since i graduated undergrad, i now have about a year and a half of valuable experience that will help me, plus have two previous internships which are also partially related to what i'm applying for. I am also getting one of my scientific directors at my lab job to write a letter of recommendation for me, which i think will be written very well and be beneficial.

I need a little advice. Anyone know how George Washington values their GRE scores along with the gpa, paid work experience, internships, recommendation letters, etc?

Thanks for reading.

So, the 4.5 is the best part of your score? I almost didn't believe that your score was bad, since the rest of your post is kind of dramatic. I've become desensitized to reading new people over-dramatize their situations on this board: "OMG OMG I WONT GET INTO PRINCETON WITH MY 780 V 800 Q AND THREE YEARS RESEARCH EXPERIENCE! PLEASE REAFFIRM MY BELIEF IN MYSELF, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVENT READ MY PERSONAL STATEMENT OR WRITING SAMPLE, INTERNET STRANGERS!" But if the 4.5 is the highlight of your score, then you might have a legit concern. Retake it. (I don't mean to insult you here, I scored a 4.5 both times I took the test. The questions are just so stupid. But I consider it a blemish, and not the only part of my score worth mentioning).

About cancelling scores, however: don't do it. Unless you got into a car accident on the way there and were distracted/freaking out about the conseqeuences, etc. On just about every standardized test I've ever taken, I thought I did worse than the score I received. This could reflect my cynical/pessimistic worldview, or it might go to show that standardized testing involves a lot of educated guessing. You can't be exactly sure of how many you got right or wrong (the remarkable exception being a lot of LSAT takers who post on the top-law-school.com forums, but I think the LSAT is less of a crapshoot than the GRE verbal section). PLUS if you were getting hard question on the GRE, that likely means you were getting a lot of questions correct. So, if you were struggling, you might misjudge a good score for a bad one.

You paid for the score, you might as well take the four free score reports from the test. And you probably did better than you think you did, so relax, and see how you did. All the books I read said not to cancel your scores, and I am in full agreement with that.

[mraig]

Ok, first of all, don't listen to anyone who tells you "grad school isn't for you." That's bullshit, grad school is for anyone who wants it. There are plenty of egos on here who like to beat up on people- it must make them feel better or something. Let the school you are applying to decide if their program is for you- not some nerd on here who is feeling insecure about their application.

However, for what it's worth, I did not have a good GRE score (not a bad one either) and my GPA was abysmal because of some partying I did when I was first out of high school :wink: but I still managed to get into a top 10 program in my field, because my grades showed an upward trend and because I was interesting enough on the other parts of my application. If anyone dare say grad school isn't for me, they would be sorry they did.

I HATE people who think they are remarkable enough to tell someone else they shouldn't pursue their dreams. Not all of us had a privileged upbringing and were able to achieve a 4.0/1500 as a result. Some of us have more challenging circumstances to deal with ;-)

Obviously, you're responding to my comment above. Read it again. You'll see that I say several times that I don't know this person, and am not trying to evaluate him/her. I'm not trying to beat up on the poster, and I'm not trying to make myself feel better, and I'm not a nerd who feels insecure about my application. I was making a general statement; I was asking, not telling. Hrcharron goes on to say that (s)he has no doubts that grad school is right for him/her, and I don't quesion that. But I think it's good advice for anyone who's thinking of applying to school. I wish someone had sat me down five years ago and said the same thing to me, and I bet there are plenty of current/ex grad students who feel the same way.

But I stand by every single word of what I said. Graduate school is for anyone who wants it? No it's not. Plenty of people get into graduate school, spend a couple of years there, and either can't make it, or decide that it's not right for them, for any number of reasons. You get a more realistic view of the world of academia, and that's not for everyone either. It often involves putting other parts of your life on hold, including big things like starting a family or settling into a community, which are important to many late 20/early 30 year-olds. It involves entering a very competitive job market (depending on the field), where (for those intending to become professors themselves) it can take years to find a tenure-track job, and can involve shuffling around the country from place to place taking one-year appointments.

If you're in a top 10 program in your field, surely you have seen that many students around you end up leaving the program without completing it for various reasons. That doesn't mean that grad school can't be a great, rewarding, intellectually fulfilling experience. It's just not for everybody.

[lauras]

Personally, I agree with Ivy. Grad school is for anyone who gets in and education is never a waste.

And if you don't finish, you don't. If you don't get a tenure track position, you don't.

For people who are flexible, there are many jobs you can get with an English PhD that are not in academia. There are several lawyers at my law firm who got a PhD in English or some other world literature before they changed paths. Worse things can happen to you in life than not getting a tenure track position.

[mraig]

Hey, if anyone wants to go to grad school and gets into a good program, all the more power to them. But, having completed a graduate program in one field (and I'm currently considering trying for a second degree in another, so I'm not down on the idea of grad school at all), I've given this matter a lot of thought. I've seen lots of people come and go through my own program and others in related fields, and had lots of long discussions about this with fellow graduate students.

My perspective is that probably half of people who start grad school end up not finishing, and a good portion of those who don't finish end up feeling frustrated, disillusioned, and like they wasted a lot of time with nothing to show for it. Is this everyone? No. Is this the majority? No. But, from my observations, this group represents a significant fraction of people who start grad school.

[lauras]

mraig,

You are not wrong about that. A lot of people that are not making it in graduate school (whether it's academic, personal or financial) feel very frustrated and bitter when they finally give it up. Usually at this point they are also really, really broke. I've known a few people in this position too, and I was surprised to hear them talk fondly of grad school a year later, once they found a job and were on their feet, away from the stress and frustration of arguing with an advisor they just couldn't communicate with and having to pay for an extra semester of fees because their thesis was not acceptable, etc. etc.

I think no one can know how they're going to do. Just cross your fingers and hope things work out for the best.

[IvyHope]

I think there is also a distinct difference between the person who goes to grad school out of a true love and interest, and the person who goes for other reasons (ie, loss of a job, bad economy, nothing better to do). If you are not sure academia is for you, then by all means stay out of the way of the rest of us. But, if you are passionate about academia, don't let some blip on your record stop you from chasing that dream.

[lauras]

That reminds me of a story this old Professor I used to know tells about how he got into his field.

He was in the army after WWII and they asked for volunteers if anyone wanted to be a "Statistician."

He volunteered, but only because he was a little deaf from mortar fire and thought they said "Dietician."

You never know what you'll be good at, I guess, though times were simpler then.

[mraig]

I think there is also a distinct difference between the person who goes to grad school out of a true love and interest, and the person who goes for other reasons (ie, loss of a job, bad economy, nothing better to do). If you are not sure academia is for you, then by all means stay out of the way of the rest of us. But, if you are passionate about academia, don't let some blip on your record stop you from chasing that dream.

I think maybe we're more on the same page than it may seem. I totally agree that if someone is passionate about academia and committed to your subject, past issues shouldn't discourage you from continuing to do go higher.

[IvyHope]

I think maybe we're more on the same page than it may seem. I totally agree that if someone is passionate about academia and committed to your subject, past issues shouldn't discourage you from continuing to do go higher.

Excellent. I am sure we are more similar in position as well...

[hrcharron]

haha =)

Thanks for everyone's replies.