GRE Scores - Pathetic?

[joe490]

Hello,

I stumbled across this website a few weeks ago and have been browsing these forums since. I'm glad this resource is available to us and we can all come together to help each other out through this dismal process.

I'm currently a double-major Sociology/Communication Studies at Seton Hall University in NJ. My GPA is 3.7 and I am assisting a professor with research. Overall, I like to believe my strengths lie in academia and I'm looking to obtain a Ph.D in Sociology.

All was well -- I have three professors lined up who I'm sure will write me fantastic letters. My Soc. adviser is more than willing to work with me to help me draft a great Statement of Purpose and Writing Sample. Then... I took the GRE.

I almost threw my head through the monitor when I saw my range. 390-490V and 520-620Q. I (think) I wrote two strong essays for AW, but we'll see.

Reading this forum has made me more discouraged, as I see fellow posters becoming anxious over scores ranging 600+. So, I must ask, do I have the SLIGHTEST chance with these atrocious ranges? I don't have the financial resources or the time to retake the GRE, so I'm stuck with whatever the official outcome turns out to be.

This isn't meant to sound pompous or big-headed, but I know I'm better than what these scores show. I hate that this test is supposed to give schools an idea of the type of student I am in a "standardized" context, because my scores don't reflect me at all. I simply croak during these standardized tests. The SAT was no different.

If anyone has ANY advice, comments, criticism, anything -- it'd be greatly appreciated. All I want is a chance to prove myself in Grad School, and I'm praying I didn't blow my chance because of this stupid standardized tests.

Please help? I'm feeling really down right now.

Sincerely,

Joe

[Kitkat]

I think it all depends. Your GPA is great, research is always a plus. Having good letters of rec are always good. So all of those things are in your favor. From what it sounds like is that the GRE is the weak part so far on your application. And no, the GRE is not the best measure of aptitude in grad school, but we have to deal with it all the same. Plus, you aren't the only one who didn't do well on it.

It might become a factor depending on where you are applying to and what the "cutoffs" they have are. So depending at what schools you look at, and how you approach applying to them, yes you stand a chance. The middle of the overall range looks like it gets you right over the 1000 mark. But then there are a lot of fellowships that are also dependent on what GRE you get. So a bad GRE might get you knocked out of contention for more "highly ranked"/"competitive" school before they even look at the rest of the application, or prevent you from money you might otherwise very much deserve.

What I would say is this. You have several things you can do. You can retake the test, and yes I know, its very short notice. Not much time to study and do better. On the other hand, if you don't meet the cutoff, you can talk to professors and administrators, make them see you for a whole person before they even get the application. Unfortunately, taking that route it still it hits you as far as fellowships are concerned, which is why I say that you should think about trying to retake.

[kaykaykay]

Those points are sort of indicating that you have not prepared at all (if you are a native speaker of English you may have even chose randomly I do not know!). Maybe with some preparation you can rock the test.

I am not sure what you mean by that you do not have the time or the financial resources to retake the GRE. If the trade-off is to apply a year later, retake the GRE sometime during the year (because you did not make the cut off) would it be still worth not to do it? or of course you can give up going to grad school. Competition is quite big for grad program spots, especially if you want to get some fellowship.

As an alternative you could possibly look into options which do not require GRE, like schools in Canada etc.

Edited October 14, 2011 by kalapocska

[joe490]

@Kitkat: Thus far I'm looking to apply to NYU, Cornell (I know, I know... dreaming big for something that probably won't happen) Rutgers, and SUNY Stony Brook. From what I've seen on their websites, all of these schools say there is no "cut-off" per se, and the GRE "is just one factor in the application." But I'm not sure whether to take that with a grain of salt & if that's how it really goes down at the Admissions table. The fellowship factor is one main reason I may consider trying to retake, but who knows if I'll do any better.

@Kalapocska: By financial resources, I mean money. Besides having to pay application fees it's simply going to run me down to have to dish out another $160 to take it again, plus travel expenses to get to the testing center. Though my pitiful scores may not suggest it, I did try to prepare, and yes, I am a native English speaker. Again pulling the financial factor into the picture, I couldn't purchase any additional study materials or take any formal prep classes. So, I was on my own with free resources for preparation.

Thank you both for your input. My only other consideration in retaking it is the time factor. I took it Oct. 7th, so I wouldn't be able to take it again until at least Dec. 7th, and most schools want the GRE scores submitted WITH the application, not as a supplement after the fact, right? That's what I've read so far.

Does anyone else have any feedback? I appreciate the comments -- it's nice to hear other opinions!

[emmm]

I think the V score will hurt you. Is there anyone from your school you could talk to? Sociology is not a field I'm familiar with, so I'm only guessing on the importance of the verbal score.

[Sigaba]

Your GPA is great[.]

In my experience, undergraduates worry about their GPA while professors worry about grade inflation--to the point where some programs give little weight to an applicant's UG GPA and more to GRE scores, the SoP, the LoR, and the writing sample.

@joe490. I recommend the following.

First, start managing your expectations about getting into your top choice schools. This is not to say that you will not be admitted, but that you should do the best you can on your applications to those schools with the understanding that it may not be in the cards at this time.

Second, do some soul searching. Given the fact that you know standardized tests are not your thing, take a long hard look at the steps you took to put yourself in the best position to succeed, why those steps did not work, and why you did not do more. After compiling a list of "lessons learned," and chewing yourself out, pick yourself off the ground, dust yourself off, and move on.

Third, write/call the schools you want to attend and do what you can to arrange on campus visits. If those schools offer optional interviews, make sure that you participate. If those schools do not offer interviews, do what you can to have sit down/face to face discussions with DGSs and other Powers That Be. When you go, wear a pressed dressed shirt, and socks that match your shoes, if not also a tie and a suit. In these conversations, be cool, like the Fonz. Make sure your strengths shine through. Talk about what you've done and what you want to do. Spend very little time on your weaknesses. If (and only if) the chemistry is great should you mention your concern over your GRE scores.

Fourth, during the interval, be very careful in how your professor "helps" you with your writing sample and LoR. If both are articulate, you might raise flags given your GRE verbal score.

Fifth, give some thought to the viability of taking again the GRE after you've had some prep time. Do the leg work to find out for certain how far into the application process you can submit your GRE scores. Do not settle for what you heard from another applicant, or what you read on a website, or scuttlebutt. Figure out who knows the answer for certain and get your information from that person.

Meanwhile, start preparing for your next effort. I understand that you face financial obstacles and I urge you to find ways to be resourceful. Ask classmates if they have spare prep materials they no longer need. Talk to those in your department about your situation. You never know when a professor or a department chair or a graduate student has knowledge of available resources. You never know when someone is going to reach into their wallet, pull out some cash, and hand it to you. (If this does happen, make sure you thank them with a hand written card--if not also a copy of the receipt).

Last, if you've not done so already, see if you can get into your departments' honor programs. While you'll likely have to submit your applications before you finish these programs, your participation will not hurt your chances.

HTH.

[kaykaykay]

I do understand the meaning of lack of resources. I just do not think that considering the trade-offs this is the best item to cut corners.

What does it worth to spend all the application fees if you do not get in? If you have to do the whole process next year too? I f you do not get a fellowship?

This is what I meant by that I do not understand the lack of resources.

I am not a native speaker, but getting some of the practice books , and going through them(20$ each X2) raised my points by 300 on verbal and 200 on quant because I understood how the test worked. This is without any fancy prep course.

GRE points are accepted usually even if you just put on the test date on yoir application even if you do not have your points yet. (even if you are just planning to take take the test!!)

All the best for you in any case. The advices above are all great although instead of travelling to visiting weekends and spend the money that way you may want to consider retaking the GRE, if you think you can do better, that is.

[orst11]

I just wanted to point out something Kitkat noted about your score on the GRE, the middle of the range of scores puts you around the 1000 range. I would say with that you could easily apply to a few programs with 1000 cutoffs and probably get accepted somewhere. You could easily get a MA in a lower ranked program and then apply to a program that is much better. This is actually quite common at some places.

One thing you can typically find out, either from a programs website or NRC data, is a typical first year students GRE Q scores, so you can find out your competitiveness for a given program.

Also, since you noted your financial resources, I would say there are ways you can save a little money with the whole process. If you decide to retake you can easily borrow material from people that have already taken the test. I borrowed flash cards for the 500 most common words, which actually were ones for the old test, but they helped me feel a lot more comfortable with the verbal portion of the test. I used the net to my full advantage with getting free test prep materials. Another thing you will want to do is use your campus resources to your full advantage, this I can tell you has saved me at least a few hundred dollars. When applying, you can typically request fee waivers from some programs, $50+ may not seem like a lot to some people, but trust me it helps when you have other bills and such to pay. While some of these things may seem difficult at times and require more paperwork, grad schools do like diversity and try to provide opportunities to those with less money so always consider contacting departments before applying.

Finally, I think the site is sometimes a little discouraging, so I wouldn't get too anxious, a lot of the people on the site do given excellent advice as you can see so don't take things to seriously.

[Sigaba]

The advices above are all great although instead of traveling to visiting weekends and spend the money that way you may want to consider retaking the GRE, if you think you can do better, that is.

@kalapocska FWIW, the distance from Seaton Hall University to NYU is about 15 miles (24.6 km), to Rutgers is 4.6 miles (7.6 km), to SUNY Stony Brook is 73.3 miles (118 km), and to Cornell is 211miles (339 km).

[Gvh]

[...]Finally, I think the site is sometimes a little discouraging, so I wouldn't get too anxious, a lot of the people on the site do given excellent advice as you can see so don't take things to seriously.

I have to emphasize on this - while I haven't applied anywhere yet, my scores are in the lower range (around 1250) and every school I talked to said it really shouldn't hinder too much as long as your GPA is good, with a great SOP and LORs. I would try not to worry too much about it and focus on the other parts of your application. After all, you could have a 1600 GRE but if you're not right for the school, and the rest of your app materials aren't up to par, you wouldn't get a second look anyway.

[joe490]

Thank you all truly for your extensive feedback. Your opinions are helping me organize my thoughts and make a plan of action. From what I'm gathering, I believe my first step should be to reach out to POI's for my top choices, and based on their responses consider retaking the test. It seems the consensus is mixed in regard to the GRE's weight in admission decisions, and I suppose that is because none of us TRULY know, and it varies school to school, correct? Most of my schools seem to have Dec. 15th deadlines, so if I were to retake the GRE it would have to be around that mid-Dec. time frame and scores would be reported 10-15 days later because I do believe score reporting returns to normal after November. But once again, my prioritizing of retaking the test should depend on what information I can gather from my schools of interest, correct?

@Sigaba: Thanks for the extensive insight -- I do have one question about a point you brought up. You mentioned I take care in asking for assistance with writing LOR's and SOP's. Do you truly believe a school would raise a flag to well-written application supplements when a verbal score is low? I consider myself a good writer in general, and the GRE (for me, at least) is a poor representation of my ability. Do schools tend to make generalizations of my ability based on GRE scores? I also understand your point in regard to GPA Inflation, which I assume is the reason we have standardized tests such as the GRE to place everyone on equal grounds.

@Orst11: My biggest difficulty in searching for study material was the fear of using materials for the old GRE to study for the revised. I know ETS' website suggests not to, and I couldn't decipher that as either a gimmick to purchase new study materials to generate profit or if it was a fair warning. Playing it safe, I only used the limited resources I could find free online for the revised exam. Utilizing campus resources is also great advice which I did not consider the first time around. I don't frequent our Academic Resource Center, so I don't know the extent of their usefulness, but it's something to consider if I decide to retake, so thank you.

@Gvh: Fit is another factor I need to consider as well - thank you for bringing that up. My interests within my field are broad enough that I hope can be spun to fit in anywhere, but at this point in my life I suppose that's not my place to say.

Again, thank you all so much. I did not realize how much more involved this was as opposed to applying for undergrad, but I am certainly ready for the challenge. This is kind of a bittersweet process -- while the contention of going to Grad School is enticing, the steps necessary to reach it is quite involved.

If anyone has anything else to add, please feel free. I'm enjoying the feedback.

Joe

Edited October 15, 2011 by joe490

[fuzzylogician]

@Sigaba: Thanks for the extensive insight -- I do have one question about a point you brought up. You mentioned I take care in asking for assistance with writing LOR's and SOP's. Do you truly believe a school would raise a flag to well-written application supplements when a verbal score is low? I consider myself a good writer in general, and the GRE (for me, at least) is a poor representation of my ability. Do schools tend to make generalizations of my ability based on GRE scores? I also understand your point in regard to GPA Inflation, which I assume is the reason we have standardized tests such as the GRE to place everyone on equal grounds.

If I may answer this, I have to disagree with Sigaba's warning. I don't think that a well-written writing sample and SOP would raise a red flag if your verbal score is low. I think it's much likelier that the essays are taken as the true indication of an applicant's writing abilities, and not the GRE scores. The GPA and GRE scores are more often used for cutoffs so that your low score puts your application at the risk of being tossed without being thoroughly read, in which case your well-written essays will not save you. But once your application is given serious consideration, the essays and recommendations are the most important part of the application. I think in your case you should seriously consider improving your studying strategies and retaking the exam. In addition, if you have a close enough relationship with your recommenders I would suggest asking at least one of them to address your verbal/writing abilities directly. That should remove all doubt about what your skills really are.

[Sigaba]

@Sigaba: Thanks for the extensive insight -- I do have one question about a point you brought up. You mentioned I take care in asking for assistance with writing LOR's and SOP's. Do you truly believe a school would raise a flag to well-written application supplements when a verbal score is low? I consider myself a good writer in general, and the GRE (for me, at least) is a poor representation of my ability. Do schools tend to make generalizations of my ability based on GRE scores? I also understand your point in regard to GPA Inflation, which I assume is the reason we have standardized tests such as the GRE to place everyone on equal grounds.

If I may answer this, I have to disagree with Sigaba's warning. I don't think that a well-written writing sample and SOP would raise a red flag if your verbal score is low. I think it's much likelier that the essays are taken as the true indication of an applicant's writing abilities, and not the GRE scores. The GPA and GRE scores are more often used for cutoffs so that your low score puts your application at the risk of being tossed without being thoroughly read, in which case your well-written essays will not save you. But once your application is given serious consideration, the essays and recommendations are the most important part of the application. I think in your case you should seriously consider improving your studying strategies and retaking the exam. In addition, if you have a close enough relationship with your recommenders I would suggest asking at least one of them to address your verbal/writing abilities directly. That should remove all doubt about what your skills really are.

@Joe490 and @fuzzylogician

Thank you both for the feedback on my point. I do understand where you are coming from, fuzzylogician. And I understand your skepticism, Joe490. With that, I'd like to throw in another two cents to explain where I'm coming from.

The bases of that specific recommendation are parochial and therefore may not apply to Joe490's situation. Based upon my experiences in the Ivory Tower, the objective of "holding the line" against grade inflation is a growing priority. Moreover, within the discipline of history and especially within my fields of interest, there are ongoing concerns with plagiarism. Additionally, there's an ongoing debate over what constitutes plagiarism. Finally, during my work as a T.A. I've seen first-hand unrealistically wide discrepancies between the quality of a timed exam and subsequent performance on an essay prepared off campus. So, from where I sit, there's a lot room for concern if the component parts of an undergraduate's academic experiences and metrics don't fit together.

So my recommendation that Joe490--in light of his specific situation--be careful is aimed so his overall application and its supporting materials present a "balanced narrative." Within this narrative, the quality of the LoR and the writing samples would make sense when weighed against the GPA and the GRE scores. In my estimation, too much support from a well-intended academic, especially if the GRE verbal scores end up being very low, could unintentionally skew this narrative.

One last point, I did not intend for my suggestions here to be taken as a la carte options on a menu. To be clear, I certainly would not begrudge Joe490, or anyone else, for taking some, all or none of any recommendation I offer on this BB. That being said, in this specific case, the recommendation re the LoR dovetails with the suggestion for school visits and face to face discussions so that the Powers That Be could see the total package and conclude that Joe490 either had an off day when he took the GRE or to conclude that he needs to develop his standardized test taking skills and that graduate program X is just the place for him to do just that.

[FrightenedProspectiveMPP]

@joe490

Do note that for NYU, submitting the GRE is not mandatory. They suggest that if you DO submit your scores, that they be above the 50th percentile. Your strategy for this school at least should be clear -- don't submit your GRE scores! I am not knowledgeable enough to assess the other aspects of your application, but I wish you the best.

[joe490]

@Sigaba: I understand your point in regard to the "balanced narrative." Thanks again for bringing it up. I can see where this could potentially raise a flag, though I truly hope schools do not correlate GRE scores directly with intelligence, since standardized testing is a one-time, very situational occurrence versus a GPA/transcript reflecting 4 years of academic achievement or LoR's which reflect the stances of professors who have worked with students for lengthy periods of time (or at least lengthy enough to be able to compose an articulate argument of a students' potential.) I see your point in regard to academic integrity, where some students skew the generalization with plagiarism and other false intent.

@Frightened: I'm not sure if it varies program to program, but for the Sociology Ph.D GRE scores are mandatory, so I'm stuck submitting whatever I get.

I'm pleasantly surprised with the amount of responses I'm receiving here. As I said in the beginning, this is a fantastic resource for grad students. Thanks so much everyone, and if anyone has anything else to add, I truly appreciate it!

[FrightenedProspectiveMPP]

@joe

Sorry about that, I got completely mixed up and thought this was a board for just MPP/MPA applicants. Somehow I managed to jump right over that line in your OP. Still, best of luck to you.

[Sarahmarie]

Joe-

From the financial perspective, I know that ETS (the company that gives the GRE) gives a certain number of Fee Reduction Waivers to every school's Financial Aid department. If your estimated family contribution on your FAFSA is $1800 or less, they can give you a waiver for a 50% reduction in the fee for the test. If that applies to you, contact your school's fin aid and ask about it. The info is also on the ETS website here http://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/about/fees/reductions/