Am I competitive for top programs?

[tt503]

My dream school is Wisconsin (like almost everybody else's), but I also really like Yale, Notre Dame and UCSD (I'm also looking at interdisciplinary programs outside sociology that also fit my interests, like Columbia's MESAAS--which has a strong theory emphasis). My interests are mostly sociology of religion, culture, historical and comparative, and theory.

I wasn't a sociology major in undergrad (which was 10 years ago), but I took two courses at the lower Ivy that I'm currently attending (Classical Soc. Theory and a research methods course), and received A's in those.

My stats...

I have a double major in English and Religion with an appallingly low ug (10 years ago) from a private, no-name liberal arts school. (this is what has kept me out thus far...I'm re-taking the GRE to overcome this weakness).

I have a M.A. in a historical, interdisciplinary field (3.7+)

I will have an M.S. in a social science field from an Ivy (3.8+)

I have published an article in a book (gender theory and religion), and a poster presentation (international agriculture).

I have presented at an international conference (religion).

I have taught five undergraduate courses as the primary instructor (with two different institutions)

I'm a TA at the Ivy, and have done three classes (Two in religion, one in Bio and Environmental Engineering)

I have research experience in 5 languages (though 3 of them are dead languages and not relevant to anything whatsoever), and am at the intermediate level in both Arabic and Hebrew.

I have overseas fieldwork experience with a top Ivy.

Undergraduate/Graduate awards, an internship and all that stuff.

I'm not applying until 2012 because I want to re-take the GREs and get a ridiculously high score. Do I seem competitive for these types of schools?

I'm not really interested in rank, but really what I like in the programs and where I think I could succeed. If there are other programs that you think I should look at, feel free to let me know.

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

Sure sounds like it.

[tt503]

I'm just nervous because past posts (on this site) seem to indicate a severe deficiency in your app if you didn't study sociology as an ug (and like I mentioned, my ugpa was low, even X<3.0)...

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

Well, I can see it being a small issue in that you're going to have to take some extra courses that someone who has already got a bachelors or masters in sociology would have taken but other than that you seem very well qualified.

Also, you're going to want to take into account rank/prestige of your university. I find sociology as an ironic (possibly hypocritical field in a sense) in that it is a discipline that studies the effects of stratification/unequal opportunities and the like yet it is a field that highly reinforces and recreates this stratified culture basing so heavily off of prestige.

What are you looking to do with your PhD? Teach and research? If so, the higher ranked university the better. If you're going to take a year off I suggest possibly getting in touch with some people you're going to want to work with in the future and get some advice on your situation (not having a sociology background). I can't see it harming you THAT much when you have such an extensive background as you've listed though.

[shibboleth]

I would say that you are a potentially very competitive applicant. Of course, on these forums it is quite difficult to convey a lot of key intangibles.

Especially for those who have been out of undergrad for some time- by far the most important part of your application is going to be the statement of purpose. You're going to need to coherently and convincingly tie together all of your many pertinent experiences to convey that you're a serious scholar who will be a big asset to a top PhD program. Everything in your application needs to be building up to this eventuality. It sounds like you've got plenty to draw on, but you need to start brainstorming early. For those of us with a lot of diverse experiences (both academic and professional) since our college days, the statement of purpose can be very difficult to write. I'm in a similar boat, with a background that is both interdisciplinary and wide-ranging. As someone who just finished up this process, I have a lot of sympathy. My SOP tied together a natural science bachelors, an international development master's, several years of research management, and a whole slew of projects, teaching assignments, and relevant experiences in-between. If your application isn't tied together with a succinct knock-out SOP, it can start to look like the applicant is simply collecting random experience. Numerous folks have advised me that a stellar SOP is absolutely key to admission to top programs. While the SOP won't make up for other parts of an application that may be lacking, it's the only way the adcoms can get a sense for where you place yourself as an academic. You need to show exactly how what you're doing and where you've been make the PhD a natural next step. You need to convey that you are familiar with the literature and are already well on your way to being successful as an academic. It may sound easy, but this is very difficult to do in just 500 or 1,000 words. You'll get to submit a CV as well, but keep in mind that it may not even be read (several faculty at a couple of top programs told me as much).

The one thing that concerns me as I read the outline of your background/accomplishments is your publishing record. True, most applicants to sociology PhD programs are going to be coming straight out of undergrad and therefore will not be expected to have any publications (some will, but almost always as a second or third author on an advisor's research). But, as you have a couple of master's degrees and other types of research experience under your belt, you will have to clear a higher bar of academic standards . A book chapter is certainly impressive, but may not be as impressive as a peer-reviewed journal article. Or, for that matter, a chapter AND a peer-reviewed journal article. Is the book peer-reviewed? Are you the sole chapter author? Can you think about revising the chapter and submitting it to a few journals before next fall's application season? The answers to these questions are going to be pretty important. Since you already have so much graduate education under your belt - and your associated extensive teaching experience is certainly going to help your application a lot - you're also going to be expected to have been producing at least some academic scholarship. Depending on how you frame it in your SOP, and how much research/work went into it, a book chapter may be "enough," but it will be one of the most key parts of your application. Again, several professors at top programs have expressed this information to me as an applicant in a situation similar to yours.

Your reference letters are also going to be key. Make sure you start talking to your referees early on in the process. Let them know how you're framing your application in your SOP, and (in addition to the usual obvious things like making sure they will write you a very positive and detailed letter) make sure they know why you're applying and how passionate you are about getting a PhD. Having a letter say something along the lines of "Sarah is a fantastic researcher and knows exactly what she's getting into with a PhD" is priceless.

As far as the GRE is concerned, how bad were your previous scores? I would keep in mind that the importance of the GRE tends to be overblown on sites like this one. It's one of the few supposedly "levelling" metrics, so it gets a lot of lip service, but in truth it is usually one of the least important parts of the application as a whole. Obviously, your scores need to be decent enough that they won't raise eyebrows. Adcoms, whether they admit it formally or not, usually do have various "cutoffs" when making the first pass at applications. And higher scores are certainly going to play in your favor. But, once you're in the pile of applicants who are getting seriously considered, professors are looking much deeper than stellar GRE scores. This is when your SOP and recc's get read with a fine-toothed comb. General advice I've heard for top programs is that if your GRE's are in the range of the average for admitted applicants, you're far better off spending your time (and $) improving other aspects of your application.

That being said, there are always exceptions. If your stats are the most impressive aspect of you as an applicant (say, if you're coming straight from undergrad), it may do you well to improve your scores - especially if you have reason to believe that there will be a dramatic improvement. A friend of mine was wait-listed at a tip-top Political Science program with only an undergraduate degree under her belt. She was eventually admitted off the wait-list, and decided to matriculate in the program. When she arrived, she found that everyone else in her cohort was a much more seasoned and impressive researcher. Most had published articles, master's degrees, etc.. it was an intimidating place to begin. She believes the only reason she even made the wait-list was a perfect score on the GRE. This, combined with a near perfect GPA from a decent undergraduate institution, were the most impressive aspects of her as an applicant. Those students who had been admitted before her were far more impressive in their substantive credentials (and, incidentally, all had good but not perfect GRE's & GPA's).

[sciencegirl]

I'm going to chime and say that you are certainly competitive - but again, nothing is certain, and the low undergrad GPA is annoyingly something that will stick with you... was it below a 3.0? If so, things might be really difficult since for many top schools you will need an exception granted or something like that (a friend of mine had a below 3.0 GPA and was applying to the UC schools for a humanities phD. A program accepted him but had to jump through some administrative hoops to get him in.

The thing that will make you stand out (hopefully in a good way) is the time off from UG, and why you are now applying... what are the reasons? It seems that religion is the one constant in your academic interests.. was it just finding the right framework for what you are interested in? What are your goals? Is it research or teaching? I believe many of the public schools - even the top ones such as Wisconsin - are more realistic goals than the Ivy's, only because your chances are better.. doesn't Wisconsin/Berkeley/UCLA accept around 20-40 a year, while Harvard/Princeton/Stanford might not take more than 10? The public schools just have larger cohorts and may be more inclined to balance their classes with students not just out of UG.

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

Oh, also, since you're into religion, here are some universities I applied to that are good in religion (my areas of interests are theory, religion, and social movements)

UPenn

PSU

Yale

Purdue

Notre Dame

UTexas-Austin

Princeton

[tt503]

I'm going to chime and say that you are certainly competitive - but again, nothing is certain, and the low undergrad GPA is annoyingly something that will stick with you... was it below a 3.0? If so, things might be really difficult since for many top schools you will need an exception granted or something like that (a friend of mine had a below 3.0 GPA and was applying to the UC schools for a humanities phD. A program accepted him but had to jump through some administrative hoops to get him in.

Yes, my ugpa is lower than a 3.0. I asked a professor (the chair of a related dept. at my most recent school), and he said my best bet at overcoming that obstacle (in terms of clearing administrative hurdles) was a ridiculously high GRE...of course, every school differs...sigh.

Edited December 23, 2011 by tt503

[tt503]

Oh, also, since you're into religion, here are some universities I applied to that are good in religion (my areas of interests are theory, religion, and social movements)

UPenn

PSU

Yale

Purdue

Notre Dame

UTexas-Austin

Princeton

Notre Dame as their 2011-2012 reading list published, which is really helpful for independent study. I really like their dept. a lot.

[sciencegirl]

Hey tt503, I think a high GRE score would help, but I think anything in the 80th or 90th percentile is a great score. It almost seems like what you are thinking of is trying to ace the test with perfect 170s which IMHO is just a waste of energy and very self-defeating. My big fear with your approach is that you are going to think your entire application depends on acing this one test to "make up" for your GPA, and in reality, a good GRE score won't cancel the other out. (This isn't a law school app where they have formulas that add your GPA with your LSAT score, where a low score on one needs a high number on the other)

A better approach might be to just address the low GPA head on in your SOP - near the end of it, or to see if one of you letter writers can address it. The time off from undergrad will really help set some distance.

Also, try to get to know some of the graduate students in some of the programs you want to get into.. and maybe they will have better advice.. perhaps they sat in on an adcom meeting where a low GPA came up with an applicant, and what this person did to mitigate this.

[rising_star]

The one thing that concerns me as I read the outline of your background/accomplishments is your publishing record. True, most applicants to sociology PhD programs are going to be coming straight out of undergrad and therefore will not be expected to have any publications (some will, but almost always as a second or third author on an advisor's research). But, as you have a couple of master's degrees and other types of research experience under your belt, you will have to clear a higher bar of academic standards . A book chapter is certainly impressive, but may not be as impressive as a peer-reviewed journal article. Or, for that matter, a chapter AND a peer-reviewed journal article. Is the book peer-reviewed? Are you the sole chapter author? Can you think about revising the chapter and submitting it to a few journals before next fall's application season? The answers to these questions are going to be pretty important. Since you already have so much graduate education under your belt - and your associated extensive teaching experience is certainly going to help your application a lot - you're also going to be expected to have been producing at least some academic scholarship. Depending on how you frame it in your SOP, and how much research/work went into it, a book chapter may be "enough," but it will be one of the most key parts of your application. Again, several professors at top programs have expressed this information to me as an applicant in a situation similar to yours.

This is interesting advice. I highly doubt the OP can publish the book chapter in a peer-reviewed journal because journals require authors to stipulate that the material has not been published elsewhere. This is why people commonly turn published articles into book chapters and not the other way around. Furthermore, depending on the work done during a master's degree, it may not be worthy of a publication. There is no sense in trying to publish something that either isn't ready or isn't good enough to be in a journal that people might actually read. It's the mentality that you have that leads everyone to believe they absolutely must publish, regardless of the outlet. Will you be embarrassed by either the article or the journal 15 years from now? If so, don't even try to get it published.

[sciencegirl]

I agree about the "higher bar" part - but it also depends if OP is moving from a different field into Sociology, or staying in Sociology (perhaps the advice given to @shibboleth was if you are staying within the field of Soc from undergrad, taking a lot of time off in Soc. research and now applying to Soc phD programs). My guess is that if you are moving from another field, you need to show some excellence there, but more importantly, frame why you are moving into Soc. Over the last few months of applying, I met a few "older" students, and one came from law (a JD degree) and another came from a journalism masters... both didn't have too much Soc. research but their work in their respective former fields showed promise for Sociology. I asked them about having "Soc. papers" published - neither did, but were able to frame their applications successfully to convince the adcoms about their move. It seems that OP doesn't come from Sociology (As the MA and MS are in "historical" and "social science" fields, but my guess is that neither is strict sociology per se) - and this probably makes a difference about the importance of their publishing record.

[JohnBom]

True, most applicants to sociology PhD programs are going to be coming straight out of undergrad and therefore will not be expected to have any publications (some will, but almost always as a second or third author on an advisor's research).

Not true. Most people have a master's or at least a little bit of professional experience. Admission committees tend to be vary of people straight from undergrad. The average age of an entering student is late twenties.

[tt503]

It seems that OP doesn't come from Sociology (As the MA and MS are in "historical" and "social science" fields, but my guess is that neither is strict sociology per se) - and this probably makes a difference about the importance of their publishing record.

I don't have a degree in sociology, rather they are Jewish Studies and International Development. I took a general sociology course 10+ years ago, and I've taken two courses (on Classical Sociological Theory and research methods) at the Ivy where I'm finishing up. I'm currently TA-ing and working on my thesis, which I hope to submit some chapters from it to conferences in the upcoming year.

Edited December 27, 2011 by tt503

[ohhello]

From the grad students I've talked to in my undergraduate department, past degrees don't really matter. I know a grad student who has a BS in mechanical engineering, another who has a BA in political science, another in linguistics, another in economics, etc. You might have to put more effort into your coursework the first year or so, but that shouldn't hinder your application.

Edited December 28, 2011 by ohhello

[sciencegirl]

@tt503 To adequately answer you original question, I think you are a strong candidate, but apply broadly and widely... the only real negative is the below 3.0 ugpa. You will need to have one of your LOR address this, IMHO, and maybe even address it *briefly* near the end of your SOP. If Wisconsin is your dream program, I would try to make contact with some people in the program somehow.. start with grad students, friends of friends of friends... or meet them at a conference, grad students whose interests intersect with yours. Make a good impression on them. If they think you are a strong candidate, they may provide you with an introduction to some faculty there.

Do well on the GRE's, but don't treat them as a golden ticket. @Jacib from last year's forum was really illuminating to read about... and perhaps you might be in a situation where you apply to many of the top 20 programs, but get into only a few, or 1 -- and as long as that 1 program is your dream program, you are all set

I would not worry about not being from a strict Sociology background. I am actually not from one per se (I have more a double major Science/American Studies background). I don't consider this a weakness -- and just played up my strengths instead in my SOP.

[Sociograd]

@SuperMOD....Thanks for your comment above. tt503, you obviously seem like a good candidate. I can only imagine how I would craft a statement with those kind of credentials.

[tt503]

Hey tt503, I think a high GRE score would help, but I think anything in the 80th or 90th percentile is a great score. It almost seems like what you are thinking of is trying to ace the test with perfect 170s which IMHO is just a waste of energy and very self-defeating.

I had a verbal score in the 85%+, and a quantitative as pretty average (I don't remember the exact percentile, but it was 600). Two professors called my scores "mediocre" and said I should only apply to PhDs with higher scores, if anything, to make sure I at least don't get shut out. I know it isn't a magic admit, but I am well aware of the fact that my scores can keep me out of great programs.

[Darth.Vegan]

I had a verbal score in the 85%+, and a quantitative as pretty average (I don't remember the exact percentile, but it was 600). Two professors called my scores "mediocre" and said I should only apply to PhDs with higher scores, if anything, to make sure I at least don't get shut out. I know it isn't a magic admit, but I am well aware of the fact that my scores can keep me out of great programs.

You need to remember that the percentile ranges of the verbal and quant sections are very different.

A 580 on verbal is 85th percentile.

A 600 on quant is 47th percentile.

[tt503]

You need to remember that the percentile ranges of the verbal and quant sections are very different.

A 580 on verbal is 85th percentile.

A 600 on quant is 47th percentile.

I understand that. At the time, I was applying to Religious Studies programs that weren't heavy in quant. Hence, why I'm studying harder this time around for the GRE.

[Darth.Vegan]

I understand that. At the time, I was applying to Religious Studies programs that weren't heavy in quant. Hence, why I'm studying harder this time around for the GRE.

I wish you luck. I am studying for the GRE now too and I hate it.

It really seems so pointless, I am using up precious time studying for the GRE that I could be using reading more literature for my soc. classes and working on my research.

You know the kinds of things that would ACTUALLY help me in grad school.

Hope it all works out (for the both of us!). You sound really competitive.

[tt503]

Thanks. Basically, I was told that both scores should be over the (old) 700 mark. I have about 8 months to do it, I'm not sweating it.

I hear you about the working on research part. I'm developing my thesis and another paper to present at AAR (hopefully), and TAing. It's going to be a rough semester.

Good luck with everything!