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Classics Ph.D and No Language Experience


CBowling

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Hi all!

I posted this on the college confidential website, but I came across this one which is aimed strictly for grad students, so I figured I might get a better informed answer than there.

To start with, I am in my fourth year of my undergraduate degree and I plan on graduating with a BA in European Studies/History in May of 2012. However, I am only going for the European Studies degree because that was the closest thing we had to a Classics undergrad at my school. (University of West Florida in Pensacola). This institution, however, has left me extremely limited in terms of Latin and Greek, for it offers neither for any student to study, so I am left with trying to teach myself. I have had a semester of Latin at a community college before I transferred, but I know that will not be nearly enough.

This leads me to my question: What do you all recommend I do? I want to become a Classics professor someday (I am aiming to get a Ph.D) but I know that I am severely behind on the language requirements. I know that if I applied to a Ph.D program right now that I would not get accept. I know there are Post-Bac programs, but I am unsure if those programs are for those without any prior knowledge, or if they are made to simply expand and intensify the education of those already experienced in Latin and Greek.

I also have heard of "terminal MA's" that might be able to get me in the right track. (I've never actually heard of a terminal MA, so I don't really know what it means.) Needless to say, I have done plenty of research and taken several courses relating to the history, art, and culture of the Greeks and Romans and I have put a great deal of effort into studying the subject in my spare time, though I am probably no where near the knowledge of a Classics BA. However, my biggest pitfall is the language requirement.

Right now, I am looking to going to school somewhere in Europe, like St. Andrews, Exeter, UCL, or one of those other universities for a Ph.D. Before that, I was looking to getting an MLitt at UCD possibly (cost wise, UCD wasn't too bad). Will I be able to pick up on Latin and Greek while going for a degree at any of these universities, or will I have to already be extremely proficient in the language first? How about if I pursue an MA or MLitt first before a Ph.D?

Sorry for the long post. I am just really confused about everything and really worried that I might not be able to go for a degree in the field that I love simply because of the lack of opportunities in the area I am at currently.

Thanks for any advice,

Chris

EDIT:

I'd also be willing to go to school in the US as well, like at FSU or, probably my top pick, Michigan. But I know that they want experience in the languages so I am still stuck on this point.

And I guess this can lead to another question:

Is it better for me to get a Classics Ph.D at one of the top-tier schools in the US, or will a UK school be just as "prestigious" and allow for a better chance at getting tenure?

Edited by CBowling
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Hi there Chris. I'll answer your question real quick, and then give you some suggestions on what you could do based on my own experience. Unless you have 3-4 years of experience in both Latin and Greek with a high GPA, you will have an extremely difficult time getting into a Ph.D program in classics (and by extremely difficult, I mean the chances are close to nil...if you have 2 years of both, you may have a slight chance).

I too graduated with a BA in history from a school that had no formal classics department. I had 3 semesters of Latin and 2 semesters of Greek...which was just barely enough to get me into UPenn's post-bac. The post-bac has done a wonderful job catching me up with my languages and teaching me the finer points of Classics. Since I was a general history major...I was still surprisingly ignorant of the Classics despite my own reading on the subject.

It sounds to me that you need to look into post-bac programs and terminal MA programs. It will be the most efficient way to get caught up on those languages (unfortunately reading Latin on your own doesn't count for much to graduate committees...they want to see a GPA and specific coursework). I can vouch for Penn's post-bac. It is very difficult, but the professors whip you into shape, and if you perform well, they will write you a good recommendation letter. Other post-bacs you can consider include: UCLA, Georgetown, Columbia, and UNC. I believe any one of these would set you on the right track (unfortunately they are all unfunded...Penn's costs about 10,000 for tuition).

You should also look into terminal MA programs. Many of them are guaranteed funding:

WashU in St. Louis

Notre Dame

Vanderbilt

These are all well funded with a stipend...which means they are almost as competitive as the Ph.D programs! I know Vanderbilt only accepts 2 or 3. Some are not guaranteed funding, but are worth applying to, ie. University of Georgia. If I were you, I would apply to 5 or 6 MA programs and 3 post-bac programs. If you apply to Ph.D programs, you will be competing against applicants with an MA and 4-5 years of experience in both languages.

Best wishes!

Andrew

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Thanks for the quick reply Andrew!

It sounds like the Post-Bac or Terminal MA options are the best at my current level, but I do have a question concerning this:

I too graduated with a BA in history from a school that had no formal classics department. I had 3 semesters of Latin and 2 semesters of Greek...which was just barely enough to get me into UPenn's post-bac. The post-bac has done a wonderful job catching me up with my languages and teaching me the finer points of Classics. Since I was a general history major...I was still surprisingly ignorant of the Classics despite my own reading on the subject.

This part makes it sound like you need to have some language experience before getting accepted to most Post-Bacs or MA's. Is that the case? If so, then I am at a disadvantage since I have had 0 experience in Greek and only 1 semester of Latin at the local CC.

Thanks for any clarity you can bring to this!

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Penn claims that you need an "intermediate" level of both languages to be accepted into the post-bac. But I know they have accepted some people who have had 0 in one language or the other. The MA's typically want you to have 1-2 years of both. And as I said, the funded MA programs are as competitive as the Ph.D programs. I don't know what the other post-bacs require. All I can say is...you need more languages, and you have a year to do it. So whether that means taking more Latin at that community college or something else, I'd recommend you to do it. Check if your school offers Koine Greek if it has a Divinity school. I got into the Penn post-bac with Koine Greek experience, and I integrated well into Attic and Homeric.

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The terminal MA's you listed will all require a substantial amount of Greek and Latin. The choices, as I see it, are:

1. Enroll at another University for another BA, this time in Classics.

2. Apply for a terminal MA/MTS/MDiv in theology and spend the 2/3 years there doing a lot of languages (this is what I have done -- I went into my MA with only 2 years of Greek; now I have much more, plus Hebrew, Latin, and Aramaic).

3. Community College for Latin and Greek. While this may be your cheapest option, I have had friends in the past do this and they worked at about 1/2 the speed of my University (of course, not all created equal).

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Aye, that is just as I feared.

Is there any degree that allows me to focus on the history part of Greece and Rome, and allows me to begin taking the languages while in grad school? Like an Ancient History MA or Ph.D program? Then, once I do that and build up my languages, I can go back and get a Classics Ph.D perhaps?

I was looking at the University of Michigan Greco and Roman History degree, which mixes the history and Classics department. Though it is a Ph.D program, I was wondering if I could perhaps get an MA somewhere, like a HIstory MA or an Ancient HIstory MA, and build up my languages and then apply for that program at Michigan? I noticed that the University of Edinburgh offers Beginning Latin and Greek to their grad students, so this makes me think that their language requirements might be more lax than others (though I don't know the quality of their program.)

Thank you all, though, for the advice. The Theology degree would be interesting, but would they take someone with as little experience in the languages as I have?

Here is the Michigan Program I talked about I(though the deadline for applications is past, and it seems they want grad school experience before you can apply)

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ipgrh/aboutus

Edited by CBowling
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Check out Harvard Divinity's MTS. It would allow you that flexibility, I think. The other Masters programs in theology are going to require some "lame" courses you are not interested in. But I suppose it might be better than doing another BA?

Also check out Brandeis' program: http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/classics/

I almost applied to the program but realized it wasn't best for my interests. The program is only a year, but it would prolly be enough to get you into some post-bacc programs, or a Masters. When I spoke with them months ago I think they said they offer most applicants (accepted) 50% off tuition.

best.

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You should look into registering abroad as a visiting student, perhaps. Usually, language courses in Europe are more rigorous. [i did 3 semesters as a visiting student in Germany and also studied French while there]. You might also consider moving to a city like Boston, New York or some other city with great continuing education options. Harvard has an extension school, for example, that has no enrollment criteria and offers many courses taught be Harvard or other local faculty from Brandeis, UMASS and Tufts. A part time job waiting tables might pay for a year's adventure in Cambridge or some similar town.

Latin:

http://cdn.dce.harva...ourses/lati.jsp

Greek:

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/courses/subject/greek

Edited by Grunty DaGnome
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The Theology degree would be interesting, but would they take someone with as little experience in the languages as I have?

Yes. Theology M* programs take in students from all sorts of backgrounds. I had German but no Latin when I started my master's; other people I know came in with zero language skills. You'd have to sell the program on the idea that you are interested in something to do with religious history, of course. (I am a big advocate of using religion master's degrees, for which it is relatively easier to get at least some financial aid, in place of degrees in less-frequently funded subjects).

What is your financial and geographical flexibility like? Many schools offer an intensive summer intro Latin class that *should* give you a reasonable basis for translation, although by no means is sufficient for in-depth research. They're usually open to outside students. There are a few places that have Greek as well. If you take this option, do some checking into the reputation of the school you choose. I would NOT, for example, recommend the intro class I took. (HAHAHAHA...

That said, I highly recommend you work with a tutor if you are trying to learn as much as you can in a short time. (Maybe see if your former prof at the CC tutors, or knows someone else who would help?) That made a big difference for me. Also, just being willing to spend ridiculous amounts of time and spiritual angst translating passages. This is not formal coursework, of course, but if you get a letter of recommendation from your tutor that could also substitute for proof that you really do know the language. (My dept suggests a few other ways for prospective students with no coursework in Latin to prove their knowledge, like submiting results from the SAT II Latin test or UToronto's Latin exam. I don't know about Greek, though).

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Yes. Theology M* programs take in students from all sorts of backgrounds. I had German but no Latin when I started my master's; other people I know came in with zero language skills. You'd have to sell the program on the idea that you are interested in something to do with religious history, of course. (I am a big advocate of using religion master's degrees, for which it is relatively easier to get at least some financial aid, in place of degrees in less-frequently funded subjects).

What is your financial and geographical flexibility like? Many schools offer an intensive summer intro Latin class that *should* give you a reasonable basis for translation, although by no means is sufficient for in-depth research. They're usually open to outside students. There are a few places that have Greek as well. If you take this option, do some checking into the reputation of the school you choose. I would NOT, for example, recommend the intro class I took. (HAHAHAHA...

That said, I highly recommend you work with a tutor if you are trying to learn as much as you can in a short time. (Maybe see if your former prof at the CC tutors, or knows someone else who would help?) That made a big difference for me. Also, just being willing to spend ridiculous amounts of time and spiritual angst translating passages. This is not formal coursework, of course, but if you get a letter of recommendation from your tutor that could also substitute for proof that you really do know the language. (My dept suggests a few other ways for prospective students with no coursework in Latin to prove their knowledge, like submiting results from the SAT II Latin test or UToronto's Latin exam. I don't know about Greek, though).

You seem to hate that class you took (remember you mentioning it before, haha). I'm curious what was so terrible about it? *preparing popcorn*

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Ah, hold the popcorn--it actually wasn't a bad class in sweeping cinematic terms, just worthless for the purposes of actually knowing Latin. The prof for that class was the tutor who helped me pass the Latin translation exam for that program. She's fantastic, no slam on her, but rather on the scheduling of my MA school that tries to shoehorn an 8-week class into six weeks.

If your appetite for popcorn is stoked, however, I can talk a little about what it was like to go from "knowing Latin" according to the standards of my MA school, to the Latin class I took (had to take) the first semester of my PhD. :lol: Different school, different standards...OH MY GOSH they are different standards. We can begin, perhaps, with the fact that I handed in an almost completely blank midterm? :blink::wacko: Seriously, I've never before or since been in a class where every single answer I gave for just about the entire semester was wrong. (The prof asked a question about the comparative ablative that I knew and no one else did--probably because I had read the chapter on uses of the ablative in yet another intro textbook the night before. Yes, I remember this very clearly, because it was the only time I got something right).

(ETA: I agree with the standards of PhD school for anyone working with source materials in Latin. MA school's standards are looser because a large number of people going through that program do not, actually, have to know Latin. #$^&@ Americanists.)

My passing the class was due in part to the eternal patience of the prof, but mostly to the fact that I spent an absolutely insane amount of time translating (or "translating") every word of every assignment, without ever looking up a published English translation to check. In contrast to what I always say on TGC, I actually *do* believe that you can teach yourself Latin, especially with occasional access to a tutor or just someone to ask about the sticky bit. I'm just highly, highly skeptical that people are willing--or capable--of putting in the required effort and sheer time outside a structured situation like a class or tutoring.

And in conclusion for those in TV land who have yet to learn Latin: please, please don't try to do what I did and go from "hey, I can translate this one text that I have already translated with someone else's help and that I specifically chose because there is no easier author" to a class that dumps Tertullian on you the second week and requires dictionaryless translation for the final. Your sanity will take upwards of a year to recover.

Edited by Sparky
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It sounds like you've been getting a lot of good advice here but I thought I'd just add a little. You seem really intent on trying to get an MA and, not to be a downer, but you really aren't at the right level to start a Classics MA. I don't know a lot about history programs with a focus on Classical history but my guess is that in a history focused MA you'll spend a lot of time in history/civ courses which won't really allow you to get your languages up to speed (my guess also is you would need better language prep even for such a program). In Classics MAs you take 3 or 4 languages classes a semester and applying to a PhD with an MA thats what schools would expect to see.

I think you should look into taking more undergrad classes in languages, either transfer schools now and do an extra year, or enroll in language courses outside your intstitution for a year or two. Then I would say you'd ready for a post-bac year (schools want 2-3 yrs above intro level generally) and then could try your hand at MA and PhD programs. I'm in one of the terminal MA programs mentioned above and our 3 new grad students this year all came in from a post-bac, so even MAs are getting more competitive and need better preparation.

If its what you really want to do, then don't give up, but accept that its gonna take you a little longer to get there. You'll have to put in the grunt work first. I'm applying to PhDs with 10 yrs of Latin and 4 of Greek and I'm not even sure if I'll get in, so especially if you want to go top teir, get the languages before you start thinking of grad school.

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Thanks for all the sound advice everyone. I will put forth my options and discuss things with the important people in my life (parents, girlfriend, advisors and close professors) and make a decision once I figure out what I truly wish to do. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out!

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Ah, hold the popcorn--it actually wasn't a bad class in sweeping cinematic terms, just worthless for the purposes of actually knowing Latin. The prof for that class was the tutor who helped me pass the Latin translation exam for that program. She's fantastic, no slam on her, but rather on the scheduling of my MA school that tries to shoehorn an 8-week class into six weeks.

If your appetite for popcorn is stoked, however, I can talk a little about what it was like to go from "knowing Latin" according to the standards of my MA school, to the Latin class I took (had to take) the first semester of my PhD. :lol: Different school, different standards...OH MY GOSH they are different standards. We can begin, perhaps, with the fact that I handed in an almost completely blank midterm? :blink::wacko: Seriously, I've never before or since been in a class where every single answer I gave for just about the entire semester was wrong. (The prof asked a question about the comparative ablative that I knew and no one else did--probably because I had read the chapter on uses of the ablative in yet another intro textbook the night before. Yes, I remember this very clearly, because it was the only time I got something right).

(ETA: I agree with the standards of PhD school for anyone working with source materials in Latin. MA school's standards are looser because a large number of people going through that program do not, actually, have to know Latin. #$^&@ Americanists.)

My passing the class was due in part to the eternal patience of the prof, but mostly to the fact that I spent an absolutely insane amount of time translating (or "translating") every word of every assignment, without ever looking up a published English translation to check. In contrast to what I always say on TGC, I actually *do* believe that you can teach yourself Latin, especially with occasional access to a tutor or just someone to ask about the sticky bit. I'm just highly, highly skeptical that people are willing--or capable--of putting in the required effort and sheer time outside a structured situation like a class or tutoring.

And in conclusion for those in TV land who have yet to learn Latin: please, please don't try to do what I did and go from "hey, I can translate this one text that I have already translated with someone else's help and that I specifically chose because there is no easier author" to a class that dumps Tertullian on you the second week and requires dictionaryless translation for the final. Your sanity will take upwards of a year to recover.

Sounds scary! I had a somewhat similar, although not as extreme, experience with Greek. Glad to hear your Latin is finally at the PhD level! From my experience taking a doctoral level Greek course I can relate. I am taking a doctoral level Hebrew class this semester, so hopefully I do well enough ;).

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  • 1 month later...

I'm late to this topic but if you're really wanting to focus on languages and the study of classics in general, I'd recommend the UNC post-bac program.

http://classics.unc....t-baccalaureate

The faculty is wonderful at arranging a schedule that works for everyone. You'll also be in good company too, students studying it out of interest, to go into a PhD program, looking to become teachers, etc. They also provide post-bac students with full access to their resources, classes, libraries, regular lectures/discussions/lunches/etc.

If you're out of state, the first year tuition will be rather steep at about 16.5k (for the year) but obtaining in-state residency for subsequent years is rather straight forward in NC.

You should also check out:

http://www.summer-classics.com/

They keep an updated list of colleges offering intensive summer language courses - Berkeley's is highly regarded and most students come out placing on exams at about the 1.5-2 year (3-4 semesters) mark.

Edited by Balatro
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skimmed, but don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: if you want to take language courses outside of or in preparation for a post-bacc, you don't need to take them at community college. you can register as a non-degree student at lots of world class universities (although you may have to apply for this status) and pay for classes by credit. it will cost more than community college, but you will learn more and it will look more respectable. for example, someone above mentioned Harvard Extension School, but you're probably better off in terms of preparation for graduate school applying as a special student and then taking classes through Harvard college of arts and sciences proper. this will be about 4k per class, so cost of course is an issue, but can get prepared for masters programs this way.

also, if your able to go to europe and take some classes that is a GREAT idea, since in addition to getting excellent training european universities are so cheap as to basically be free.

good luck!

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  • 1 month later...

Hey CBowling, I was/still am in the same position as you. I got my undergraduate degree in History at the University of Dayton with a year of poorly taught Latin. The classical historian there took me under his wing and helped me look for post bacc schools, and I'll be starting at Loyola Chicago in the fall. They allow you to enter with 0 skill in either language, something that WashU turned me down for. Luckily, I took a year of Greek at a local University which got me up to a 200 level course for the fall. I'm hoping the edge in languages will help me get into an archaeology program when it's all said and done.

Sorry for the late response. Good luck!

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