Upcoming Visit Advice...

[sciencegirl]

Hey all, I saw this on another forum, loved it. It's advice for those of you going to visit upcoming programs at admit events:

This is based on experience from six rushes. Any example or issue I raise is from an actual event.

(1) Don't be a jerk. I can tell you this because I am, in fact, a jerk.

(2) Business casual is fine. If you want to add a blazer to your shirt and slacks, that's cool, but don't be a jerk about it. No shiny Ed Hardy shirts.

(3) Ask if you can sit in a class or two. If you do, don't be a jerk in class. You're there to observe, not to interrupt. If the professor asks you a question or something, go ahead and participate, but don't be a jerk about it.

An example on (3). Last year, we had a guy sit in our (highly technical) dynamic modeling class. He happened to sit in the dryest, hardest lecture of the year. So the professor proves a theorem on the board that has us all panting and trembling, and he writes out "for all" on the board in doing so. During break, the prospective student rocks up to the professor and is alike "Hey, why did you write out 'for all' instead of using the upside-down A? That would have been more rigorous.'" Don't be like that. That's jerky.

(4) If you are a jerk when you are drunk, then do not drink too much. If you are fun when you are drunk (but not a fun jerk---there are fun jerks out there), wait until the faculty are gone and then rock the f**k out.

(5) You can ask professors if they're happy at Department X, but don't be a jerk about it. Don't ask if they have a mortgage or anything. That's jerky. If they're unhappy, they'll say so in code. Don't press.

(6) Don't be a jerk on academic grounds. Don't talk down to people. Don't tell people they *need* to read a paper or a book. Don't talk about your own research unless asked. Don't say you published unless it's a real journal. Like, a real journal.

(7) Ask the students the hard questions, but don't be a jerk about it. Ask about their research to get a sense of the training. Don't feign being impressed, but don't get too critical. Ask what they're happy about, what they're unhappy about. Be discriminating-seeming but not critical.

(8) Don't be a jerk about other schools you're considering. Not everything you see at Department X reminds you of something you might see on your pending visit at Department Y. You don't have to rattle off your list all the live-long day; that's jerky. You came to visit and learn more about Department X, so stick to that.

(9) Don't be a jerk about stipends just yet. If you want to ask for more, visit day isn't the day to do it. That's really jerky.

(10) Don't be a jerk with the other visitors. Don't probe them constantly. Don't seem indifferent. If you go to Department X, then these people will be your all-nighter buddies during problem sets; your comp stress empathizers; your idea-bouncers. Don't get that off on the wrong foot.

(11) Seem like somebody that faculty and grad students will want to work with. The best way to do that is to avoid being a jerk.

And no, your offer won't be revoked if you're a jerk. But impressions matter. They matter with potential advisors, with other grad cohortmates you might coauthor with, with older grad students that might offer well-timed advice. You may think you've made it (and you have, and your achievements should be celebrated), but you'll be a lowly first-year soon enough. It's going to be a lot of fun, and you might as well get the experience off on the right foot.

[sociology27]

I like this list. It reminds me of The Presentation of the Self in Everyday Life.

[jenjenjen]

Finally someone who says graduate school is going to be fun!

[socspice]

I like this list. It reminds me of The Presentation of the Self in Everyday Life.

That's funny because rumor has it that Goffman himself was, in fact, a jerk. See the "biographical materials" (interviews with people about Goffman) in the Erving Goffman Archives: http://cdclv.unlv.edu//ega/.

[svh]

I agree. Don't be a jerk. And don't act competitive. From what I've heard, grad schools and grad students want people that they can work cooperatively with. I heard some programs specifically weed out people who seem like they might be competitive in nature at these visits.

[ANLstyle]

thanks for this, sciencegirl!

[FertMigMort]

Not to freak anyone out, but we actually rescinded an offer 2 years ago because someone was such a jerk. He was a truly exceptional jerk and I am sure none of you lovely people would behave as he did. Older grad students will also take you aside and tell you horror stories to make you not want to come to the program if you are a jerk.

The only rule of visit weekend: Don't be a jerk.

Edited one more time: You are allowed to be a jerk about where else you applied. You don't have to tell people that. Don't tell people that unless you really, really want to. I will respect you for being a jerk about that.

Edited February 20, 2012 by FertMigMort

[FertMigMort]

*bump*

I'll out myself as an advanced student who has chaired two recruitment weekends and attended 5 recruitments myself. I'm not invovled in our current recruitment weekend, so I feel comfortable answering any questions you have. Some of it will be program specific, but I can try my best to give some general advice.

Ask away!

[Sociograd]

FertMigMort: I have a question. I was invited to an open house for prospective students. The letter stated that the offer was not a guarantee of admissions however. Have you heard of this type of thing? Do you know (in general) what percentages of applicants are admitted in such situations? I heard the department invites about 20-25 people, but new cohorts are between 8-12. It seems to me that even if the department invited 25 people, some of those people are still going to accept elsewhere. I know its kind of a particular question, but do you have any general advice on this?

[FertMigMort]

FertMigMort: I have a question. I was invited to an open house for prospective students. The letter stated that the offer was not a guarantee of admissions however. Have you heard of this type of thing? Do you know (in general) what percentages of applicants are admitted in such situations? I heard the department invites about 20-25 people, but new cohorts are between 8-12. It seems to me that even if the department invited 25 people, some of those people are still going to accept elsewhere. I know its kind of a particular question, but do you have any general advice on this?

From my perspective, it sounds like you might be on the waitlist. Unless the recruitment weekend includes a formal interview process, it's pretty unusual for a program to invite you unless you're already admitted. That's from my own personal experience and how our program handles waitlist students. Last year for example, we invited 25 students, 7 accepted and our 1 waitlist visitor was also accepted. We've also had situations where we invited 22 students, 18 accepted and none of our waitlisted students were accepted. Places like Rice and UC-Boulder have an interview built into the weekend, so it's kind of the final round before admittance.

Long story short, I don't think it's a guarantee, but it sounds like you have your foot in the door. Occasional late offers do happen as well.

[Sociograd]

From my perspective, it sounds like you might be on the waitlist. Unless the recruitment weekend includes a formal interview process, it's pretty unusual for a program to invite you unless you're already admitted. That's from my own personal experience and how our program handles waitlist students. Last year for example, we invited 25 students, 7 accepted and our 1 waitlist visitor was also accepted. We've also had situations where we invited 22 students, 18 accepted and none of our waitlisted students were accepted. Places like Rice and UC-Boulder have an interview built into the weekend, so it's kind of the final round before admittance.

Long story short, I don't think it's a guarantee, but it sounds like you have your foot in the door. Occasional late offers do happen as well.

Thanks for the advice!

[MashaMashaMasha]

*bump*

I'll out myself as an advanced student who has chaired two recruitment weekends and attended 5 recruitments myself. I'm not invovled in our current recruitment weekend, so I feel comfortable answering any questions you have. Some of it will be program specific, but I can try my best to give some general advice.

Ask away!

Great timing for this advice! I'm already accepted to MyU and headed to the recruitment weekend shortly. Two of my three POIs will be there, along with several current students. I've been out of school now for five years, so I'm actually quite nervous about holding my own in this crowd. Any advice on specific questions I should be asking, things to look for, or what students appreciate from prospectives?

Thanks!

[FertMigMort]

Great timing for this advice! I'm already accepted to MyU and headed to the recruitment weekend shortly. Two of my three POIs will be there, along with several current students. I've been out of school now for five years, so I'm actually quite nervous about holding my own in this crowd. Any advice on specific questions I should be asking, things to look for, or what students appreciate from prospectives?

Thanks!

When I went to recruitment weekends, I found the fell into two camps.

In the first type, they are playing it cool. You already know they are interested, but they're pretending like they're maybe not THAT interested. They ask you a lot of questions, all leaning towards how impressive YOU are. People asked me about my other offers and they were quick to tell me why their program was better than X program. While that might be true, it kind of turned me off. On one of my visits, my POI trashed my current department, only to be really flustered when I reminded him they were identically ranked to the program he was in. In my opinion (not everyone will agree), if you're really a good fit with a program, they don't need to trash other programs you applied to. You'll figure it out by asking questions and seeing that it's the best place for you! Also at this type, the focus was more on fitting in with my own potential cohort instead of with the existing students. I had very minimal interaction with existing graduate students in that department and I wasn't entirely clear on if they were happy. This type of program tends to be top 10 (although not always) and very competitive. If you want an R1 job, don't let this steer you away from a progam. I have many friends I met on recruitment weekends at these type of programs who are very happy now. This brings me to the second type.

The department I chose had a weekend that fell into the latter camp. This type of university focuses only on themselves. They talk about their resources and how great THEY are. Unless you explictly say "oh I'm comparing y'all to StateXUniveristy" they probably won't make many direct comparisons. Even then, when we recruit, we are told NEVER to trash another place. The idea is that this place is so great that we only want you to come if you think you're going to be happy and be a good fit. The culture of these programs tends to be much less competitive. I only visited two weekends like this, but the university I finally chose was my safety school until the recruitment weekend. The caution I have about these programs is sometimes they are too positive. Don't let yourself get swept up in the positive emotions of recruitment weekend and end up committing to a type II program that's a pretty good fit over a type I program that's the BEST fit for you.

No program is 100% positive sunshine and roses. I don't care what they tell you on recruitment weekend, there are some skeletons in the closet and some unhappy people there. You will almost never see this side of any program on their recruitment weekend. Try to gather information and make the most informed decision possible. This is why I emphasize fit over all other criterea when advising recruits. I believe that if you're happy doing your work, other stuff falls away. Sure, I don't like the town my university is located in, but it's only for a small number of years. I picked a program with a great fit and a lot of resources and 90% of the time I'm a happy grad student.

A list of questions I think are important to ask:

• Are most people happy in the program? If not, why are they unhappy? (This part is super important. If a theory person came to a demography-focused program and complains that it's not a theory program, that doesn't mean it's a bad program. That means that person didn't pick a program with a good fit. If people with good fit are unhappy, then you have a problem!)
  
• What is it like to live in University City?
  
• How do comprehensive exams work? When do you take them?
  
• How are people chosen for additional years of funding? Does the funding clock stop if you apply for outside funding?
  
• How many people apply for outside funding? What are the success rates and what support does the program give?
  
• What is the culture like? (This question is HARD to get a real answer too. My best advice is to stand back and people watch for a bit at the party. Are people cliquish? Are they genial? Do students know all professor's names and are they comfortable at least introducing you to them?)
  
• What are summers like?
  
• Does your POI co-author with their students? (Ask their students. If they won't answer you, go look at their CV. Rule of thumb: if they don't have a list of people they've mentored and/or some way to acknowledge their grad student authors, they probably fall in the stingy authorship camp)
  
• Do students co-author papers with each other?
  
• If you're interested in non-academic jobs, how are those placements? Is that goal supported by the department?
  
• Do grad students teach their own classes? Are there resources for those who do?
  

To address your cocern about "holding your own". Don't worry about it. This isn't a competition. You've already been admitted. They've already picked you! Regardless of what school you pick, you will go on to be a successful person.

I enjoy having prospectives that ask thoughtful, intelligent questions. I've spent over 100 hours involved in recruitment weekends since I've been here. I am always willing to take time to talk to recruits. That said, I really don't like it when they trash my university. Recruitment weekends are expensive. We spend over $1500 on average per recruit at our weekend. This is on the high end, but most visit weekends require some type of investment by the program. Our graduate students spend countless hours emailing and calling prospectives, and preparing for the weekend to make it a success. When someone comes to our weekend and says nasty things about our program or talks incessantly about another program, I am incredibly turned off. Treat every school you visit with respect. People attend that program and have some pride in it, otherwise they wouldn't be helping out with recruitment weekend. If you do this, don't be surprised if older graduate students don't want to answer your questions. If you want to compare the program you're at to another one, ask a question like this, "How does this program compare to others with academic placements?" They should be able to provide you with concrete information that you can compare later.

Sorry I wrote a manifesto! Please feel free to press me on any of this or have me clarify something, either here or on PM. As you can probably tell, I love recruitment activities. I think of it as an investment in my program. If I can get the best students to come to my program and they can go on to be superstars, that reflects positively on my program and me. Hope that helps!

[socscholar]

what do you think is best to say when asked what other programs I am considering? I have a few options, all with very similar prestige/rankings. I don't want to sound like a d-bag by listing all 7 of them, but I also want to be honest/get info.

Should I just mention 1-2? Should I avoid mentioning them at all? If grad students ask, what is the best way to respond?

Thanks!! Your long post was very insightful.

[splitends]

Hey, socscholar. I would like to hear from the expert too, but I just wanted to share an experience I've had along these lines.

I've been talking to professors at prospective schools over the phone, which frankly I find pretty nerve wracking. During one of the earlier phone calls, a Prof at one of my top universities asked me a question about which other programs I'm considering. I just told her straightforwardly "I'm not really sure of the etiquette here-- I've never done this before. Do you actually want to know all of the programs I got into and so on?" At which point, she responded by also being very straightforward and explaining that part of why we have these conversations is so they can understand where else I'm considering and how likely I am to attend their program and etc. So I told her, these are the schools I got into, these are the ones I'm most strongly considering-- it's going to be a very difficult decision, but your school is definitely one of my top choices and I'm looking forward to learning more about it. It turned into one of the most relaxed and productive conversations I've had with profs during this process (outside my undergraduate institution, which I'm also considering).

But in general I find that most professors are more comfortable in teacher mode than they are in sales associate mode. Even when I've gone to speak to professors that I know are supposed to be convincing me to attend their program, they usually just end up wanting to give me lots of advice. I think that the vast majority of the time, if you just answer questions honestly and politely, you'll find yourself having a much more productive time than if you try to think of what the "right" answer to any given question is.

Also, I really want to believe that no one actually faults you for your success. If you aren't an arrogant person, and if you are sincerely grateful to have the options you have, then I think you should be able to talk about having options in a way that won't offend or turn off profs or grad students. I would think the hardest line to walk right now would be while talking to other prospectives, who may have fresh rejections and might be anxious about the decisions they have to make....

[lexicana]

Splitends, what if you have applied to various programs and was only accepted to 1 program. I am visiting the program I was accepted into soon and feel that they will think they made a mistake because they are the only ones that accepted me. How should I respond to the question where else have you been accepted?

[jenjenjen]

Splitends, what if you have applied to various programs and was only accepted to 1 program. I am visiting the program I was accepted into soon and feel that they will think they made a mistake because they are the only ones that accepted me. How should I respond to the question where else have you been accepted?

Smile mysteriously and say "don't fret, you are my first choice" ? That's probably how I'd handle it haha

[giacomo]

Smile mysteriously and say "don't fret, you are my first choice" ? That's probably how I'd handle it haha

seconded. it's not like they can un-accept you now. just play cool.

[splitends]

Again, just sharing my personal experience, no expertise here.

I totally agree that once you're in, you're in-- they didn't make a mistake! But if you're concerned about saving face or something (which you really shouldn't worry about-- I wrote in the feelings about rejection thread about a grad student I know who was rejected from everywhere except Harvard. People get rejected for all kinds of reasons, and it definitely doesn't mean you're less suited to your prospective school than the other admits) then I would just say "Honestly, this is the only program I'm seriously considering at this point." Still true, but maybe sounds better than "This is my only choice."

[FertMigMort]

what do you think is best to say when asked what other programs I am considering? I have a few options, all with very similar prestige/rankings. I don't want to sound like a d-bag by listing all 7 of them, but I also want to be honest/get info.

Should I just mention 1-2? Should I avoid mentioning them at all? If grad students ask, what is the best way to respond?

Thanks!! Your long post was very insightful.

Hey, socscholar. I would like to hear from the expert too, but I just wanted to share an experience I've had along these lines.

I've been talking to professors at prospective schools over the phone, which frankly I find pretty nerve wracking. During one of the earlier phone calls, a Prof at one of my top universities asked me a question about which other programs I'm considering. I just told her straightforwardly "I'm not really sure of the etiquette here-- I've never done this before. Do you actually want to know all of the programs I got into and so on?" At which point, she responded by also being very straightforward and explaining that part of why we have these conversations is so they can understand where else I'm considering and how likely I am to attend their program and etc. So I told her, these are the schools I got into, these are the ones I'm most strongly considering-- it's going to be a very difficult decision, but your school is definitely one of my top choices and I'm looking forward to learning more about it. It turned into one of the most relaxed and productive conversations I've had with profs during this process (outside my undergraduate institution, which I'm also considering).

This is a tougher question to answer. I would go by the feel of the person asking you. If they are just asking to get information and be nosy, you can reply with something like "I got into another program strong in X, X, X". If they are really trying to help you make a more informed decision, they should reply with the strengths of their program in X, X, X. If they are being nosy they might probe more.

I also think there can be pros and cons of telling people where else you were accepted. A pro is that if I know where else you're considering then I can give you better information about how our program compares. On the other hand, a con of that is that not everyone is well informed about other programs you are asking them to compare themselves to and sometimes in the heat of the competitive moment people can turn nasty (like the person on my visit). A pro is that you can use this as a negotiating tool to get yourself a better stipend at school A if you like it better than school B, but school B gave you more money.

In general, I would say don't broadcast where you're going, but if you really want to know how programs compare then go ahead and name another program. My caution about broadcasting comes from a student we had attend our recruitment weekend a few years ago. They were waitlisted at another school and could NOT SHUT UP about that other program. It turned a lot of us off, students and professors. Like I said before, we put a lot of work into these weekends and it's hurtful when someone comes and isn't interested and wastes our time talking excessively about another program. Incidentally, that student ended up not getting off the waitlist of their dream program and came here instead. I'm happy to tell your how my program stacks up to similar ones, but don't really want to discuss the inner workings of Department X when I'm in Department Z.

Hope that's helpful! Please keep asking questions! I am happy to answer questions on this board or by PM.

[sciencegirl]

I was also actually in that same situation this past weekend speaking over the phone to a professor from a prospective school (Why do they just call you out of the blue??!! I need more time to prepare for such calls! So nerve racking...). I had some advice though from other friends which was to not name other schools in these conversations if they happen - the reasoning is that you are more likely to say something/come off in a certain way that could potentially come off badly. I can be bad at such things too as I tend to ramble. So I made a rule that I would discuss other programs only with maybe current grad students that I trusted.. but no other school names would be mentioned when speaking to profs on the phone.

So of course in this phone call, the professor asks, "May I ask what other schools you are considering?" And as I rehearsed with my friends, I just said warmly, "I don't really want to name them, but your program is definitely one of the top ones I'm considering, and I really look forward to my visit and deciding more between programs after that." I think it came off well, and it refocused everything to their program and school, and did not become awkward.

I also heard though that if you are going to bargain funding, ONLY do it if you really want to go to that program and that getting the desired $ figure will actually make you change your mind and go there. Hence, I am not really thinking about funding types of questions at the moment. First priority is figuring out which program is best, then worrying about $ questions last after all my visits.

[maximus82]

I would add to questions that I think everyone should ask during their visit:

1. What's the average number of years it takes someone to complete their degree?

2. How often do people drop out and for what reasons?

Also, for whoever said that they are worried about visiting their only acceptance.. don't worry, even if you had a bunch of acceptances, you'll still feel like they made a mistake during (at least) you first year.

[dizzid]

This is one of my favorite threads right now.

Would those of you who have had your visits or as they occur post as well?

I'd love a play by play of what happened on your visit if you're willing to share.

[jenjenjen]

My first visiting 'weekend' is this Friday and Saturday! I really appreciate the advice that has been given thus far. And, unless i'm sworn into some super secret society upon entrance to the campus, I'll give a general rundown on how it was run and my general impressions. Maybe I'll even have some insight slash advice for future visits!

[FertMigMort]

I was also actually in that same situation this past weekend speaking over the phone to a professor from a prospective school (Why do they just call you out of the blue??!! I need more time to prepare for such calls! So nerve racking...). I had some advice though from other friends which was to not name other schools in these conversations if they happen - the reasoning is that you are more likely to say something/come off in a certain way that could potentially come off badly. I can be bad at such things too as I tend to ramble. So I made a rule that I would discuss other programs only with maybe current grad students that I trusted.. but no other school names would be mentioned when speaking to profs on the phone.

So of course in this phone call, the professor asks, "May I ask what other schools you are considering?" And as I rehearsed with my friends, I just said warmly, "I don't really want to name them, but your program is definitely one of the top ones I'm considering, and I really look forward to my visit and deciding more between programs after that." I think it came off well, and it refocused everything to their program and school, and did not become awkward.

I also heard though that if you are going to bargain funding, ONLY do it if you really want to go to that program and that getting the desired $ figure will actually make you change your mind and go there. Hence, I am not really thinking about funding types of questions at the moment. First priority is figuring out which program is best, then worrying about $ questions last after all my visits.

Perfect advice. I think this is a really smart way to handle things.

My first visiting 'weekend' is this Friday and Saturday! I really appreciate the advice that has been given thus far. And, unless i'm sworn into some super secret society upon entrance to the campus, I'll give a general rundown on how it was run and my general impressions. Maybe I'll even have some insight slash advice for future visits!

No super secret societies! When I went on my visits there was a lot of overlap, so it's unreasonable to expect y'all to never talk about how visits were at other schools. Good luck this weekend!