Advice--Take offer or reapply?

[abacab44]

Hi all,

I would really appreciate it if some of you could give me your thoughts on my current situation. So it seems that I'm going to come out of this cycle with one funded offer from Stony Brook (I'm still waiting to hear from Columbia and Rutgers, but it seems as though they're done with acceptances, and that a rejection is certain). I'm really happy that I received a funded offer, but I'm really uncertain about the job prospects coming out of a SUNY, and feel that I did not manage the application process as well as I could have this year. I should also point out that I only applied to four programs due to a family emergency causing me to miss several deadlines.

In terms of grades, i have a magna cum laude GPA from NYU, a perfect verbal GRE score, and a J.D. from NYU Law. I did not contact any of my POIs (I was unaware people did that), and now think that may have worked against me. Looking back, I also think that perhaps I could have put together a better SOP. My language skills arent that great, but arent non-existant either (and as an Early-Americanist, I don't think that was what hurt me).

Basically, I'm unsure if I should take the Stony Brook offer, or retry again next year with a more polished SOP, contacting POIs and applying to more programs. Any pearls of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[TMP]

From what I've heard about SUNY schools (okay, Albany to be specific as I have a friend who did her PhD there) is that they tend to place people in the region for jobs. So it depends what you really want. If you're okay with the idea of staying in New York or in the Northeast area in any kind of teaching job, even CC, then SUNY is fine. But if you want more options, then you may want to consider re-applying as long as you use your time off wisely.

[Simple Twist of Fate]

Hello,

I'm a fellow early Americanist, and I feel like we're basically in a similar position (except I don't have a funded offer yet). I've got similar numbers to yours, similar language skills, and though I did contact my POIs to see if they were accepting students, I didn't build a relationship with them. My SOP could have maybe been improved too. So, like you, I feel like I have a high ceiling and if I only get accepted to my last choice, I'll have to think about it a little bit.

Of course, the rule in applications is that you should only apply to places that you'd be willing to go to if you got rejected from everywhere else. But things do change - especially with the family emergency. I know I'm not in exactly the same place I was in Oct-Nov.

I would suggest you talk it over with your any professors/mentors you're still in touch with, and your family. It's hard to make a meaningful comment without knowing you and your situation. For instance, if you have a steady job now, that's different from if you would have no way of supporting yourself over the next year.

Turning down a funded offer is difficult, but if you think you can come back as a much stronger candidate a year from now, then it may be a good decision.

[abacab44]

I would suggest you talk it over with your any professors/mentors you're still in touch with, and your family. It's hard to make a meaningful comment without knowing you and your situation. For instance, if you have a steady job now, that's different from if you would have no way of supporting yourself over the next year.

Turning down a funded offer is difficult, but if you think you can come back as a much stronger candidate a year from now, then it may be a good decision.

I am planning on talking with a professor at my undergrad next week to see what she says. The only issue I see is that, besides writing a better SOP and trying to forge relationships with my POIs, I'm not sure what else I can do to improve my application. Credential-wise, it seems as though it would be hard for me to become more impressive when I am now out of a university/law school setting.

[Simple Twist of Fate]

I am planning on talking with a professor at my undergrad next week to see what she says. The only issue I see is that, besides writing a better SOP and trying to forge relationships with my POIs, I'm not sure what else I can do to improve my application. Credential-wise, it seems as though it would be hard for me to become more impressive when I am now out of a university/law school setting.

Yeah, but there's the problem. The impressiveness of your application doesn't always determine whether or where you'll be accepted. Honestly, getting accepted to 1/4 isn't a terrible track record, especially when you're applying to really competitive programs like Rutgers and Columbia. I definitely believe my application can be improved, as you do, (and I personally found this board very helpful over the summer for certain aspects of my app) but I know that if I enter myself into the applicant pool again, I'm also just hoping that the stars are aligned somewhere.

[Kelkel]

I know my undergrad just hired a political scientist out of Stony Brook. I know that the polisci dept. at Stony Brook is on the up and up, so I'm not sure how this would relate to the history dept. (At my UG, history and polisci are in one department, it makes no sense, but neither does my school as a whole). BUT, we are definitely outside of the Northeast and it was a tenure-track position at a SLAC, which is often desirable.

I would ask someone in the department for placement records. I'm sure they'll happily supply them to you.

[StrangeLight]

i know a prof that did his PhD at stony brook, worked at yale for a bit (i think as a postdoc?), and now teaches at an R1 school in vancouver (tenured, light teaching load, grad student advisees). so he managed to "get out" of the regional pull a few times. not that being stuck in the new york area forever is a bad thing.

i usually think it's a good idea to only apply to schools you'd be happy to attend. my sense is that rutgers is on par with stony brook, although there may be some particular subfield strengths that rutgers has over stony brook in your case. stony brook is the SUNY, at least for the fields of history i'm familiar with, so i don't think it's fair to compare it to all other SUNY campuses.

i'd strongly consider going. but if you're convinced that your next application would be that much better, then by all means try again. before you do so, see if stony brook will allow you to defer your admission for one year. consider being a bit mercenary about it and invoking some of those family emergencies you described to explain why you'd like a year off before enrolling. they may say no, but it's worth a shot.

Edited February 24, 2012 by StrangeLight

[goldielocks]

Just to chime in -- I agree with what's basically being said in this thread. If you are uncertain that you'd be happy with the sort of jobs this program will lead to, do not feel pressured to accept. You can always do this again next year. You can take a year to polish every single piece of your application, and spend some time living in the "real world" (a phrase that really bothers me but I'm at a loss here). Travel? Work? Save some $? Take a course or two? Read lots and lots and lots? I think the hardest thing for many applicants to remember is that taking a year away from school is not the end of the world. I know it can feel that way but it can also be incredibly beneficial. I had to take a year away once, because I fell ill and basically had no choice. And it seemed like the worst thing in the world at the time but so much good ended up coming out of it.

It's a very subjective thing and you'll receive a mix of feedback. But I can tell you, from my experience, that taking a year away to strengthen my materials/have some time to myself really helps.

[abacab44]

Thanks a lot for all of the replies! I'm still extremely undecided, but you guys really gave me a lot of great things to think about

With regards to taking a year off to do other things, thats sort of what I'm doing now. I graduated from law school last spring, and have been spending the year doing some lawyer stuff/tutoring--unfortunately I didn't make any long term job plans because I figured I'd be back at school by next fall, but now I'm not so sure.

[goldielocks]

Well, I'm sure you'll make the right decision for you. Best of luck!

[SapperDaddy]

I think your big question to answer for yourself is what are your larger goals and how does what you have with stony Brook help get you there? An Ivy League phd does not guarantee you a job, nor does a SUNY degree bar you from employment. The Ivy League will of course open more doors for you, but that only mean that you get maybe some consideration that others may not. That does not mean you are guaranteed anything, it's still up to you to secure the job.

The other question is, if you have a JD already, why are you even bothering with academia?

[crazedandinfused]

I think you should also keep in mind that unlike someone who'll come out of a PhD program with just a BA and a PhD, you'll also have a JD from a fantastic law school. I don't know what your interests are within early American history--are you interested in legal history?--but this is something to consider. Not that the legal academia market is awesome, but if you play your cards right in terms of dissertation topics you're going to have more options than the typical PhD recipient. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss this at all--I have a JD too and totally understand where you're coming from!

Yeah, I totally second this. I'm hoping that my non-History master's will improve my competitiveness on the job market. Especially as the field becomes more transnational in its approach. So, as Telemaque said, if you want to be a legal historian that JD is another arrow in your quiver.

[abacab44]

I think you should also keep in mind that unlike someone who'll come out of a PhD program with just a BA and a PhD, you'll also have a JD from a fantastic law school. I don't know what your interests are within early American history--are you interested in legal history?--but this is something to consider. Not that the legal academia market is awesome, but if you play your cards right in terms of dissertation topics you're going to have more options than the typical PhD recipient. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss this at all--I have a JD too and totally understand where you're coming from!

Yea, legal history is the route I'm considering--I'm hoping to look at how legal developments/philosophies affected how colonists/Americans in the early republic viewed their ties to Britain. As to whether I ultimately seek to work in the legal history dept of a law school, or in the history dept of a university, I always saw myself more in the latter. I really do hope that in the end it does translate into more options.

[oseirus]

well then general question to the room ... what if you don't get the funding you are looking for this year ... would you try to reapply again next year (maybe even to that same school) or suck it up and go?

[CageFree]

Depends. If the funding offer includes TAing but it's guaranteed, take it. If the funding is not guaranteed, I'd wait, because if the school really, truly wanted you, it would guarantee funding.

[oseirus]

Depends. If the funding offer includes TAing but it's guaranteed, take it. If the funding is not guaranteed, I'd wait, because if the school really, truly wanted you, it would guarantee funding.

thanks

[TMP]

oserius,

truly, I understand your anxiety. I know your position is quite unsettling. I've been there. It's not fair that you are where you are, right? Try to relax. You don't have to make any decisions right now, don't you? Put your energies towards something else (like keep up with your stand up comedy acts for us! ). Also, I know it's scary to think about not be able to go to school in the fall so you are willing to take whatever comes along. Again, I've been there. Except I didn't take the unfunded offer from a very low-ranked school (but great, great faculty) because I learned that there was literally zero chance of any additional funding support down the road, not even TAships. I listened to my colleagues and my poor bank account and, as much as I really wanted the opportunity to earn my PhD right away, I turned down the offer. People applauded me because they truly believed that I deserved way better than an unfunded acceptance, not simply because one shouldn't go into debt for a humanities PhD.

It can be worth waiting another year to apply, even if one of your programs end up offering you a year of TAship. That's just one year out of 6 years of funding that you have to find. Do you really want to keep looking for funding every semester? You also need to keep in mind the costs of going on research trips for your dissertation and you really need funding from the get go.

I would take the time and try to think through these scenarios and ask yourself, are you worth a fully-funded offer? Are you deserving enough? Or do you want to be a wash in the eyes of the department and end up teaching in some school where your main job is just to pass those students and your research won't matter to anyone?

It really is VERY hard to sit on the sidelines and I've been doing that for 2 cycles. It was really trying to deal with being on the waitlist at Indiana twice and not knowing whether or not I'd be able to get off. While all those rejections were very discouraging, those waitlists at Indiana (and one year NYU) comforted me, knowing that I was damn good enough to be in a PhD program but just wasn't worthy enough of the money. Take those waitlists of yours as a sign that you're damn good enough for a highly competitive PhD program but you just need push a little more with your writing aspects of the application and hope that the year is a good year for your subfield. Even though I did do things that I enjoyed in my time waiting such as traveling, volunteering, and caring for horses, I still felt that void. Obviously it won't go away until you've been accepted but it will be there constantly and you just have to learn to live with it and know that you will avenge.

I'm not sure if I'm helping here or not but I hope that sharing some of my thoughts for people like yourself and others trying to decide whether or not to turn down anything this year and try again next cycle for better offers.

[oseirus]

oserius,

truly, I understand your anxiety. I know your position is quite unsettling. I've been there. It's not fair that you are where you are, right? Try to relax. You don't have to make any decisions right now, don't you? Put your energies towards something else (like keep up with your stand up comedy acts for us! ). Also, I know it's scary to think about not be able to go to school in the fall so you are willing to take whatever comes along. Again, I've been there. Except I didn't take the unfunded offer from a very low-ranked school (but great, great faculty) because I learned that there was literally zero chance of any additional funding support down the road, not even TAships. I listened to my colleagues and my poor bank account and, as much as I really wanted the opportunity to earn my PhD right away, I turned down the offer. People applauded me because they truly believed that I deserved way better than an unfunded acceptance, not simply because one shouldn't go into debt for a humanities PhD.

It can be worth waiting another year to apply, even if one of your programs end up offering you a year of TAship. That's just one year out of 6 years of funding that you have to find. Do you really want to keep looking for funding every semester? You also need to keep in mind the costs of going on research trips for your dissertation and you really need funding from the get go.

I would take the time and try to think through these scenarios and ask yourself, are you worth a fully-funded offer? Are you deserving enough? Or do you want to be a wash in the eyes of the department and end up teaching in some school where your main job is just to pass those students and your research won't matter to anyone?

It really is VERY hard to sit on the sidelines and I've been doing that for 2 cycles. It was really trying to deal with being on the waitlist at Indiana twice and not knowing whether or not I'd be able to get off. While all those rejections were very discouraging, those waitlists at Indiana (and one year NYU) comforted me, knowing that I was damn good enough to be in a PhD program but just wasn't worthy enough of the money. Take those waitlists of yours as a sign that you're damn good enough for a highly competitive PhD program but you just need push a little more with your writing aspects of the application and hope that the year is a good year for your subfield. Even though I did do things that I enjoyed in my time waiting such as traveling, volunteering, and caring for horses, I still felt that void. Obviously it won't go away until you've been accepted but it will be there constantly and you just have to learn to live with it and know that you will avenge.

I'm not sure if I'm helping here or not but I hope that sharing some of my thoughts for people like yourself and others trying to decide whether or not to turn down anything this year and try again next cycle for better offers.

Oh you helped a lot! I will def add a kind mention of you in the memoirs, when I sell out in 2035 and write schlock novels that have been turned into blockbuster movies that contort history. As I come back to the post-grad cafe to see people slam me: "Man I can't believe Oseirus sold out so much! Did you see him on Google's Today show? Claiming that the History Channel's Aliens, Queen Victoria and Africa is a 100% factual. What happened to that guy? I thought he was a REAL historian!

But yes, you are correct, I would rather wait it out another and take my chances rather than hop into a bed where I am going with only the hopes of MAYBE getting money some day.

[Riotbeard]

OP: If you are doing legal history, I think you would probably be in a solid position on the job market if you got your PhD from any institution (this obviously assumes you do well in grad school), because your JD and technical expertise would be so strong. One of my undergrad professors got his PhD at ole miss, but has a divinity degree from an Ivy, and since he is a religious historian, he did really well on the market. Unless you could not see yourself happy at Stonybrook, I would probably take it. No matter your credentials, you never know if you will get a better offer next year.

[oseirus]

OP: If you are doing legal history, I think you would probably be in a solid position on the job market if you got your PhD from any institution (this obviously assumes you do well in grad school), because your JD and technical expertise would be so strong. One of my undergrad professors got his PhD at ole miss, but has a divinity degree from an Ivy, and since he is a religious historian, he did really well on the market. Unless you could not see yourself happy at Stonybrook, I would probably take it. No matter your credentials, you never know if you will get a better offer next year.

totally unrelated but is that Stephen Crane as your avatar?

[Riotbeard]

Yes it is. One of my favorite authors.

[abacab44]

OP: If you are doing legal history, I think you would probably be in a solid position on the job market if you got your PhD from any institution (this obviously assumes you do well in grad school), because your JD and technical expertise would be so strong. One of my undergrad professors got his PhD at ole miss, but has a divinity degree from an Ivy, and since he is a religious historian, he did really well on the market. Unless you could not see yourself happy at Stonybrook, I would probably take it. No matter your credentials, you never know if you will get a better offer next year.

A lot of people have said this to me, yet when I was applying told me that my JD wouldn't help me much for admissions into programs. It seems odd that it wouldnt help when trying to get admitted but would be beneficial when trying to get a job.

I'm definitely going to see what advice my undergrad prof has for me/actually go and visit Stony Brook before I make up my mind, but at this point I think I'm going to be a nervous wreck either way I go.

[oseirus]

Yes it is. One of my favorite authors.

What about Hart Crane?

[natsteel]

I'm an early Americanist as well. OP, yours is a borderline situation. Stony Brook has generally had decent faculty in early America, with Ned Landsman there now (who I think is criminally underrated as a historian) as well as Donna Rilling. And, as someone said, Stony Brook is THE SUNY school. Also, as someone said, there is so much that goes on behind the scenes that the quality of your application (in the latter stages of the admission process) becomes less than the most important factor. That is generally why many people apply to more schools.

I can sympathize with your predicament. If SUNY-SB had been my only admit, I would've been quite tempted to take it. The video about the program on Historians TV was well done and reflected well on the program (for whatever that's worth). However, if you are already working, taking another year to polish your SOP and writing sample and then giving it another shot at more than four schools might be worth it. I feel for you as this is a very tough situation.

As to your job concerns, Stony Brook is not a so-called "elite school," but people have made careers out of there in many fields including history. If you do decide to go there, your eventual success will depend far more on your scholarly production than the school's name; after all, even a top Ivy League PhD does not guarantee one a job.