Should I be Tempering my Expectations? (Biostatistics)

[APOCooter]

I hate to create another thread about Biostatistics, but I also didn't want to hijack someone else's thread. I've been doing some research, and I'm wondering what kind of program I can get into, or if I should temper my expectations.

I'm a student at a state school in New York pursuing a bachelors in applied mathematics with a minor in applied statistics. My GPA is currently above a 3.5, but some of my math grades have been shaky, in my opinion. I received a B+ in Calc I and a B in Calc III (for what it's worth, it was an online class and I know I would've done better in a traditional class), I also received a B+ in my first mathematical statistics class. I'm currently taking real analysis and numerical analysis; they're challenging, but I'm fairly confident I'll be getting at least a B+/A- in both. Additionally, when I started this degree (this will be my second bachelors degree), I had plans to pursue a post graduate degree in a biomath field, so I'm also taking bio and chem courses. This is my last semester of heavy math courses; next year I'll be taking genetics and organic chem, along with a couple of statistics courses.

So that's my background. Should I both attempting to apply to a program like the University of Washington or another top tier school? Or should I scale back and look at top 50 schools instead of top 10?

Also, since I wouldn't be starting grad school until the fall of 2013, in an effort to pad my resume, I was going to try and do research with professors at my school. The problem is, none of it is directly related to biostatistics. Is it worth doing, just to say that I have research experience? There's also a possibility that I could get an internship at a local hospital. Should I make a serious effort to pursue those, or would I be better off with a biostatistics related independent study?

I'm not sure if I'll be pursuing a PhD or if it will just be a master's degree. I'd like to get a PhD, but I'm not sure if it will be feasible. I won't be seriously hamstringing myself if I just get a master's degree, will I?

My apologies that this post is kind of all over the place. I'm on spring break, and grad school research is on my to-do list for the week, and I guess I started to freak out. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Also, any suggestions on schools to look into would be appreciated (I'm from the United States, but I'm not against becoming an international student).

[Biostat_Assistant_Prof]

Wow, we are in very similar situations. I am definitely not the best source, but I've spent many hours doing my research about this for myself. I know it takes a while to get responses on here, so I'll go ahead and share what I know... But it would be nice if someone who know a little better will respond.

I too will be applying next year for the Fall of 2013. A little about me: Biology major who found interest in Statistics. My GPA is around 3.4 right now, but should be 3.45-3.5 by end of next fall. A. My biggest issue is that I found my interest in Biostat a little late in undergrad, so I won't be taking Linear Algebra and Calc II until this Fall and Calc III and Probability until next spring. For that reason, my applications will already be sent in before I have grades for those courses. I still plan on sending transcripts after my fall semester ends to reflect my grades in Calc II and Linear... But nevertheless, I'm worried about my chances of being accepted because there is no way to have a Calc III (multivariable) grade before I apply..... I have however taken a biostat course which I earned an A.

So here is what I know (but anyone please correct me if I'm wrong

Your GPA is pretty good. Your Calc grades aren't perfect, but B's are still not going to kill you from being accepted. What is going to matter a lot is your GREq score, LOR's and SOP.... A GREq >160 will surely help your chances. Also, find the best references (professors) to write you strong LOR's.... And something that is completely under your control is your statement of purpose/personal statement. Make sure your SOP reflects your passion for the field and why you want to pursue it at "X" program.

As for the research experience, it certainly won't hurt you, but I don't think it's necessary. Having talked with my former biostat professor at my university, as well as various others online, it seems that experience in statistics (such as in research, internships,etc.) is very hard to come by as an undergraduate, so don't worry about it.... However, like I said, research experience to put on your resumet/CV would not hurt you at all.

Concerning PhD vs MS... PhD's are definitely better because your career will not be limited once you're out of school. Also, you will always have the choice of working in academia if you get tired of industry. Also, PhD typically offers better funding than MS programs.... I've looked at nearly every biostat program in the US and some of them allow you to apply straight to PhD and some require a Masters first (Columbia is one that requires a MS first). I personally will apply to PhD programs if at all possible, and the MS programs where required. I've seen that most programs will admit you to the MS program anyway if you're not yet qualified for the PhD program... Other schools (such as Washington) don't allow you apply to the PhD coming from undergrad, but in your MS app, you can mention your ultimate goal is a PhD and it becomes a possibility.

Being a domestic student also slightly helps your chances (it has something to do with funding availability), and it seems like Biostat is dominated by international students for some reason.

- Getting accepted to top programs like Hopkins, Harvard, Washington are going to be long shots, but still worth applying to for the 'off' chance you get an interview/accepted

- Good schools that are possibilities are Michigan, Minnesota and UNC, but your GRE scores, LORs and SOP will have a big effect on whether or not you get accepted to these 3 schools

- Lastly, schools like UCLA, Columbia, Yale, Brown, Pitt, Emory, Boston, UC Berkely are all pretty good possibilities.

- Also apply to some other schools not mentioned as 'safety' schools.

Personally, as expensive as it will be, I'll be applying to around 15/16 schools because I'm paranoid about not getting accepted and want to give myself the best chances. Here is the list of Schools I'll be applying to, just to give you an idea

The first 5 are my "long shots". 6-13 are more realistic and I expect to get into a few of them (any one of which I'll be happy at), and 14-16 are kinda like my 'safety schools'

1. Johns Hopkins
   
2. Washington
   
3. Michigan
   
4. UNC
   
5. Minnesota
   
6. Boston
   
7. Columbia
   
8. Brown
   
9. UCLA
   
10. Pittsburgh
    
11. Yale
    
12. UC Berkeley
    
13. Emory
    
14. Florida State
    
15. Arizona
    
16. Case Western
    

... This list will likely change a little bit before the fall, but not much

Anyways, I hope I was at least a little helpful.... Hopefully Cyberwulf shows up to answer your questions. I have got a lot of good info from him/her and he/she is of great help on these forums for anything concerning Biostats

Edited March 11, 2012 by Noco7

[cyberwulf]

Noco did a great job of summarizing what I would have probably written. A few additional thoughts:

- The impact of your grades depends a lot on the reputation of the school you are attending; a B+ in Calc III at Columbia (say) is a fairly positive result; a B+ at a mediocre institution could be viewed more negatively.

- Research experience is nice to have, but isn't essential. And it certainly isn't necessary to have experience in biostatistics before applying to grad school.

- If you think you might eventually want a PhD, you should apply to PhD programs. If things aren't working out after a couple of years, many places will let you call it a day and graduate with a Masters.

- As far as target institutions, I think Noco's list serves as a good guide. The most selective institutions (Harvard and Hopkins) are probably out of reach, but the remainder are at least in the realm of possibility. Washington is a great school; faculty quality compares favorably with H&H, but gaining admission is a bit easier because because of geography, (lack of) name recognition, and the size of the incoming class. You'd probably still face an uphill battle for admission there, but it's definitely worth a shot.

Hope this helps; feel free to PM me if you need more info.

[ANDS!]

The OP and the poster below are going to have a tough go at it I believe. Minimum requirements are Calc I-III and Linear Algebra (this is formal LA, not the lower division Euclidean based LA) for most spots; others will toss in Real Analysis which neither seem to have. Of course, one can always make up these deficiencies, but you're going to be competing against Math/Stat majors who already have exposure to these topics and more.

I would say, definitely temper your expectations - however, if you have the cash go for it (I would however be a bit more realistic about the choice of where to go. . .the long shots are more than just long shots).

[R Deckard]

The OP and the poster below are going to have a tough go at it I believe. Minimum requirements are Calc I-III and Linear Algebra (this is formal LA, not the lower division Euclidean based LA) for most spots; others will toss in Real Analysis which neither seem to have. Of course, one can always make up these deficiencies, but you're going to be competing against Math/Stat majors who already have exposure to these topics and more.

I would say, definitely temper your expectations - however, if you have the cash go for it (I would however be a bit more realistic about the choice of where to go. . .the long shots are more than just long shots).

The OP is taking RA.

[cyberwulf]

The OP and the poster below are going to have a tough go at it I believe. Minimum requirements are Calc I-III and Linear Algebra (this is formal LA, not the lower division Euclidean based LA) for most spots; others will toss in Real Analysis which neither seem to have. Of course, one can always make up these deficiencies, but you're going to be competing against Math/Stat majors who already have exposure to these topics and more.

You're quoting the pre-reqs for a typical stats program, not biostat. I don't know of any biostat programs that require analysis as a pre-requisite. Now, this isn't to say that programs don't prefer students with "math-ier" backgrounds, but the biostat applicant pool remains rather shallow, so that once you get past the top couple of schools, there just aren't a lot of good students with lots of math exposure to go around. This goes double for domestic students.

I don't want to raise the OP's hopes too much, but I think a common (mis)perception is that the only people admitted to top 10 biostat departments are math/stat majors from big-name universities with 3.7+ GPAs. That simply is not the case.

[ANDS!]

No, I was quoting the minimum which is Calc, and LA (which the second poster will just barely have). I have seen a few that mentioned a preference for exposure to analysis; and why shouldn't they - you'll still have to go through a Prob/Math-Stats sequence, which given the second posters background, he/she simply is not ready for.

Of course its possible for them to still be admitted to some good schools, but you gotta be realistic here; Emory had 300 or so applicants last year (who knows how many this year) - I'm sure that's a lot less than an English program, but that's still a pretty good pool for only a few slots.

And no one said anything about Big Name UNI's with Big Time GPA's - I'm from a state school and have had quite a bit of success.

[Biostat_Assistant_Prof]

ANDS!,

I have seen a few programs mention something about exposure to Real Analysis being beneficial, but none that actually require it... I'm not doubting you on it being helpful, but I've looked at the Biostatistics web pages of every US university with a Biostat program, and the requirements for nearly all of them are first semester Linear Algebra and 3 semesters of Calc (through multivariable). Some suggest a previous course in Probability (which I'll take) and a course in Statistics (which I have taken).... For many programs, I've seen it where schools encourage undergraduate Biology majors to apply, so long as they meet the math requirements (which I will prior to the start of the program).... Quite a few even say that if a student is short a course or two, the deficiency can be made up in the first year...

Having spoken with a few Biostat professors, I've been told that, assuming I meet the pre-reqs, coming from a Biology background may help distinguish me from many other applicants coming from strictly math backgrounds.

It's unfortunate I discovered the field of Biostats a little late in my undergraduate studies, but I have really developed a passion for statistics (I actually bought and read a textbook on Probability Theory because it fascinates me).... In order for me to apply for Fall of 2013, I'm doing everything I can in order to get in my pre-reqs taken care of, while still taking the necessary Biology courses so I can earn my BS on time... Luckily, I'm able to, but just barely. To do this, I'm taking a summer class this year, 18 semester hours next fall (which includes Linear and Calc II), and 18 semester hours next spring (which Includes Probability and Calc III)... As much as I'd like, I simply cannot fit R.A into my schedule for next year... and I really don't want to take an entire year extra of undergrad to make up only one class. Therefore, on my applications, I'll offer to take Real Analysis (if the school insists) during the summer prior to the Fall semester...... (On a side note, If I don't get accepted anywhere next year, I'll be able to complete a BS in math given an extra year, so I would likely do that and re-apply).

Also, I'm curious where you found the admission statistics for Emory. I've looked all over the website and can't find them specifically for the Biostat program... On a side note, I have seen admission stats for many other schools regarding the Biostat programs, so I'm well aware of the number of applicants vs. acceptances.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Noco7

[ANDS!]

I got the Emory stats from them at a recruitment event (which included more than a couple non-math majors - so there is that).

I'm not trying to rain on parades, just trying to help people perhaps be a bit more realistic about expectations.

As for RA, I agree that the great majority don't have it as a minimum requirement; however the subject matter will make a lot more sense (and thus make for a more informed student). Same goes with taking an upper division LA course.

I would email the programs specifically (after they get out of grad application mode) and see what their view is on RA and upper-div LA - they may say it wont hurt you one way or another, or they may say "Take it when you get here (unlikely it'd be offered in the summer)".

[Biostat_Assistant_Prof]

Thanks for the information. I really do appreciate it and understand you're simply trying to give the best advice possible.

Honestly, I know I'm not the best source, but because so few Biostatistics programs even mention Real Analysis, let alone require it, I just don't see how it can be so very important. I feel like the programs would at least mention it being recommended if it was actually that big of deal and necessary for success in Graduate School.... Then again, maybe I just rationalize it that way to make myself feel better about my situation.... Regardless, it is what it is, and I'm applying anyway.... I'll guess I'll just have to wait and see.

But, I was (and still am) actually already planning on emailing each individual program I intend on applying to... Also, my university does offer an 8 week Real Analysis course during the summer semester, so that is an option for me.

... Speaking of Emory, ironically, it's one of my last choices and I may not even apply. I'm well aware that it's a fantastic school, but I have lived in the Atlanta area my entire life and I'm looking to get out, at least for graduate school. So if I do apply and don't get into Emory, I wouldn't be too upset anyway, lol.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Noco7

[ANDS!]

Holy god. Well, if you can do first semester analysis in 2 months, my hats off to ya. Personally, I'd just wait to take it at whatever campus you end up at. I would also check that your Analysis course doesn't have a "Formal Math" course requirement (essentially a class where you learn how to write proofs).

[cyberwulf]

Here's the deal with Real Analysis:

Most good programs require you to take at least one semester of real analysis at the advanced undergraduate/lower graduate level. So, programs would like to know that you will not fall on your face in this class. The best way to show this is to have succeeded in a course covering at least some of the material (eg. a typical undergraduate real analysis/advanced calculus class). Not having such a class before applying isn't fatal to your chances, but you will have to demonstrate this capability in other ways (stellar grades in other math classes, good overall GPA, high GRE Q score, strong letters saying that you're a smart person, etc.)

[Hanyuye]

This is a very informative thread! I had to temper down my expectations with the full rejection I received for the recent few months.

What Applied Math/Biostat programs would you consider second tier or even third tier? Perhaps, programs worth mentioning so that if applying for a PHD, first tier PHD programs will not shun you away?! Hope I'm clear enough....

[APOCooter]

I didn't want to make another thread for such a simple question, so I'm hoping this will still be seen and answered.

Last summer I took Multivariable Calculus as a summer course. It was an online course (and I was also taking a partial differential equations course) and I didn't do as well as I was hoping; I got a B-.

My plan was to retake it at the 4 year school that I transferred to. Some difficulties have come up; the credit hours of the course won't count towards my total and I won't be considered a full time student unless I add another course. If I do this, I'll have an essentially 18 credit hour semester, which I would much rather not do.

So, my question is this: would I be better off taking the 18 credit hour semester and getting a better grade in multivariable calc, or taking a statistics class called Environmental Statistics with the following description: "Statistical techniques are applied to the analysis and solution of environmental problems, with appropriate technology. The course deals with the bio-assay designs, toxicology, wildlife movement, and sampling in the context of environmental studies."

[ANDS!]

I would try to take calculus based Statistics. If that is not available, then a statistics based in a biological application is great so long as at some point you take an upper division statistics class.

[cyberwulf]

So, my question is this: would I be better off taking the 18 credit hour semester and getting a better grade in multivariable calc, or taking a statistics class called Environmental Statistics with the following description: "Statistical techniques are applied to the analysis and solution of environmental problems, with appropriate technology. The course deals with the bio-assay designs, toxicology, wildlife movement, and sampling in the context of environmental studies."

No question, retake Multivariable Calc. A B- in a core math course could sink your application, but having (or not) Environmental Statistics will make virtually no difference.

[APOCooter]

Well, I guess that settles it, then. Thanks again for the help.

[Hanyuye]

A B- isn't that bad, but does make a mark. If you take Advanced Calculus I and get a B or better, I'm pretty sure it can even it out to say the least.

[cyberwulf]

I guess it depends on the level of place you're aiming for. The problem is, there are so few pre-requisite math classes (Calc I-III, Linear Algebra) that admissions committees don't have a lot of grades to look at and so the influence of each one can be sizable.

[APOCooter]

Well, I'm confident that I'll get a better grade taking it again (and in an actual class instead of online). What I'm really worried about are my grades in Real and Numerical Analysis. I have no interest (or ability) to retake those.

[Hanyuye]

I guess I'm in a similar situation. I completed Cal 1 in HS via AP Cal. Cal 2 in college was horrible, I got a D and then a C+ in Cal 3. I'm confident about my abilities now because in Cal 2, I had no resources to complete the course; calculator, textbook, tutoring schedule. Should I take Advanced Calculus 1 and hope to get a B+ to override the previous grades?