Spinoff: Rejected from PhD, accepted to MA - thoughts/experiences?

[jilly11]

Hi all,

I posted in another thread that I got rejected from a PhD program but accepted to the MA. I want to know more/hear opinions about the "MA students fund PhD" students line of thought.

I feel confused because many PhD programs won't accept you straight from undergrad (like me) you need to have a Masters...BUT people are saying don't accept MA offers without funding/don't be a cash cow.So what are you supposed to do - don't people generally pay for the MA degree?

I thought an MA was a stepping stone/prep for a PhD? Is that wrong?

Right now I just feel majorly discouraged and that getting accepted to an MA is not a big deal at all.

Thoughts?

Thanks all.

[JosephineB]

(LONG time lurker but I wanted to answer your question...)

The problem with an unfunded MA is that you are paying a LOT of money for a degree that other people are getting for free and does not necessarily get you any closer to a PhD. In the case of IFA you will be paying just under $70,000 for a masters. That is over twice the price of what you would pay for an MA at a top state school even if you are paying out of state tuition. An MA is a stepping stone to a PhD, but you have to seriously consider whether or not you want to be $70k out before you even start your doctorate.

Fully funded MAs do exist but they are rare. I was just accepted to a fully funded MA with stipend at a top 20-30 school. I could go to a more elite program, but for me a free degree at a decent school is more important than having a big name on my CV. It's hard to get a funded MA anywhere, but I am guessing it is nearly impossible at schools like IFA or Columbia.

In terms of the "cash cow" issue, I have heard from many professors and friends that if you are paying full price at a school where others are paying nothing, your tuition dollars are funding your classmates. It also means that you were not one of the department's top choices.

Do you have a UG advisor or mentor you can talk to about this?

[complexprocedure]

Disclaimer: As this is my first application season, I'm less experienced in this regard, so please take my thoughts with the generalized requisite grain of salt.

Paying for an MA en route to a PhD is not *necessarily* a bad thing. But from what I've gathered, taking the PhD when offered is the better option - IF YOU ARE PLANNING ON EVENTUALLY GETTING THE PHD ANYWAY. I allcaps this because for many people working in non-academic positions (I am thinking here of modern/contemporary curators I know, for instance, who are currently working at mid-tier museums and arts institutions after acquiring only an MA), the PhD may not be necessary to fulfill one's ultimate career objectives. The opportunity cost of not working in the field while earning a PhD is substantial. One reason why I personally am leaning towards PhD programs over MAs is because going straight to PhD could potentially save me a year or more of my time spent in school (YMMV depending on how many credits your future PhD-granting institution is willing to accept from your MA-granting institution). For myself, I'm looking at opportunity costs, but I am an older student and really don't want to waste any more time en route to my ultimate career. You may have a larger temporal cushion, so to speak.

There are other great reasons for paying for your MA. It could be that you've been admitted to an MA program that affords you the opportunity for deep intellectual engagement with a particular program/POI that you would not have access to otherwise, and in this way you may be able to uniquely shape your future scholarship by taking advantage of a particular program. You may have contact with professors who, by virtue of your proximity, will give your work more careful consideration than if you'd not been in the program in the first place. You may be in a geographically challenging situation that dictates your program's place. You may have personal commitments that leave you limited to what choices you have for further education, and if the MA is what's available, that's what you'll need to take for now. You may feel a particular locale will be especially beneficial to your scholarship, but the only program that's admitting you there is an MA. There are also numerous programs which will only admit otherwise-qualified students to their MA program as a matter of course if they have not done any graduate work.

It's worth asking yourself whether a particular program that you're considering will help you to achieve your ultimate career goals. While many in their field choose to earn an MA en route to a PhD program, I suspect there are plenty of folks out there who paid for their MA who later went on to receive full funding for their PhD. Again, consider what it is that you are trying to accomplish.

Sometimes the dollars that MA students pour into their programs are sucked right back up into the system by the PhD students in the same department. Most accounting processes, however, are a bit more nuanced than that. Yes, PhD students *do* receive funding from the institution, and it *may be* the case that some of the MA tuition goes to help the PhD students get by. The question you need to ask yourself, however, is whether you feel like you, as a potential MA student, are getting value for the money you spend at your institution. Value for money can be defined in any number of ways, so that is a question that only you are capable of answering.

DO NOT be discouraged because you've "only" been admitted to MA programs. I guarantee you that for every program to which you've been admitted, there are many more applicants who did not get in. You applied to the programs you did for a reason. Now you must decide if that squares with your career goals and if those same reasons make sense in light of the potential dollars that will go to the MA program of your choice.

I hope that helps, and - TRULY - congratulations are due to you for your admit!

[complexprocedure]

(LONG time lurker but I wanted to answer your question...)

The problem with an unfunded MA is that you are paying a LOT of money for a degree that other people are getting for free and does not necessarily get you any closer to a PhD. In the case of IFA you will be paying just under $70,000 for a masters. That is over twice the price of what you would pay for an MA at a top state school even if you are paying out of state tuition. An MA is a stepping stone to a PhD, but you have to seriously consider whether or not you want to be $70k out before you even start your doctorate.

THIS. It must be acknowledged that having an MA is no guarantee that you'll get into a PhD program. In fact, I've known plenty of folks who didn't get in to PhD programs that had earned their MA... and also know folks who deferred their PhD enrollment one year only to be admitted into ZERO programs the following years.

You never can tell. In some ways, I feel like there should be a Grad School Roulette-themed casino in Vegas. Any investors?

[once]

I'm not an expert on this topic by any means, but the reason why I would not accept an unfunded MA is twofold:

1. Debt

2. Risk

The amount of debt you're looking at is huge, as Josephine pointed out. The odds that you will land a job that will help you pay off that debt while still having a high quality of life are small. I think I read somewhere that you shouldn't take out more than half of your future yearly salary in loans (say, if you think you'll make $50k/year, no more than $25k total debt).

I feel so rational right now and I don't want to say you shouldn't pursue your dream, but the potential cost is so huge. I know that when I signed for my undergrad loans I thought I knew what I was getting into, but it didn't really hit me until I started paying them back.

[arthistoryvoe2]

What are the PhD programs that won't accept people who don't have MAs? I haven't heard of that -- it does often help to have the experience that comes with an MA, but having the credential as a flat-out prerequisite? Really?

[oh_la_la]

I am a long-time lurker: I am on the academic job market in Art History, having gotten my PhD at a top-ranked pubic R1 (research university). Let me say in no uncertain terms that it would be pure folly for you to pursue an unfunded MA. The most compelling reason for turning down the IFA would be a financial one. It makes no sense for your financial health to go over $70,000 in debt for an MA in art history...at all. Even if you do eventually want to go get a PhD. I know that everybody wants to think that they will have a great job after they complete their studies, but this is just not the case, even for people who wrote great dissertations, won a ton of prestigious fellowships and who have published in peer-reviewed journals. I know that you all probably do not want to hear any of this, but it's worth knowing what awaits you on the other side. I would advise each and every one of you to turn down any offer, whether PhD or MA, that requires you to fund yourself. The ONLY way to do graduate work in the humanities is through fully-funded programs. Hold out until you get the offer you deserve, or re-think your career options if you are unwilling to wait. Good luck.

[jilly11]

I am a long-time lurker: I am on the academic job market in Art History, having gotten my PhD at a top-ranked pubic R1 (research university). Let me say in no uncertain terms that it would be pure folly for you to pursue an unfunded MA. The most compelling reason for turning down the IFA would be a financial one. It makes no sense for your financial health to go over $70,000 in debt for an MA in art history...at all. Even if you do eventually want to go get a PhD. I know that everybody wants to think that they will have a great job after they complete their studies, but this is just not the case, even for people who wrote great dissertations, won a ton of prestigious fellowships and who have published in peer-reviewed journals. I know that you all probably do not want to hear any of this, but it's worth knowing what awaits you on the other side. I would advise each and every one of you to turn down any offer, whether PhD or MA, that requires you to fund yourself. The ONLY way to do graduate work in the humanities is through fully-funded programs. Hold out until you get the offer you deserve, or re-think your career options if you are unwilling to wait. Good luck.

So...I have tried to get into a PhD straight from BA but if that doesn't work what should I do? I am finding it impossible to get a job in Art History with only a BA so how do I make myself more attractive next year to go straight to PhD ?

I feel so confused!

[oh_la_la]

Depending on what your interests are, think about moving abroad and working on a language and/or getting an internship, while working on the side. It's a very good idea to take some time between your BA and your PhD, just to get some perspective on your life a bit and define your goals more precisely. Work on your writing sample by going to experience objects up close and personal; demonstrate to the admissions committees next year that you have experience undertaking original research in libraries and/or museums.

[jilly11]

oh la la - I have done everything you have just mentioned (including writing my undergrad thesis which involved independent research) including taking a year off. Also, I'm Australian but went to the USA for my undergrad etc so I have travelled and I would say I definitely have "perspective" on my life.

What I'm confused about is why people seem to be rejecting the idea of doing an MA at all (especially if not funded) - some people apply for MA specifically.

Edited March 13, 2012 by jilly11

[oh_la_la]

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you do not have perspective on your life. What I intended to convey that it might be beneficial for you to take some time off between undergrad and grad school. Since you have already taken time and feel ready, if I were you I would ask your undergrad mentors to review your materials and see what could be improved. Perhaps cast a wider net next year in terms of programs. I would say that an MA is a useful degree to have, just don't go into a ton of debt to get it.

[jilly11]

Depending on what happens (financially - I may not have to take out loans) I might take another year off - and I could definitely perfect my Italian and work on my German. I guess I am just anxious to take the next step in life, you know.

Thanks to everyone for their responses!

[fullofpink]

Paying for an MA en route to a PhD is not *necessarily* a bad thing. But from what I've gathered, taking the PhD when offered is the better option - IF YOU ARE PLANNING ON EVENTUALLY GETTING THE PHD ANYWAY.

Not if the PhD is heavily underfunded, or if you realize that the institution can't guarantee you financial aid throughout your entire tenure due to whatever reason. However, most PhD programs are rewriting their thinking - many are putting a cap on how many students they'll take a year (despite how many super talented ones apply) and many simply won't accept more than they can fund. As my favorite POI said, "Honestly, the job market sucks for academics and we want to be responsible with acceptances. We aren't going to accept as many candidates as a we can and push them off into the open water with a large debt and pray they make it."

I allcaps this because for many people working in non-academic positions (I am thinking here of modern/contemporary curators I know, for instance, who are currently working at mid-tier museums and arts institutions after acquiring only an MA), the PhD may not be necessary to fulfill one's ultimate career objectives. The opportunity cost of not working in the field while earning a PhD is substantial.

Just letting you know, that ten - maybe even five years ago - having a MA was perfectly fine for mod/con curators, but that is not the case anymore. Increasingly it is being expected that all curators come loaded with a PhD.

There are other great reasons for paying for your MA. It could be that you've been admitted to an MA program that affords you the opportunity for deep intellectual engagement with a particular program/POI that you would not have access to otherwise, and in this way you may be able to uniquely shape your future scholarship by taking advantage of a particular program. You may have contact with professors who, by virtue of your proximity, will give your work more careful consideration than if you'd not been in the program in the first place. You may be in a geographically challenging situation that dictates your program's place. You may have personal commitments that leave you limited to what choices you have for further education, and if the MA is what's available, that's what you'll need to take for now. You may feel a particular locale will be especially beneficial to your scholarship, but the only program that's admitting you there is an MA. There are also numerous programs which will only admit otherwise-qualified students to their MA program as a matter of course if they have not done any graduate work.

Since MAs are seen as a professional degree and are usually catered to your particular interest (education, museum studies, arts administration, your field in art history) - it would be easy to think that a burgeoning academic could easily use this opportunity to get close to a POI during a MA program. Unfortunately, MA students may be put on the back burner to PhD students, they may be encouraged to have a more "general" background in art history over a specific one - so you may not be working with your adviser of choice -, and there could be other programs in the vicinity that are cheaper and still unite you with the adviser you want. For instance, MIT's art history MA has a collaborative relationship with Harvard so you can take classes there and access all their resources...and professors. Yeah, it's a great stepping stone, and yes, MIT MA students have gotten into Harvard - but this isn't standard practice at all.

It's worth asking yourself whether a particular program that you're considering will help you to achieve your ultimate career goals. While many in their field choose to earn an MA en route to a PhD program, I suspect there are plenty of folks out there who paid for their MA who later went on to receive full funding for their PhD. Again, consider what it is that you are trying to accomplish.

Remember, you are now getting a Masters in Art History. What if you never get into a PhD program? Many don't. Is this MA in Art History enough to sustain you? Will you be willing to work in the positions that a MA in Art History can give you? Is the debt worth it? I can say, that museum jobs pay well under equivalent jobs in another field. Actually, middle school teachers make more than adjunct professors AND senior education staff at most mid-high level museums.

You may regret wasting your time on an art history MA and wished you went for arts administration, or museum education, etc. Taking the time to really sit and think about how these options will suit you best will be THE most beneficial thing you can do.

Sometimes the dollars that MA students pour into their programs are sucked right back up into the system by the PhD students in the same department. Most accounting processes, however, are a bit more nuanced than that. Yes, PhD students *do* receive funding from the institution, and it *may be* the case that some of the MA tuition goes to help the PhD students get by.

This isn't a comment about your comment complexprocedure, just for everyone - Sometimes I really wish this story will stop floating around - it most likely doesn't go straight back into a department, it goes to the School and the School can allocate this to any department they wish. If your department is accepting the highest caliber of students; if the department's professors are publishing and producing symposia; if the students are winning Fulbrights and nationally-recognized funding; if the students are getting good fellowships at prominent institutions; et cetera. The better your department is as a whole, the MUCH more funding you get.

So, your money may potentially go back to your department, but it usually gets filtered into administrative costs, scholarships School-wide, and the individual grants offered to students. Don't be discouraged thinking that your money is going directly to "fund a better candidate."

The question you need to ask yourself, however, is whether you feel like you, as a potential MA student, are getting value for the money you spend at your institution. Value for money can be defined in any number of ways, so that is a question that only you are capable of answering.

I humbly disagree. You should ask yourself, "if I get this MA, what can I do with it and is that what I really want to do?"

[contiguous]

There are MA programs with some funding - Williams funds some of their students. UT Austin offers a package that knocks the price in half. I applied to a mixture of MA-only programs and MA-PHd combined. The main problems with IFA for me are - cost of program, cost of living in New York, and also the large size of the program - they admit a LOT of MA students, which often leads to competition and cattiness between students who are struggling to get their professors attention. I feel like IFA MAs are a dime a dozen at NYC institutions, which is why I'm actually more drawn to my other options.

[losemygrip]

Consider the terminal M.A.

Some schools offer only the M.A. and not the Ph.D. (e.g., Williams, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Florida, etc.). There you will find funding at the M.A. level. I did one of these for that very reason--I got the best deal right out of college there. Full funding plus T.A. My school even had extensive travel funds for M.A. students.

Extra bonus--you can try out grad school for a couple of years and make sure it's really something you want to do.

The M.A. at the Institute of Fine Arts was at one time considered to be a superb credential. It had the reputation of being as rigorous as a Ph.D. at other schools. Unfortunately, since they have gone to this model of using it as a cash cow to try to fund their program, its reputation has declined.

[anonymousbequest]

First, jilly11, congratulations on being accepted to an MA program. You should feel good about that and hopefully not take these comments as people trying to rain on your parade. But, as someone who is on the other side of things, I have to agree with oh_la_la and fullofpink here. I would look long and hard at the numbers of people from the Institute who graduate with an MA who actually do make it from there into a PhD program (same with Columbia or Chicago's MAPH), adding that to the amount of debt you will accrue while in the program before making any decisions. Also, the size of both the MA program and PhD would make it nigh impossible for you to forge the deep mentoring relationship with your POI that will help launch you into the PhD program there or anywhere else. Then there is the matter of the degree's reputation, I don't think highly of the Institute's terminal MA, seeing it as kind of a bought degree and not associating it with the reputation of the PhD program. I think it can add some cachet to folks working in galleries, auction houses, or non-curatorial departments of museums, but that's about it.

Plenty of people on this forum have been through the soul-sucking process of gradschool applications over multiple seasons, it's just the nature of things now with so many people applying and schools cutting back on admits. If I were you, with only the MA option at the IFA, I would perhaps take a year off, intern if you can as fullofpink suggests, or take some language classes to better prepare you for next season. There are great funded or partially funded terminal MAs out there with track records of sending students to good PhD programs. Three that come to mind are Williams, UMass Amherst, and UC Riverside. I think Notre Dame offers some kind of merit-based funding as well. I would look at schools that do not have PhD programs though, because there again you would be fighting for attention against very needy PhD students and ABDs.

It is a myth that schools "won't" accept people to their PhD programs without an MA (unless the MA is built into the architecture of that school's program). There are just so many more students with them now that it can seem that way. Some people here hedge their bets, applying to funded, terminal MAs as well as PhDs, which may be the smartest option.

As for job prospects with just the MA, they are perhaps not as dismal as fullofpink describes, but they are certainly not in curatorial departments of museums or anywhere in academia. You can work in other departments of museums, in collections management, education, development, or admin. For many people this is rewarding and completely fulfilling, a very good choice. If you really want to get scared for your future--know where oh_la_la is right now--go over to the Art History Academic Jobs Wiki 2011-2012. It may make you rethink graduate school altogether.

[tendaysleft]

F I would look long and hard at the numbers of people from the Institute who graduate with an MA who actually do make it from there into a PhD program (same with Columbia or Chicago's MAPH), adding that to the amount of debt you will accrue while in the program before making any decisions. Also, the size of both the MA program and PhD would make it nigh impossible for you to forge the deep mentoring relationship with your POI that will help launch you into the PhD program there or anywhere else. Then there is the matter of the degree's reputation, I don't think highly of the Institute's terminal MA, seeing it as kind of a bought degree and not associating it with the reputation of the PhD program. I think it can add some cachet to folks working in galleries, auction houses, or non-curatorial departments of museums, but that's about it.

This has been a very interesting discussion for me to read! I only applied to (and now need to choose between) MA programs, and my main struggle is between Williams and NYU. I'm so attracted to the all-star faculty at NYU (especially since I'm a mod/contemporary person) and the prestige of the department, but if I might get very little time with these all-star faculty and the department's prestige doesn't drip down into the MA degree--well, that gives me a lot to think about.

I'm pursuing my MA with the hopes of leaving open the doors to a PhD. Would I be right in saying that a MA from Williams would be better in this respect than an MA from the IFA? (Williams' program director said their PhD rate was around 50%, which is significant.)

[jilly11]

This has been a very interesting discussion for me to read! I only applied to (and now need to choose between) MA programs, and my main struggle is between Williams and NYU. I'm so attracted to the all-star faculty at NYU (especially since I'm a mod/contemporary person) and the prestige of the department, but if I might get very little time with these all-star faculty and the department's prestige doesn't drip down into the MA degree--well, that gives me a lot to think about.

I'm pursuing my MA with the hopes of leaving open the doors to a PhD. Would I be right in saying that a MA from Williams would be better in this respect than an MA from the IFA? (Williams' program director said their PhD rate was around 50%, which is significant.)

First, congratulations! One of my profs told me that the Williams MA is the most prestigious MA program. I would say if Williams gives you funding (or even if not) go for them!!

I only have the IFA to choose from right now which is why I'm leaning towards it Plus, here in Australia no one will give you any kind of art job without an MA which is why I'm anxious to move forward.

[arthistoryvoe2]

So...I have tried to get into a PhD straight from BA but if that doesn't work what should I do? I am finding it impossible to get a job in Art History with only a BA so how do I make myself more attractive next year to go straight to PhD ?

I feel so confused!

Unfortunately, you have to face the fact of the current economy: only the very very lucky or the very well-connected will "get a job in art history" with a BA. Find a day job, volunteer in an arts field...and Occupy Wall Street.

[jilly11]

arthistoryvoe2 - Right, I need a higher degree to get a job no questions there.

[fullofpink]

As for job prospects with just the MA, they are perhaps not as dismal as fullofpink describes, but they are certainly not in curatorial departments of museums or anywhere in academia.

Just as a note, I definitely think your job prospects rise if you have a MA (especially over something so specific as a doctorate). I was trying to stress that if you go into a MA program, then you are going to get a Ma - don't jump the gun and think this is an easy route for a PhD. However, if you do decide to get a MA, do your research and figure out what it can be used for if - for some reason - you never get that PhD. You don't want to regret that decision.

[anonymousbequest]

Omnibuster, here are my thoughts on Williams vs. the Institute for the MA:

Williams is funded (at least partially for everyone, unless I'm mistaken, even if you are not fully funded living in western Massachusetts is going to be far cheaper than New York).

Williams takes you to Italy.

Williams has a great alumni network.

Williams can provide hands-on experience working with and from objects.

Williams admits a small cohort, meaning lots of attention from faculty, leading to more meaningful letters of recommendation.

I'm guessing that it's true that they have about a 50% placement in PhD programs.

NYU, well, it's in New York which is far preferable than Williamstown (4 hours from anywhere you want to be). Their faculty may be better on paper but again, competing for their attention will be difficult, especially when they have already relegated you to second tier status.

Hope this helps.

[Hegel's Bagels]

Depending on what happens (financially - I may not have to take out loans) I might take another year off - and I could definitely perfect my Italian and work on my German. I guess I am just anxious to take the next step in life, you know.

Thanks to everyone for their responses!

I went through a similar experience that you're going through now. A few years ago, I was rejected from all the PhD programs I applied to and only received an unfunded offer for the MA at the IFA. At the advice of those wiser than me, I decided to take the year off. I spent a few months working in a coffee shop and then about seven months in a language program abroad. The first few months before I left the country, it was miserable. There was no work I could find with just a BA and I was really dismayed with my prospects. However, I applied again, mostly to MA programs (not the IFA) and got some great partially-funded offers. I went to a really strong MA program that paid for most of my tuition and I'll be finishing up this spring with only 21k in debt. Since I don't have any undergrad loans, this is a manageable amount for me. Going to this MA program was the best decision I ever made. I told my adviser right away that I was using this program as a stepping stone to a PhD program and the whole department was absolutely fabulous in helping me become an attractive candidate. I applied again this year and I have three wonderfully funded offers from three top 20 programs. I strongly recommend that you reconsider the IFA MA unfunded. 70k is a lot of debt to incur, especially when you will not be getting the attention that a terminal MA program would provide. There are some great terminal MA programs out there that will prepare you both for the job market and a PhD program (e.g. Williams, Tufts, UMass Amherst, UConn, some of the UC schools, SAIC, American U, etc.) You should definitely talk to your academic adviser if you can about your options. Best of luck!!

[tendaysleft]

Omnibuster, here are my thoughts on Williams vs. the Institute for the MA:

Williams is funded (at least partially for everyone, unless I'm mistaken, even if you are not fully funded living in western Massachusetts is going to be far cheaper than New York).

Williams takes you to Italy.

Williams has a great alumni network.

Williams can provide hands-on experience working with and from objects.

Williams admits a small cohort, meaning lots of attention from faculty, leading to more meaningful letters of recommendation.

I'm guessing that it's true that they have about a 50% placement in PhD programs.

NYU, well, it's in New York which is far preferable than Williamstown (4 hours from anywhere you want to be). Their faculty may be better on paper but again, competing for their attention will be difficult, especially when they have already relegated you to second tier status.

Hope this helps.

That definitely helps, thanks! My biggest reluctance with Williams is honestly the location and the fact that there is only one graduate program at the school. Being isolated in the middle of nowhere (I've lived in a big city my whole life) surrounded by undergraduates doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. But if the program itself really is that much better, I guess that might be a poor reason to not attend.

[fullofpink]

That definitely helps, thanks! My biggest reluctance with Williams is honestly the location and the fact that there is only one graduate program at the school. Being isolated in the middle of nowhere (I've lived in a big city my whole life) surrounded by undergraduates doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. But if the program itself really is that much better, I guess that might be a poor reason to not attend.

If you can, definitely visit the town. It wasn't what I was expecting at all. The nearest Target is about 30-40 minutes away, as is the nearest train/bus station. There is only one street of restaurants. It seems that North Adams - which is about 10 minutes away - has a bit more vibrant residential life and Bennington isn't that far either. My understanding is that the summer months are a really popular time for the area, thanks to all the festivals. But, I will say, the town is very, very, very small.

Edited March 14, 2012 by fullofpink