Fletcher vs. SAIS vs. SIPA

[rose1]

Might as well start weighing the options. Fletcher offered me funding, although not a ton (12K). I LOVE the sense of community they seem to build there and their job placement record is stellar. Their location is not the best.They do allow study abroad, which SAIS and SIPA don't, and give you access to classes at Harvard. Tufts has less name recognition abroad than the other two.

SAIS is in a better location and is more econ focused, which I like. They didn't accept me into IDEV, but I could choose any other concentration. I know more people in DC and I've taken classes at SAIS and loved them.

SIPA has the advantage of being an Ivy and being near the UN. I didn't expect to get in here so I haven't done as much research on it. Seems harder to get to know professors here.

[piquant777]

Congrats on getting to make a really tough choice! I agree that all the alumni rave about Fletcher and everyone there seems to unanimously love it. SAIS is great if you want to network in DC. I obviously can't tell you what to choose but here are a few more obtuse questions that I would ask myself when considering these schools:

1. Is a campus with full facilities important to you? If so, SAIS doesn't really have one as it's just a few branch buildings in DC and most of Johns Hopkins is in Baltimore. You won't have your own gym or lots of fancy facilities, etc. (at least from what I hear from alums)

2. Is writing a thesis appealing or not to you? At Fletcher most of your second year you will be doing this because you have to. If that's your thing, then great. If you'd rather do a practicum project or something less academic, then consider this factor. Most theses are 100+ pages long and involve intense amounts of work.

3. Is it important for you to pick a development concentration? Is development what you actually want to do? If so, you might be at a disadvantage graduating from SAIS but not from IDEV, which will churn out a lot of grads competing in that field for jobs.

That's about all I got for now. Hope it helps!

[charlotte_asia]

Is cross-registering at other programs important to you? I am not really making the same decision you are (in at Fletcher + SAIS but Fletcher is off the table for me now) but that's a consideration for me in my Georgetown-SAIS decision. Fletcher lets you take courses at Harvard and I think other Boston colleges. I don't think SAIS permits this, but I'm not certain.

[rose1]

I'm more concerned with the option to study abroad. I find it odd that so few top tier IR programs encourage this. Also my mom went to Tufts so it's my #1 for sentimental reasons (I've spent a lot of time there). I haven't heard back from Georgetown yet, so I might have to consider SFS too! Congratulations on getting into so many great programs! I just feel lucky that I have a decision to make at all.

[hoggerjp]

I think the reason why so few top IR programs offer study abroad option is that these schools expect you to already have the experience of having lived or worked overseas, or expects to you work overseas after the completion of a degree. For this reason, Fletcher does not offer foreign language classes for credit (though you are free to audit courses that are offered through Tufts). I do not know about you, but for me, picking out only 16 or so courses out of a myriad of wonderful course offering definitely is going to be a challenge, and I need all four semesters to benefit the most from these degree programs.

I myself am 80% certain that I will be enrolling at SAIS this fall. Mainly because I have taken classes at SAIS and loved them, though I really like Fletcher for the same reasons you had mentioned. But I would like to suggest you an activity that might be able to further guide your decision. Make an excel file with a list of courses that you feel like you must take while you are at these schools, and review the course schedules for the past two years or so to see if these courses were being actually offered. Check out if the professors who were teaching these courses will be present at the school for the next two years. Take into account all the requirements etc while doing so. Mapping out a hypothetical two-year curriculum for each of these schools may give rise to issues and aspects that you did not consider before.

Also, if you are planning on working in the multilateral / public sector, I would not make the perceived name value of these schools' home institutions drive any part of the decision, unless it is important for you to be recognized by those who are outside of this field. If such matters to you though, I think it is a legitimate concern on its own for fair reasons. All these programs are highly regarded and widely recognized within the IR / public field, however.

Location: how would you like to spend the next two years? SIPA's NY/ UN advantage will be relevant only if you are planning on getting UN-related internships during the academic semester. I spent my undergraduate years in NYC; though it was a wonderful program, I felt like I really missed out on the academic experience since everyone was off to do their own things after classes were done. If you would like to spend the next two years surrounded by books and fellow classmates, Fletcher might be the place to be. If your prospects in the chosen concentration will be benefited by being in the DC area, go to SAIS etc..

And most of all, congrats! Your options are just fantastic!

Edited March 14, 2012 by hoggerjp

[washdc]

Might as well start weighing the options. Fletcher offered me funding, although not a ton (12K). I LOVE the sense of community they seem to build there and their job placement record is stellar. Their location is not the best.They do allow study abroad, which SAIS and SIPA don't, and give you access to classes at Harvard. Tufts has less name recognition abroad than the other two.

SAIS is in a better location and is more econ focused, which I like. They didn't accept me into IDEV, but I could choose any other concentration. I know more people in DC and I've taken classes at SAIS and loved them.

SIPA has the advantage of being an Ivy and being near the UN. I didn't expect to get in here so I haven't done as much research on it. Seems harder to get to know professors here.

Just FYI there are UN divisions outside of NYC, in particular DC.. I am in school here in DC but still did a UN internship in NYC this past summer. So you don't have to go to school in the same city where you intern.

Having said all that, SAIS is the WAY better program - ivy name aside.. It is top dog in international affairs.

[jeewai]

You guys are awesome, rose1, Charlotte_Asia, Piquant777, washdc, hoggerp etc... Over the last couple of days, I was anxiously waiting for the top dogs decisions, just like you and could see, day after days, your signature profile admitted row getting longer and longer. It's just an amazing feeling to have been accepted to all these prestigious programmes and now have the luxury to actually having to decline a couple

Now, as rose1 put it, it's decicion time and it's gonna be a heck of a task, especially given that we've all been admitted to SAIS (I didn't get in IDEV) BUT still have a few weeks wait to know how much they're willing to spend on us. I believe that 1. school fees 2. programme location and 3. relevance to your intended path will be the keys to make an informed decision, and not so much the name, which only serves as an ego booster. At that level of competition, I mean in the top 6 programs, all the names are "brand" names anyway. And that said, I don't believe that SAIS places significantly more students in full time jobs than GWU does.

I'm seeking the best IDEV program out there. I don't want to do politics nor learning about security and trade stuff. SAIS without IDEV is like American without SIS :-) Fletcher is a bit of an oddity to me since it's so highly ranked, yet doesn't afford opportunities to intern, work full time in leading int org as would the other DC school. So what is it than so many would kill to be there? just wondering.

Congratulation again to the team on this thread ! Rockstar babies !

[rose1]

Wash DC - What makes you say that SAIS is the way better program? Really they are all ranked comparably.

Jeewai, I'm more inclined to agree with you and Piquant that not getting into IDEV might be a deal breaker for SAIS. I'm still waiting on financial aid though.

As for Fletcher, I'm not sure how heavily to weigh the fact that the location would make it hard to intern during the semester, since finding a paid internship in my field might make up for a lack of aid at SAIS or SIPA. Even for the summer I would prefer to find an internship in the same city where I go to school (simply for practical reasons - I live with with my boyfriend and our dog, and paying double rent all summer would be annoying). However, Fletcher's job placement record after graduation is comparable to the other schools and they seem to try really hard to make up for their location by providing a lot of career services.

Fletcher and SAIS also seem to have really close knit communities and access to professors, which is important to me, where SIPA just plain doesn't.

[Clay Made]

Congratulations on the admits! I didnt apply to SIPA purely based on the fact they offer no aid for 1st years and secondly, the size of the program is just obscene. Completely agree that it wont be a close knit program and it'll be hard to stand out. Imagine the applications the UN, World Bank receive from SIPA students?

@rose1 - did you get any aid from Columbia?

[rose1]

Nope. Not a penny.

[rose1]

Nope. Not a penny.

[piquant777]

I am personally meh on SIPA as well, so much so that I didn't apply there. If you look at the thread with admissions rates (granted they are 4-5 years old), SIPA is significantly less selective than the other programs and many view it as Columbia's cash cow. As you've noted, they are not good with financial aid and on top of that, living in NYC is insanely expensive.

I think it sounds like Fletcher is a great choice for you, and they offered you some money. Your mom went there so you know what a great community it is. jeewai, did you apply to grad school so that you could "intern, work full time" during it? That seems like an odd priority to have for me, since you're expected to do that before and after school but not during it. I think Fletcher's location gives it the great sense of community that some of these other schools don't have because everyone is running around off-campus stretching themselves thin with being in NYC or DC. Talk to some alums that admissions will put you in touch with; they all have only glowing things to say, especially about the campus community there.

[MYRNIST]

I am personally meh on SIPA as well, so much so that I didn't apply there. If you look at the thread with admissions rates (granted they are 4-5 years old), SIPA is significantly less selective than the other programs and many view it as Columbia's cash cow. As you've noted, they are not good with financial aid and on top of that, living in NYC is insanely expensive.

Completely agree. I crossed SIPA off my list early in the process. I talked to several alums, and they had very little positive to say, beyond the cool factor of living in NYC. They had several anecdotes about how huge and impersonal the program is.

Example: you have to "apply" to take desirable classes. As in, send in a resume and statement of purpose to compete for your spot in Class X. Thought getting accepted and paying through the nose meant you received access to the best faculty and courses, the ones they use in advertisements? Think again. My alum friend used the phrase "treated like cattle" multiple times in our conversation.

While there are plenty of really smart and talented people there, there apparently also is a fair amount of NYC-area unmotivated rich kids who are coasting it out on their parents dime. Ivy brand + not-that-rigorous selectivity + large class sizes + NYC lifestyle = lots of trust funders. I think this is where the "cash cow" perception comes in, since SIPA seems to admit some percentage of their class based on economic considerations, rather than "attracting the best and brightest." Not saying they are representative of the program, but I wouldn't want to go to any program that had more than a handful.

Any current SIPA students want to comment on whether my friends' perceptions of the program were atypical?

Edited March 15, 2012 by MYRNIST

[greendiplomat]

Completely agree. I personally crossed SIPA off my list fairly early in the process. I talked to several alums about it, and they had very little positive to say, beyond the cool factor of living in NYC. There were a few striking anecdotes about just how huge and impersonal the program is.

Example: you have to "apply" to take desirable classes... as in send in a resume and statement of purpose to compete for your spot in Class X. Thought getting accepted and paying through the nose meant you actually got access to the faculty? Think again. My alum friend used the phrase "treated like cattle" multiple times in our conversation.

While there are plenty of really smart and talented people there, there apparently also is a fair-sized population of NYC-area unmotivated rich kids who are coasting it out on their parents dime. Ivy brand + not-that-rigorous selectivity + huge class sizes + NYC lifestyle = lots of trust funders. I think this is where the "cash cow" perception comes in, since SIPA seems to admit a certain percentage of their class based on economic considerations, rather than "attracting best and brightest." Not saying they are representative of the program or anything, but I wouldn't want to go to any program that had more than a handful.

Any current SIPA students want to comment on whether my friends' perceptions of the program were atypical?

I feel like a lone soul in this forum, but I'll actually disagree. I think many people's perceptions of SIPA as a program are tinged by its poor financial aid (which I agree SIPA could do a much better job on). A big and expensive program can be impersonal, but that's not the impression I have of SIPA.

I went to Columbia for undergrad, walked into a SIPA class that I was interested in, asked the professor if I could take the class as an undergrad, and she let me in on the spot. As for the whole thing about applying for classes, those are maybe 10 or so specialist classes where the professor decides can't hold more than 15 or so people. Bear in mind that this is out of the 100+ classes offered every semester, and it's because the program's so big, that SIPA's able to offer such a wide array of classes on really specific areas of policy.

On the topic of the drawbacks of large programs, yes, it's hard to be recognized/remembered by the administration. That being said, aside from the core lectures, the vast majority of classes are capped at 25-35 people, so it's not hard to forge connections with professors. No, you won't have weekly pre-scheduled check-ins with deans, but the resources are there if you know what you need and seek those opportunities out.

As for the "cash-cow" perception that they admit "rich kids" for "economic considerations", I really think you're putting the carriage before the horse here---a high proportion of students with external sources of funding (whether scholarship or family) end up accepting their SIPA offers because of the school's admittedly poor financial aid, not because SIPA courts those students in particular.

Now, getting back on topic (Fletcher vs. SAIS vs. SIPA)---

I'd say the main differences between the programs are:

• Pragmatic vs. academic: Setting up a bit of a false dichotomy there, but I'd say that out of the three, SAIS and SIPA are more similar since they're "MPPish" IR schools that are more professional programs designed to equip graduates with the skills necessary to succeed in the international arena, whereas Tufts tends to be more academic, as can be seen by its thesis requirement and lack of "professional skills" requirements like accounting or management.
  
• Analytical rigor: SAIS definitely has the reputation for being the most quantitative out of the bunch, and, indeed, based on the fact that all SAIS graduates need to have intermediate macro/micro + international micro/macro (i.e. trade and finance respectively) SAIS is, on the whole, more quantitative. That said, you can definitely take the corresponding classes at Fletcher and SIPA if you wanted to, and since SAIS doesn't have other JHU departments at its disposal (more on this below), you can't beef up your quant much beyond that by taking graduate-level econ classes in the economics department or taking real analysis in the math department, like you can at the other two. (In short, the average curriculum at SAIS is more analytically rigorous than at Fletcher or SIPA, but if you were to look at the most quantitative curriculum you could possibly put together at each of the schools, I think SIPA and Fletcher would be ahead of SAIS, in that order.)
  
• Course selection: All 3 programs have great course offerings, but bear in mind that they differ in terms of how many classes you can take outside of their respective schools. SAIS is in a different city from JHU, so that's a definite no. Fletcher lets you take classes both within Tufts, as well as at Harvard, but places an upper limit of a quarter of your classes (i.e. 4 in total). Columbia doesn't have any limits on what classes you can take in the university, but between its core, concentration, and specialization requirements, there might be an effective limit that's similar to that at Tufts.
  
• Disciplinary strengths: Finally, one other thing to bear in mind is that they each have their strong policy fields. If international development is your calling, I would steer clear of SAIS if you didn't get into IDEV, despite their great connections with the World Bank. Tufts and Columbia both have strong development concentrations, though I get the distinct impression that Columbia's allows you to get a bit more quantitative, if that's your thing.
  

At the end of the day, you got into some of the top programs in the country, so first of all, congratulate yourself. Whatever you end up choosing, these are all great programs; you can't really go wrong here. If you're not really sure where you want to end up, I would just take the 12K at Fletcher and run with it. (Another way of looking at is, "Is the marginal allure that SAIS and/or SIPA have over Fletcher worth 12K?").

Now to face my own dilemma instead of procrastinating by trying to help others with theirs...

Edited March 15, 2012 by greendiplomat

[greendiplomat]

Oh yay! Thank you for +ing me. I was so sure I would be -ed. If I could, I would + you all back. *wink wink nudge nudge*.

OK... this one's going crazy and needs to go to bed! Night, guys, and I hope you all end up happy wherever you end up (which you will be, since, at this level, it's about using the resources at your disposal, not which exact resources you get).

Edited March 15, 2012 by greendiplomat

[avr2012]

Re: taking classes at Homewood as an MA candidate at SAIS.

I'm pretty sure this is possible. I know of a current BA/MA who is taking a PhD course in Hopkins' political science department. It's about a 50 minute train ride from Union to Penn Station, and then a 5 minute cab from Penn to the 3400 block of N. Charles (I'm an undergrad at Homewood). So it's definitely logistically possible, and said BA/MA candidate appears to be getting credit for the course they are taking. Now, I don't know if this is encouraged or discouraged, but if a class at Homewood is relevant for a capstone paper or something of that sort, than I can't imagine SAIS would have a problem with it. I'm sure there's some limit to how many courses you can take here, however.

[Azrou]

• Disciplinary strengths: Finally, one other thing to bear in mind is that they each have their strong policy fields. If international development is your calling, I would steer clear of SAIS if you didn't get into IDEV, despite their great connections with the World Bank. Tufts and Columbia both have strong development concentrations, though I get the distinct impression that Columbia's allows you to get a bit more quantitative, if that's your thing.
  

Can you elaborate a little more on this? I got into SAIS but not into IDEV, and Intl development is my career goal. The acceptance letter says that I can still participate in courses and activities offered by the IDEV program, although I'm sure there is a process behind that and it's not just a free-for-all. Is this a matter of what you can actually put on paper as your concentration?

[rose1]

I think at this point fletcher is looking like my best bet, although I haven't heard from SAIS about funding yet. I do plan on emailing SAIS to see if there's any possibility of being admitted to IDEV depending on the number of people that enroll. Also still waiting on SFS. I almost forget about Georgetown since I've known about the rest for a few days!

[hudwa]

As for the "cash-cow" perception that they admit "rich kids" for "economic considerations", I really think you're putting the carriage before the horse here---a high proportion of students with external sources of funding (whether scholarship or family) end up accepting their SIPA offers because of the school's admittedly poor financial aid, not because SIPA courts those students in particular.

To add to the external funding sources point, a significant number of SIPA students are sponsored by their company or government, especially foreign civil servants. Like greendiplomat mentioned, they were not courted, they are simply attracted to SIPA for the location and SIPA likes them because they bring diversity of experience and professionalism to the student class. I know that sounds like it was taken from a brochure, but this is what I've heard from current and former students. On top of saving fellowship and aid money for those of us without external funding, the sponsored foreign students do add to the educational experience just by being there and taking part in student life.

[erry3779]

I really can't wait my SIPA decision... If I got in.. I will be needing this thread so bad!

[cannotdecide]

Given it seems many of us got into SIPA without funding, is it worth it to spend SO much money to go there and earn an MIA degree? I am extremely interested in SIPA, and the name of the school and the wide array of opportunities certainly help. However, I just don't know if spending so much money to go to Columbia is worth it if one has been accepted to other, very good institutions with some funding.Given the current economy and job potential after a two year master's...and I am not lucky enough to have a company sponsor me either.

I mean, there is a saying that it's not the place you go to, but what you make of your experiences with the resources given. I have been hearing a lot about SIPA's 'impersonal' style, and how it is a place where you have to really work hard to be noticed, and the "cash cow" sentiment has certainly been emphasized. Furthermore, if you look at career placement statistics, it is not that drastically different from Tuft's or Chicago's numbers....

I am just not sure what to do at this point I guess (similar situation, where I am thinking about SIPA, Tufts, and CIPA as well....). Lots to think about!

[rose1]

Basically I feel like there is no wrong decision since they're all amazing schools, so i might as well go to the one that puts me in the least debt and feels like the best fit for me, which seems like Fletcher. That being said, I still will be at the SAIS and SIPA admit days!

[greendiplomat]

Basically I feel like there is no wrong decision since they're all amazing schools, so i might as well go to the one that puts me in the least debt and feels like the best fit for me, which seems like Fletcher. That being said, I still will be at the SAIS and SIPA admit days!

Yes, exactly the approach you should be taking, and while I didn't make it explicit in my post, I also think that Fletcher seemed right for you (esp. given the funding), barring intuition telling you otherwise after the admit days.

Remember--the ball was in the admissions committees' courts to let us in based on what we presented them; now it's in our court while the admissions committees try to win us over. Enjoy it!

Edited March 16, 2012 by greendiplomat

[understatement700]

One thing I specifically like about Fletcher is that they do tend to give out more money to students right up front. I received some funding from Fletcher, of course I wish they'd give me more, but I'm for now happy to know I at least don't have to pay full sticker price to attend a great school. Fletcher also has a loan-assistance repayment option for students who do have debt but choose to take careers that might not be so lucrative. That I'm aware of, none of the other IR schools have a program like this, and whatever my financial situation or future career, this makes me respect them that much more.

Of course I'm waiting on funding decisions from all schools except Fletcher so we'll have to see. I'm waiting for someone to make me an offer I can't refuse.