Biostats School Applications List and PhD vs Masters question

[APOCooter]

A few months ago I started a thread about where I should be thinking about going. Well, now that it's summer and I'll be starting applications soon, I just wanted to get some final thoughts and opinions on different schools and plans.

First, about me:

I'm a white male attending a small state school in New York. I currently have a degree in English (not particularly relevant, but just to give you an idea of the 180 in terms of material I've been studying; also, to explain some of the weaker grades I have) and will be finishing a degree in applied mathematics with a minor in applied statistics in the fall.

I currently have a 3.32 GPA and have received the following grades:

Intro Stats A and B: A

Calc I: B+

Calc II: A-

Calc III: B- (I am retaking this class this coming semester. I'm very confident that I'll get, at minimum, a B+)

Linear Algebra: A-

Discrete Math: A

Linear & Integer Programming: A-

Mathematical Statistics (two semester sequence): B+/B

Real Analysis: C+

Numerical Analysis: C

Additionally, I am currently working at an internship doing data mining and statistical analysis at a local hospital. I expect to have three good, if not strong, letters of reference. I have not taken my GRE yet, but if it's at all like the other standardized tests I've taken, I'll end up somewhere in the 90^th percentile (let's be safe and say 85^th); I don't know exactly where that is in terms of GRE scoring, but it should be a good ballpark.

These are the schools that are currently on my list to apply (not in any particular order):

University of Michigan

UNC

University of Wisconsin

University of Minnesota

Boston College

Pittsburgh

Florida State

Given my grades, are any of these a big stretch? Are there any notable schools that I have a decent shot (greater than 50%) gaining admission? Is this list long enough? Should I have more safety schools?

Also, a tangentally related question: Boston College has as a requirement 4 credit hours of linear algebra. None of the schools I've attended have four credit hours worth of linear alebra (even as lower and upper level courses), however, I've had classes that use elements of linear algebra. Will I be okay applying there, or should I just scratch them off the list?

I'm also undecided whether to apply for Masters programs, or directly to PhD programs. For what it's worth, I have no desire to teach (as a career). Assuming I can get in to either

PhD

Pros: I can be funded, thus getting it for free/cheap. Better job opporunities down the road. I can make people address me as Dr. APOCooter.

Cons: I'm going to be almost 29 when I finish this bachelor's degree. Assuming everything goes smoothly, I would be 34 when I'm awarded my PhD. I've already given up nearly a decade's worth of earning potential; I don't know if I can do it for another three years (especially if I'm paying full price tution for those three years). I also don't know if I'm smart enough to get a PhD.

Masters

Pros: Less time, possibly less money spent in/on school. Could always go back for a PhD after.

Cons: It's likely that I wouldn't be funded or receive RA/TA position. My career opportunities could be limited (who is more likely to get a promotion, 10 years experience and an MA, or 5 years experience and a PhD?).

I think that's everything. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Edited July 9, 2012 by APOCooter

[ongtz]

There are so many factors to consider when accepting students; GRE, Curriculum vitae, SOP, recommendations. Try not to undermine Masters (although funding is a stressful thing judging from the cost of education today) because the market does have a demand for biostatisticians. I am currently summer interning in st jude children's research hospital and to my surprise, the biostatistics department comprise around 50% of master degree holders.

You can probably try applying MS and PhD at the same time (kinda like a Plan A and Plan B else one fails). It was very nerve-wrecking for me because I applied PhD to 7 schools and all got rejected. I was lucky enough to be admitted into a MS program in the fall. Try taking a step at a time and exhaust all resources you can, those are what my seniors told me. For me being an international student, I am going to squeeze every single penny just to make sure my position here in the United States is stable. It is a risk game. If given the chance to rewind time, I would try applying everywhere, even competitive schools. Here are some schools you can add into the list for consideration:

Ohio State University

University of Chicago, IL

University of Urbana-Champaign

Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee

Oregon State University, Corvallis

Purdue University

Loyola University Chicago (Masters only) <--- the only application that accepted me. got a GA position too. give it a try

Iowa State University

University of Iowa

Kansas State University

All the best to you

[Hanyuye]

wow, APOCOOTER, we have the same foundation (English degree graduate here)! Except your math grades are much better than mine. Too many distractions on my case and I can't seem to get a second A in any math class. How are you excelling?!

As for your choices are very well-rounded, including ongtz's suggestions. If you want that PH.D right off the bat, perhaps if you incline what area of research you want to delve into or specialties.

I'm applying only to Masters this coming winter, I was rejected for 4 PH.D programs simply because my undergrad courses and lack of research didn't entice anyone.

[cyberwulf]

Your top 4 schools are reaches for (funded) PhD admission, but you'll probably have a decent chance of getting into their MS programs. I would expect that you would have some success if applying to PhD programs at schools like Pitt, NC, and FSU.

If you decide to pursue the MS instead of a PhD, the name and reputation of the program you choose isn't as important as it is if you go the PhD route.

[Shostakovich]

first of all good luck w/ your admissions.

i was also wondering whether MS or PhD would be better to apply to, but decided i'm most likely going to apply to MS programs since I've been out of school for awhile and have been working in a field that's not very related. Funded PhD programs sound nice in theory, but I'd imagine they're much tougher to get into, and looks like some top schools are reluctant to accept candidates without a MS into their PhD programs unless they are pretty much perfect candidates. Personally I have a good math background (with a major in math, ballpark 3.8~ major gpa 3.75~ overall) and most likely will get a solid GRE score, but i don't have much relevant research exp and like i said i've been out of the grind for awhile.

as of now i'm leaning towards doing a MS at an in-state public school to save on cost, but will have to see what options i have to work with in spring next year.

[cyberwulf]

Shostakovich, not having research experience or an MS should not be a major barrier to being accepted into a PhD program. Many programs do not require a previous Masters for PhD admission, and most that do have a "fast track" pre-doctoral MS option with some funding available. It sounds like your undergraduate background and grades would be competitive for PhD admission at some good places (depending on where you did your undergrad, what your rec letters are like, etc.), so you should probably consider the direct-to-PhD route if a doctoral degree is your eventual goal.

Edited July 12, 2012 by cyberwulf

[Shostakovich]

Shostakovich, not having research experience or an MS should not be a major barrier to being accepted into a PhD program. Many programs do not require a previous Masters for PhD admission, and most that do have a "fast track" pre-doctoral MS option with some funding available. It sounds like your undergraduate background and grades would be competitive for PhD admission at some good places (depending on where you did your undergrad, what your rec letters are like, etc.), so you should probably consider the direct-to-PhD route if a doctoral degree is your eventual goal.

thanks for the reply cyberwulf,

my degree is from an institution ranked around top 40 maybe a bit higher than 40 but not by much, i guess it changes every year. should be getting some decent recs, perhaps not too great, i've already spoken to my professors and they're more than willing to write good letters for me.

since it seems like you're a faculty, and if you dont mind me asking how much more difficult do you think PhD admissions are compared to MS admissions? reason i'm asking is i want to leave the option to stay near home in california open so i was thinking about submitting MS apps for at least the california schools i'm applying to so i'd have a better shot at getting in. and do you know how helpful having a MS in biostats is in applying to PhD programs?

thanks again for your input.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Shostakovich

[Agun]

Precisely my question how difficult is it to get in west coast schools. I have an MS degree and work experience in NC area and I want to apply for a PHD program in bay area as we would be moving there soon. I know nothing of west coast schools but heard they are very competitive as there are very few schools there. I am planning to apply for Bio-statistics dept as getting in Statistics department might be difficult for me. Any guidance will be greatly appreciated.

[cyberwulf]

There are two excellent departments of Biostatistics on the West Coast: Berkeley and the University of Washington. Berkeley is a pretty small department (< 15 faculty, probably about 5 incoming PhD students per year), but Washington is huge (> 60 faculty, > 20 incoming PhD students per year). UCLA has a solid department, but not on the level of those two places.

Stanford is a great place with several faculty doing biostat-oriented work, but it's a stat department so the applicant pool looks quite different and it will be much harder to get into. Same applies to Berkeley stat.

The relative difficulty of getting into MS and PhD programs varies by school, but in general it is much easier to gain admittance to an MS program because funding is generally not offered. While having an MS can make you a stronger candidate for PhD admission, you have to be careful because some MS programs offer little or no mathematical statistics and hence don't significantly improve your chances. Doing such a "preparatory" MS is a good idea for those who are really unsure whether graduate study in stats/biostats is for them, or if your previous academic record is too weak to make you a viable candidate for direct to PhD admission (in which case stellar performance in a Masters program could alleviate concerns about your readiness for further graduate study). If you decide to do an MS with an eye towards a PhD, you really need to get yourself into a top 10-15 stats or top 5 biostat masters program; good performance at a weaker program doesn't give an adcom much information beyond what they can gather from your undergraduate record and letters.

Edited July 12, 2012 by cyberwulf

[Agun]

Thanks cyberwulf for explaining it so well...I have a masters in stats from nc state and have 6 years experience doing cancer research..we are planning to move to bay area .. even though I would love to go to Washington..I cannot for other reasons...

1. Berkeley biostat

2. UC Davis Statistics

3. UC Santa Cruz

4. Not applying to Stanford as It might be a stretch

Thanks again a bunch..

[cyberwulf]

Why not just apply to Stanford stat and see what happens? An MS from NCSU and 6 years research experience are nothing to sneeze at...

[Agun]

True..I might end up applying there but have no hopes what so ever. Berkeley offers both Statistics and Biostatistics degree (school of public health)...but we can apply only to one program in a calendar year. I am in two minds as to which department I should choose. The Statistics department like Stanford is ranked very high and I dont know if I stand a chance among them..even though I would love to be a part of their program. The Biostatistics group is small and as you mentioned accepts very few per year ..but almost all the professors are from the department of Statistics....

do you have any suggestion Cyberwulf.

[cyberwulf]

I would apply to Berkeley biostat. It sounds like you want to do biostat, and Berkeley stat is pretty theory oriented. Lacking a biostat deparment, Stanford has a strong group of biostat folks on the stat department, so they are worth considering as well.

[Agun]

Again thanks for your advice. Yes..my main interests are in analysis of high dimensional genetic data and clinical trials. Do you have any idea about UC Davis (quite a drive from Bay area) and UC Santa Cruz. I want to have some safety schools.

[ANDS!]

Hoo hoo. There are some very bright and well known folks working at Davis - don't let that "Safety school. . ." talk slip into conversation. If you aren't interested in a school why apply? They should all be schools you want to get in, not a safety net.

[cyberwulf]

Davis is a solid stat department, but they aren't known for biostatistics. Don't know much about UCSC.

If you're looking at other places in the Bay Area, it might be worth checking out UCSF. I noticed that they've just started a new PhD program in Epidemiology and Translational Science: http://www.epibiosta...s/doctoral.html

As a general guideline in searching for biostat programs, you're usually better off looking at institutions which have a medical school (Berkeley being the notable exception).

Edited July 14, 2012 by cyberwulf

[ANDS!]

Davis has it's own separate graduate group for Bio. I believe the application process is through the department of stats, but their offices and instruction is well entrenched in Public Health.

[APOCooter]

Your top 4 schools are reaches for (funded) PhD admission, but you'll probably have a decent chance of getting into their MS programs. I would expect that you would have some success if applying to PhD programs at schools like Pitt, NC, and FSU.

If you decide to pursue the MS instead of a PhD, the name and reputation of the program you choose isn't as important as it is if you go the PhD route.

I've decided that it would probably be better for me overall to pursue an MS for now with the possibility of a PhD later. With that being said, you mentioned in another post that it would be better to try and get into a top 5 biostat MS program. Obviously, three of the top 5 are Johns Hopkins, Harvard, and the University of Washington. Are there schools (preferably) on the east coast/midwest that could reasonably be considered in that list that I haven't yet mentioned? Also, would the University of Washington be too much of a stretch for their MS program? I ruled it out for myself after this past semester (C+ in real analysis and C in numerical), but if University of Wishconsin, Boston College and University of Michigan are reasonable for MS, maybe Washington is too?

[cyberwulf]

Also, would the University of Washington be too much of a stretch for their MS program? I ruled it out for myself after this past semester (C+ in real analysis and C in numerical), but if University of Wishconsin, Boston College and University of Michigan are reasonable for MS, maybe Washington is too?

UW is a bit weird in that their Masters program is pretty small, and it seems like most of their MS students are local to the area. Hard to know what your chances would be like getting in there. As far as solid Masters programs in your neck of the woods, I would consider adding Columbia and Brown to your list. I would consider both to be stronger than BC, Pitt, and FSU. Boston University is another place to look into.

[cyberwulf]

Oh, and I forgot to mention UPenn, which is also a very good program (probably around #10 nationally).

[Shostakovich]

so far on my list are UW, Berkeley, UCLA, USC, UC Davis, and maybe Stanford in the west coast. maybe a mix and match of phd and MS programs. not sure about which other programs yet, but most likely will just go off the program descriptions/rankings list.

looks like that PhD program at UCSF has a MS requirement, so i guess it's off my radar for now.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Shostakovich

[APOCooter]

I just met with one of my professors to ask about a letter of recommendation, and he asked which schools to which I am applying. I gave him my list, and he started giving me the really hard sell for the University of Rochester (it's a very good program "one of the best", it's closer to home, cheaper because I'm an in state resident, easier to get into because students from my school already have a good track record there, etc). I knew that had a program, but I didn't know if it was any good. I just did a quick rankings search, and I see it as a top 50 program at best. Am I missing something?

If it turns out that it's a decent school, I'd definitely consider it, since what he mentioned are all appealing (cost, location, etc), but it doesn't seem like it's a top tier school, even by my (becoming) more modest standards.

Edited September 10, 2012 by APOCooter