Switching Programs Week 1, advice needed...

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

I am a grad student in Physics. However, I'm having trouble with the core classes and don't think I can graduate quickly. I also find that I'm simply not interested in the way how physics approaches problems and the problems that are interesting to physicists. They seem to be much more theoretical than I realized. Reading papers on Arxiv and listening to the researchers here talk, I feel like all of them are answering highly theoretical problems thinking in terms of models, rather than actually designing new materials, processes, devices and ultimately, products that are marketable.

I also realized I'm simply not good enough at higher math (math beyond calculus, vector calculus and differential equations) to be a successful physicist. Complex analysis, for instance, is the first subject of our math methods class and things like complex differentiability and branch cuts are already coming up. I have never seen this before, I can't even do a single problem (I tried reviewing this over the summer, and failed. I still can't do a single problem). The math is just going to get worse when we move to tensors and Greens functions. This is nothing like the math methods class I had in undergrad which was built on the science/engineering math core and involved stuff like integral (Fourier and Laplace) transforms, ODEs and PDEs.

Instead, I want to switch to chemistry. I have a solid background of organic/inorganic/analytical/physical chemistry, took a grad quantum class and have a year of research. I switched to physics because I thought I wanted to be more "quantitative" but didn't know it was going to be *this* quantitative. All the math I've done will be used in chemistry and *no more*, which is the good part. I'll also be able to graduate earlier.

I've already talked to the director of the chemistry program and they say they'll be glad to take me, as soon as physics allows me to switch out. However, the school is forcing me to stay an extra year, so I'll be registered as a physics student while taking chemistry. Originally I had funding for physics, but I'm scared that they'll take it away once I announce I'll switch, but if I don't announce I'll switch, I'm going to be behind for chemistry since it'll be an entire year wasted of no research and no classes.

Would you recommend switching? How should I talk to the physics advisor about this?

Edited August 28, 2012 by SymmetryOfImperfection

[BrokenRecord]

Let me preface this by saying I have very limited knowledge of the physics field in particular the higher level math courses involved.

It seems that you found yourself in the same situation that many grad students find themselves in the first week: overwhelmed, insecure, fearful of the unknown, etc. I have to implore you that those feelings you are feeling are very NORMAL in this transition between undergrad and graduate level work.

With that being said, I think to start you have to just calm down, sit back and be proactive about this situation. Your mind is clouded and quite frankly you aren't in that stable of judgement to make any major decision at this point, especially switching departments. Here is how I would go about it from here on out.

1) Make an appointment with your advisor ASAP to set out a realistic goal/plan for your degree completion. They've already made an investment in you given your lack of pre-reqs and you should be a good steward of that gift in being honest and upfront about your limitations with math courses. Tell him/her what your applied research interests are. They'd be best to advise you on your situation and how to move forward. Even if that does involve switching departments, at least you will be in the clear and have the respect of the department---which you won't have if you just switched to chemistry without a good faith effort.

2) Stay in the program at least for this semester (3 months) and do the best you can on your coursework. Coursework in a lot of ways is not going to be the most enjoyable nor easiest part of graduate school. I'd venture to say that many graduate students take courses that they've never seen before. I have to take courses on ventilation for my program---yes, HVAC systems and pharmacokinetics? I also have to take higher level stats courses to which I haven't had adequate undergraduate training for. But coursework is the fulcrum to which your holistic understanding of the subject pivots. And rote memorization of calculations is not enough, as you seem to be most worried about. If that were the case, math wizards wouldn't drop out of math PhD programs. It is having the conceptual understanding of the material that is the most difficult, yet necessary devil to master.

3) Make it a point to speak with all the physics AND chemistry faculty and see what work they are doing, or will be doing in the future as grant cycles come through. One week is not enough time to gauge that. For the record, physics and chemistry are very popular cross-disciplinary subject areas especially in the realm of nanotechnology and physical chemistry. You might find that you'll be able to work on a more applied subject with faculty in both departments for your thesis.

In short, take it one day at a time. I can relate in a sense that I am in a field that is tangentially related to my BS. It is a very niche field that I never thought I'd be doing. Research interests change and develop throughout the course of an academic career. Graduate students are very lucky if they can work on exactly the project they want to, so don't be discouraged if it doesn't happen for you. The majority of the time, they end up working on their professor's project. In that case, it is about finding the little speck of curiosity and interest in the work, highlighting that for own sanity and just grinding through the rest.

It's only your first week, breathe, take a jog, and be transparent as possible and open so your department can help you while its early!

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Let me preface this by saying I have very limited knowledge of the physics field in particular the higher level math courses involved.

It seems that you found yourself in the same situation that many grad students find themselves in the first week: overwhelmed, insecure, fearful of the unknown, etc. I have to implore you that those feelings you are feeling are very NORMAL in this transition between undergrad and graduate level work.

With that being said, I think to start you have to just calm down, sit back and be proactive about this situation. Your mind is clouded and quite frankly you aren't in that stable of judgement to make any major decision at this point, especially switching departments. Here is how I would go about it from here on out.

1) Make an appointment with your advisor ASAP to set out a realistic goal/plan for your degree completion. They've already made an investment in you given your lack of pre-reqs and you should be a good steward of that gift in being honest and upfront about your limitations with math courses. Tell him/her what your applied research interests are. They'd be best to advise you on your situation and how to move forward. Even if that does involve switching departments, at least you will be in the clear and have the respect of the department---which you won't have if you just switched to chemistry without a good faith effort.

2) Stay in the program at least for this semester (3 months) and do the best you can on your coursework. Coursework in a lot of ways is not going to be the most enjoyable nor easiest part of graduate school. I'd venture to say that many graduate students take courses that they've never seen before. I have to take courses on ventilation for my program---yes, HVAC systems and pharmacokinetics? I also have to take higher level stats courses to which I haven't had adequate undergraduate training for. But coursework is the fulcrum to which your holistic understanding of the subject pivots. And rote memorization of calculations is not enough, as you seem to be most worried about. If that were the case, math wizards wouldn't drop out of math PhD programs. It is having the conceptual understanding of the material that is the most difficult, yet necessary devil to master.

3) Make it a point to speak with all the physics AND chemistry faculty and see what work they are doing, or will be doing in the future as grant cycles come through. One week is not enough time to gauge that. For the record, physics and chemistry are very popular cross-disciplinary subject areas especially in the realm of nanotechnology and physical chemistry. You might find that you'll be able to work on a more applied subject with faculty in both departments for your thesis.

In short, take it one day at a time. I can relate in a sense that I am in a field that is tangentially related to my BS. It is a very niche field that I never thought I'd be doing. Research interests change and develop throughout the course of an academic career. Graduate students are very lucky if they can work on exactly the project they want to, so don't be discouraged if it doesn't happen for you. The majority of the time, they end up working on their professor's project. In that case, it is about finding the little speck of curiosity and interest in the work, highlighting that for own sanity and just grinding through the rest.

It's only your first week, breathe, take a jog, and be transparent as possible and open so your department can help you while its early!

Thank you for the recommendations. I've already made appointments to talk with the rest of the physics faculty that I haven't talked with already. However, I don't think this will help. There's 3 professors doing experimental materials research; the rest are doing theoretical and computational. I'm not a good programmer, I tried to learn it several times and the first time, I was rescued by a very nice TA, second time, I slammed into a brick wall. With my math skills and background, I don't think that I'm going to do astro, particle, etc. 1 of the professors, who I was told by older grad students was very strict, still hasn't responded to my email requesting a meeting to tour his lab and talk about his research. Both the other professors are doing magnetism research that I didn't even know how to start asking questions for.

I've also asked the advisor for a meeting to see how to graduate and how to study more effectively in the math class. However I'm not optimistic; I bought the books and reviewed for most classes during the summer instead of relaxing or working and went into this with both eyes open knowing that its going to be a long haul. I just didn't realize it was going to be even worse than I imagined.

I don't mind working on a professor's project. I didn't even expect to work on my own project at all and instead was prepared to listen to the professor and do what was told then write a thesis based on the professor's project.

However, it seems that my understanding of what the professors project actually was, was not correct. I'll be doing research on a topic I've only learned about in class in a 1 day rushed lecture (magnetism) and with instruments I didn't even know existed.

I guess I kind of rushed into this, since in my undergrad I always thought I didn't do something "quantitative" enough and thought I was doing stuff that "anyone else could do". I didn't consider the effects of cohort (very similar to your situation) as so important but it seems to be important now. So I wanted to do stuff that "not everyone can do". Damn, it sounds so foolish now.

It turns out that I was correct, that "not everyone" can do physics... but didn't consider the possibility that the "not everyone" could include myself.

[BrokenRecord]

Thank you for the recommendations. I've already made appointments to talk with the rest of the physics faculty that I haven't talked with already. However, I don't think this will help. There's 3 professors doing experimental materials research; the rest are doing theoretical and computational. I'm not a good programmer, I tried to learn it several times and the first time, I was rescued by a very nice TA, second time, I slammed into a brick wall. With my math skills and background, I don't think that I'm going to do astro, particle, etc. 1 of the professors, who I was told by older grad students was very strict, still hasn't responded to my email requesting a meeting to tour his lab and talk about his research. Both the other professors are doing magnetism research that I didn't even know how to start asking questions for.

I've also asked the advisor for a meeting to see how to graduate and how to study more effectively in the math class. However I'm not optimistic; I bought the books and reviewed for most classes during the summer instead of relaxing or working and went into this with both eyes open knowing that its going to be a long haul. I just didn't realize it was going to be even worse than I imagined.

I don't mind working on a professor's project. I didn't even expect to work on my own project at all and instead was prepared to listen to the professor and do what was told then write a thesis based on the professor's project.

However, it seems that my understanding of what the professors project actually was, was not correct. I'll be doing research on a topic I've only learned about in class in a 1 day rushed lecture (magnetism) and with instruments I didn't even know existed.

I guess I kind of rushed into this, since in my undergrad I always thought I didn't do something "quantitative" enough and thought I was doing stuff that "anyone else could do". I didn't consider the effects of cohort (very similar to your situation) as so important but it seems to be important now. So I wanted to do stuff that "not everyone can do". Damn, it sounds so foolish now.

It turns out that I was correct, that "not everyone" can do physics... but didn't consider the possibility that the "not everyone" could include myself.

Were you required to take the subject physics GRE?

May I also ask how you tailored your personal statement when applying as far as faculty interests were concerned? Do the faculty have webpages where they list their research projects and interests? You mentioned 3 faculty doing experimental materials research...if I'm not mistaken, that is mostly chemistry based?

It still seems from my perspective that you are in shock-mode and overwhelmed at the difficult start. You've also been proactive in making appointments with advisors. To the one that hasn't yet responded via email, drop by his office in person or make an appointment with the secretary as emails tend to get overlooked and such. Ultimately, it is one thing to recognize your limitations and its another to put undue pressure on yourself to achieve perfect grasp on all the material within one week of courses. You are also not supposed to learn all about your research project during one lecture (if you could, why would you be in graduate school?). That is a very unrealistic mindset as most graduate students still have to incessantly study and learn new laboratory instrumentation--even with more preparation than yourself.

With that being said, I'm still concerned that your only reason for wanting to switch to chemistry is that its less math intensive than physics, not that you have distinct research differences. I can't stress enough how important it is to make decisions with clarity and sound reasoning. You could very well end up in the same situation in the chemistry department with certain principles and instrumentation that are outside your reach.

Ultimately I think you are on the right track, once you meet with your advisor, not just on "how" to graduate, but more specifically:

1) A written yearly plan/track toward degree completion

2) Courses (maybe electives or even undergrad) that you can take as remedial toward thesis work with the time frame included in the yearly track

3) Clear articulation of research interests (theoretical vs. experimental) and how to go about lab rotations and getting in touch with different professors in physics and/or in collaboration with chemistry. Sidenote: This is what you MUST have a handle on before you speak with your advisor, you have to give him some direction of where you see your research interests centering. I don't think you know that as of yet, so this should be priority #1

Once you've done those things, the only thing you can do is to try your best this semester and at the end reassess with your advisor about your progress toward the end and if any changes can be made to accommodate your situation. If you do decide to change departments, make sure you align with one of the chemistry professors willing to take you on as a graduate student AND either them or the department is willing to fund you. Of course you could have had more foresight into making this decision but it's something to be said about making the wrong decision right. It's not the end of the world and you have the opportunity to tackle it by being proactive about it quickly.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Thanks for the advice. I'm seeing him today and will be following your recommendations.

[ktel]

I have a bit of a different perspective, being in a math and computer programming intensive program that I don't particularly love. I am only in a 2 year Master's program, so I have decided to stay (since I'm also halfway through), but I could not see myself doing a PhD in this field at all, and if I was in the PhD stream I would strongly consider leaving or switching into a different area. Unfortunately I did not go in with my eyes as wide open as they perhaps should have been, and am now paying the price.

Obviously switching a week into the program will have significant implications in regards to things like funding and people's general impression of you. These are all things you need to consider. What you also have to consider is whether switching into chemistry is really the solution for you. From what I understand you want to be doing research that is close to producing a final product. Something more practical. With this in mind, you need to very specifically look at who you would be researching with, as it has been my observation that a lot of research at graduate school can be incredibly theoretical.

Do a lot of thinking, but don't let people play down your feelings as over reactions, because they might not be. Also be sure not to over idealize your options because you are unhappy with your current choice, as the grass is not always greener on the other side. You need to analyze exactly what you want and figure out exactly where you need to go to get it.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

I have a bit of a different perspective, being in a math and computer programming intensive program that I don't particularly love. I am only in a 2 year Master's program, so I have decided to stay (since I'm also halfway through), but I could not see myself doing a PhD in this field at all, and if I was in the PhD stream I would strongly consider leaving or switching into a different area. Unfortunately I did not go in with my eyes as wide open as they perhaps should have been, and am now paying the price.

Obviously switching a week into the program will have significant implications in regards to things like funding and people's general impression of you. These are all things you need to consider. What you also have to consider is whether switching into chemistry is really the solution for you. From what I understand you want to be doing research that is close to producing a final product. Something more practical. With this in mind, you need to very specifically look at who you would be researching with, as it has been my observation that a lot of research at graduate school can be incredibly theoretical.

Do a lot of thinking, but don't let people play down your feelings as over reactions, because they might not be. Also be sure not to over idealize your options because you are unhappy with your current choice, as the grass is not always greener on the other side. You need to analyze exactly what you want and figure out exactly where you need to go to get it.

I'm in a MS program too, but it won't be "just for 2 years" since at orientation, it was made clear that the average time was 3 years and I was informed otherwise at my interview (they said its 2 years). Thats *with* a BS physics degree... I just met the bare minimum number of classes to get in so how long would this take? 4 years? I made a 2 year schedule that involved 3 classes + research each semester. Now I don't know how realistic it is. If students with actual degrees in physics, who only have to take 1-2 grad classes a semester, need 3 years, how long do I need?

Since I'm going for a final PhD, the quality of my research and GPA both need to be very high to be competitive. I doubt I'll get to publish in the physics department since I'll have to learn new instruments, new theories, even new journal formats that I wouldn't need to if I did chemistry.

Also, you're right, I should think carefully, but I do not have the ability to distinguish what is a "good topic" in physics and what is a "bad topic" the way I can in chemistry, simply because I lack experience. I know whats an applied and theoretical project in chemistry, how far from deployment things are, etc. I cannot distinguish applied and fundamental physics because I have no idea how far away from practical deployment their projects really are. For example, ferroelectric memory. How far away are we from commercializing this? No idea. I don't understand ferroelectricity or information storage too well but this is a core research topic in materials physics while chemistry doesn't care; chemistry cares more about stuff like polymers, sensors and surface engineering.

But you are also right that switching now would severely influence my funding and also lower my reputation at the physics department. This is important because I'll still have to take some courses in the physics department. So this is my big worry. Then again, if I do not switch now, it'll be too late to attend the chemistry classes.

[juilletmercredi]

Is it possible for you to work with chemistry faculty and do chemistry coursework while remaining in the physics program? Depending on your university or program, this may or may not make sense for you. But I attend a PhD program in psychology that only has 3 required courses (9 credits) out of a 30-credit program that absolutely have to be taken in psychology. The purpose is to allow interdisciplinary interests to be developed, and a lot of our students cospecialize in political science, business, biology, economics, and other fields.

You also say that if you don't switch now it will be took late to take the chemistry classes. Does your department not let you take any classes outside of the department at all? Surely some of the physics students have crossdisciplinary interests that require them to take classes in, say, chemistry or computer science. Can't you register for some chem classes without having made a hard and fast decision? Your adviser or DGS can answer that.

I will echo, though, that in the beginning you are always doing something that you haven't learned much about. That's the purpose of graduate school - to learn more about it. I agree with both sides of the advice that you have. I think you are feeling some imposter syndrome - most graduate students feel behind, and all graduate students have to learn new instruments, new theories, and new journal formats. They still publish. I agree with the advice to talk to your adviser and ask him/her how behind you really are and whether you are prepare enough to do the work within physics. They admitted you for a reason.

However, you also know yourself better than anyone else, so if you are still feeling this way in a few weeks and feel like you can't claw your way out, it may be in your best interests to switch.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Is it possible for you to work with chemistry faculty and do chemistry coursework while remaining in the physics program? Depending on your university or program, this may or may not make sense for you. But I attend a PhD program in psychology that only has 3 required courses (9 credits) out of a 30-credit program that absolutely have to be taken in psychology. The purpose is to allow interdisciplinary interests to be developed, and a lot of our students cospecialize in political science, business, biology, economics, and other fields.

You also say that if you don't switch now it will be took late to take the chemistry classes. Does your department not let you take any classes outside of the department at all? Surely some of the physics students have crossdisciplinary interests that require them to take classes in, say, chemistry or computer science. Can't you register for some chem classes without having made a hard and fast decision? Your adviser or DGS can answer that.

I will echo, though, that in the beginning you are always doing something that you haven't learned much about. That's the purpose of graduate school - to learn more about it. I agree with both sides of the advice that you have. I think you are feeling some imposter syndrome - most graduate students feel behind, and all graduate students have to learn new instruments, new theories, and new journal formats. They still publish. I agree with the advice to talk to your adviser and ask him/her how behind you really are and whether you are prepare enough to do the work within physics. They admitted you for a reason.

However, you also know yourself better than anyone else, so if you are still feeling this way in a few weeks and feel like you can't claw your way out, it may be in your best interests to switch.

I asked about that. The advisor looked at me like I was crazy and said "No."

As you see, physics is very unique from even other physical sciences and engineering disciplines (in a bad way) at both the MS and PHD levels: There's a highly rigid sequence of courses that must be taken with no deviation whatsoever.

In physics, there's a whopping 7 required courses: math methods, classical mechanics, electricity and magnetism I, electricity and magnetism II, quantum mechanics I, statistical mechanics and advanced lab techniques. All except the lab involve alot of tedious math (as in stuff like recognizing to complete the square or you won't solve the problem) and it feels less like learning the most advanced technologies at the forefront of knowledge than "recognize highly specific algebra trick or you'll be stuck for hours!"

In the other science/engineering fields I'm familiar with, there's usually only 3-4 required courses and from what I see, they don't try to trick you with tedious algebra tricks. I downloaded and self studied a materials science grad course to help with my undergrad research and it was really alot less stressful than my current grad courses. They didn't try to trick you and the problems were straightforward, "did you understand the concepts?" type of things rather than "better spot this algebra trick" type of problems.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

update:

Currently in my graduate quantum class we are doing highly theoretical linear algebra proofs (not matrix mechanics, but actual proofs using linear algebra). None of the stuff is in the book and in the syllabus, its covered under a "review of math methods" section but in undergrad quantum and math methods none of this was covered. I assure you I'm not just whining, if anyone wants to see the questions I can PM them. The math in this quantum is harder than the actual math methods class and is very atypical, since I've seen the grad level quantum classes at my alma mater and other schools and they're not so heavy on the math proofs.

I'm just afraid more and more classes are going to be like this: heavy on the theoretical math, light on the actual physics. I spent 6 hours yesterday working on just 1 problem and spent another 5 today working on 1 problem with no result so far.

All the time that's going into researching answers on the net and looking at solution manuals to other books (there's no way I could ever figure this stuff out myself) could be going into reading research papers or being in the lab... damn this sucks... I'm always drained and exhausted because of the ridiculous math this teacher makes us do.