WOW - really bad instructor

[margarets]

This is for a continuing education course, in a field related to the master's program I plan to apply to later this year. Last night was the first class.

Yikes, was this guy ever bad. The class was scheduled from 6pm to 9:45pm. For the first two hours he covered the general course housekeeping stuff, then whipped through a bunch of lecture slides, then we had a fifteen-minute break. At this point he says "the best way for you to learn is to teach yourselves", directs us to a workshop/lecture/assignment document/thing (which is wildly disorganized) and leaves us to it. He got busy working on something on his computer and pretty much ignored us. This was around 8pm.

There were 90 freaking minutes left in the class. He could have done something in that time to, you know, teach. His whole vibe, plus a bunch of other comments he made like "if you're having problems, ask your neighbour for help before coming to me", was that of someone who intends to do the absolute bare minimum. And who rationalizes it by saying "teach yourselves".

We didn't pay to teach ourselves, we paid to be taught by him. If it's supposed to be a self-taught course, then say so, and give us better materials to work from. I feel like I've been bait-and-switched. I would never sign up for a course where the instructor essentially bails after the first two hours.

Is it just me, or does this sound really bad? I've taken two other courses with this school and the other instructors were much more engaged, especially in the first class.

[Eigen]

I can't imagine a lecture format class lasting for 3:45... A typical evening class is only 2:30, and it's still really hard to lecture that whole time.

But since this is a continuing ed class, I'm sure it's structured a bit differently from normal coursework?

[margarets]

Actually the course is supposed to be equivalent to a particular undergraduate course. It's not so much that the instructor is expected to fully lecture for the whole time. The instructors in the previous two courses gave proper lectures though, didn't just race through a bunch of slides, and then were available to answer questions as we worked our way through the workshops.

And the workshop materials were MUCH better, because they were actually coherently organized. This guy's stuff is like a stream-of-consciousness ramble that goes on for pages and pages. I've found a couple places where he's obviously cut-and-pasted various bits from previous lectures or whatever, but didn't clean it up, so there are repeated words and awkward sentences. It's all over the place. Just the kind of thing you get slammed for if it was in an assignment that you handed in.

[Dal PhDer]

Hmmmm.....

It sounds like he might not be the best at what he does, but I would give him another chance. I have often found the first class is not a good representation of what a professor can actually do. I would give it another week and and see.

With that said, I have been in a 3 hour class before where the first 90 minutes is a lecture, and the next 90 minutes are a self-directed lab. The teacher is normally there for questions, but they do expect you to figure it out and go through it on your own, and/or collaborate with your peers to help solve the problem. I have been in classes where this works really well because the directions/assignment is clearly laid out...but I have also been in ones where it's really hard and frustrating because it's really not clear what you're suppose to do.

So in one respect, I don't think he's poor for not lecturing for 90 minutes and getting your to teach yourself (this is what grad school is about a lot of the time...you teach yourself and/or others- I remember my first year I was shocked at how many of my classes had students facilitate/teach them...i was like "these profs don't gots to do nothin'!")....and it's not bad that he's suggestion you figure it out with your peers before coming to him...it might just be his personality...or he could have been having a bad day.

However, if you're finding the style and/or direction is not what you like, do you have an option to switch courses? What do previous students say about this professor?

[margarets]

He isn't listed on ratemyprofessors or anything, and none of my acquaintances have any experience with him, so I have no idea about his reputation.

I think one of the issues is that this con-ed dept is turning more and more to online courses, and my sense is that he's approaching the course in a similar fashion, he just happens to be physically present in the room.

The whole thing would be more acceptable if he were good at ONE of lecturing, coaching through the workshops, or preparing the materials. But to be bad at all three is just not on.

And it really vexes me that he is using class time for his other work. The other two instructors did that if no one needed them, but were always obliging when questions came up.

One of the major reasons why I'm taking the classroom version of the course is so that there is a set period of time when the instructor will definitely be available for my questions. I don't want to have to chase them down via email, especially when there are times when showing them the problem works better than describing it.

I *may* try meeting with him to find out if this is how he is going to approach the whole course and see if he can take some feedback. (Like at least using paragraph breaks and proofreading his workshops, and treating the classroom time as OUR time, not his extra catch-up time.) If he has an attitude about it, then it's el-dumpo.

[Eigen]

I realize you're approaching this from an undergrad perspective, but I really don't see what the problem is with him doing his own work while you're doing the workshop bit.

Did you go ask him questions? How did he respond to those questions? Did he tell you he didn't have time, to go figure it out on your own? Did you stop and ask questions during the lecture if he was going too fast?

I don't personally think its necessary for him to wander the room seeing if anyone has questions, as long as he doesn't completely rebuff you coming up to him and asking him things.

And personally, I definitely wouldn't approach him with the attitude that seems reflected here. I don't think it will turn out well, or come across well.

From your posts, he doesn't seem like a "bad" instructor, he just doesn't seem like a really good one, either. Coupled with the fact that you can't find reviews of him on RMP, I'd guess that he's a very new teacher. Give him some time to adjust. No one is great when the first start out, for the most part.

[mandarin.orange]

Actually the course is supposed to be equivalent to a particular undergraduate course. It's not so much that the instructor is expected to fully lecture for the whole time. The instructors in the previous two courses gave proper lectures though, didn't just race through a bunch of slides, and then were available to answer questions as we worked our way through the workshops.

And the workshop materials were MUCH better, because they were actually coherently organized. This guy's stuff is like a stream-of-consciousness ramble that goes on for pages and pages. I've found a couple places where he's obviously cut-and-pasted various bits from previous lectures or whatever, but didn't clean it up, so there are repeated words and awkward sentences. It's all over the place. Just the kind of thing you get slammed for if it was in an assignment that you handed in.

The ill prep you describe, plus the fact that this is a continuing ed course, plus the lack of any record for this guy, makes me wonder if he's a hastily-hired adjunct.

If that's the case, don't fault him right away - blame the system that hired him last minute, and give it a couple weeks. Seriously, the indignity with which institutions treat their adjuncts is such a widespread problem right now, and often they're just looking for a warm body to stand in front of the class in three days time, or even less.

[margarets]

_{Interesting how many of the replies focus on finding excuses for his behaviour, like it's simply not possible that he's just a bad instructor. We all know they exist, maybe I just happened to find one.}

_{The comment that I'm "approaching it from an undergrad perspective" is pretty funny. I'm 44 years old and have two degrees, and trust me, there is NO professional context in which the quality of writing in his teaching materials would pass muster. An undergrad would get a very poor grade if they handed in similar work. Not to mention there are some accessiblity/readability issues with it, i.e. it would be rough going for someone with vision impairment (which is a no-no by law in this jurisdiction).}

_{He's not new. I think it's just that no one is reviewing what he's doing.}

Edited September 14, 2012 by margarets

[mandarin.orange]

_{Interesting how many of the replies focus on finding excuses for his behaviour, like it's simply not possible that he's just a bad instructor. We all know they exist, maybe I just happened to find one.}

_{The comment that I'm "approaching it from an undergrad perspective" is pretty funny. I'm 44 years old and have two degrees, and trust me, there is NO professional context in which the quality of writing in his teaching materials would pass muster. An undergrad would get a very poor grade if they handed in similar work. Not to mention there are some accessiblity/readability issues with it, i.e. it would be rough going for someone with vision impairment (which is a no-no by law in this jurisdiction).}

_{He's not new. I think it's just that no one is reviewing what he's doing.}

In response to this, I will borrow Eigen's excellent reply from

[margarets]

Another example of people reading into posts things that aren't there. Maybe people on this forum are too invested in higher education? Still believe that higher education means higher intelligence, greater competence, more skill? Therefore, anyone who questions it must have something wrong with them. It couldn't possibly be that they are smarter or have more life experience. It's so much easier to cast aspersions rather than consider what they say.

(Yes, some people with less, or even NO, education are smarter than people with graduate degrees. Hope you were sitting down for that. And if you concede that degrees do not confer intelligence, competence or skill, then you must concede that it is possible that I am very, very smart. .Smarter than the bad instructor, smarter than the students who wrote those theses. And that's the reason for my questioning what I see. There are a lot of dumb things in the world, and academia is no exception. Doesn't someone have to see it?)

Let's face it, many of you are not going to become professors or even get jobs in your field. The oversupply of people with advanced degrees has been well-documented. Yet most if not all of you believe that somehow it'll work out for you. Why? Is it smart to believe that, despite all the evidence? How long till you start your own "don't go to grad school, it's not worth it" blog?

[margarets]

Come to think of it, why do you find the instructor's behaviour acceptable? Do you really consider that good teaching? Would you put down your own money to be taught like that? And just say, well maybe he had a bad day or he's overworked or he's new, but that's OK, I'll just work harder to overcome his weaknesses, that's totally fair and a good investment of my time.

If so, you are well-primed to be exploited by the academy.

[comp12]

[comp12]

I've been on the GradCafe all summer....

How in the world have I been missing out on margarets' fabulous activities here this whole time? Perhaps it's because I might have been paying too much attention to my formerly favorite troll anon1's entertaining threads, but boy, after checking out maragarets' previous threads, she blows anon1 out the water! Keep it up, lovin' it!

[ktel]

margarets only posts occasionally, asks for an opinion, gets mad, cycle repeats... I forget about her for long enough to want to take her threads seriously, then once I'm reminded of her past behavior I immediately avoid posting in them.

[Eigen]

It's funny that it was my mention of an undergrad perspective that started all this. It was obviously taken as a diminutive, when I meant it purely as a frame of reference. The fact that you're 18 or 45 really has nothing to do with it.

Most graduate students teach, the more senior grad students have taught more. The more you've taught, the more you look at an unprepared or not-great teacher, and think about the situation from their perspective.

I've also never heard a grad student use phrases like "We don't pay to teach ourselves, we pay to be taught by him", especially since most realize how very, very little of their tuition goes to paying their professors to teach.

[Lyra Belacqua]

As an alumna of this*, I think that the best way to learn something IS to teach yourself. You can't learn anything worthwhile just by osmosis.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Lyra Belacqua

[Dal PhDer]

Let's face it, many of you are not going to become professors or even get jobs in your field. The oversupply of people with advanced degrees has been well-documented. Yet most if not all of you believe that somehow it'll work out for you. Why? Is it smart to believe that, despite all the evidence? How long till you start your own "don't go to grad school, it's not worth it" blog?

I find this very disrespectful and completely unnecessary. It's unrelated to your topic and original post, and completely disregards the advice / comments the community has made to help you with this issue. If you approached the professor with this same attitude and sense of entitlement, I can see why they wouldn't want to help you.

In regard to the original topic.

1) Teaching is often only a small portion of tasks/duties professors have to complete. There is absolutely no reason why, during lab time when students are to complete an assignment and/or group work, the prof cannot be doing their own work. If they are there, and will assist you if you need help, then there's no harm. They should not be expected to sit, awaiting your call.

2) Graduate school is much more than being taught. Essentially at this level, it is expected that the profs will give you the information and then you take that information and learn it, synthesize it, and teach yourself through reading, discussion, peer work, and the knowledge of the prof/feedback from prof. In my experience, graduate school is not like undergrad where you are given a lecture (based on a textbook) for the entire time and then tested on it. In graduate school, you are simply given the tools and opportunity to gather the knowledge to learn from.

3) You are not paying the teacher to teach you. This is a horrible misconception. It is my understanding that a professors salary is based on a multitude of things, and teaching contributes only a small portion of that.

4) Sometimes teachers a not good at what they do. Yes. BUT they are human and humans have flaws. If you are having trouble understanding what their asking you to do, then it is your responsibility to respectfully approach them and ask them to explain further. Perhaps they have never received negative feedback on their teaching and/or assignment structure. In order for people to improve, they have to hear the feedback.

5) If you have never taught before, then you really do not understand the work that goes into course construction. Sometimes things happen, and you have to change it 30 minutes before class. You really cannot know what has happened prior to the lecture or assignment. Sometimes things happen and you can go with your original plan and you have to revise on the spot. It's a hard task to complete.

In the end, it's was the first class- you can't always judge a prof by the first class. If you don't end up liking their teaching style, then I would drop the course. Simple solution.

[margarets]

I know you enjoy slagging me off, and I know I enjoy watching people with (presumably) advanced critical thinking skills resort to ad hominem attacks, but remember that there are a couple dozen other students in this class. Is it acceptable that they must work around the instructor's shortcomings? Would this standard of instruction be acceptable in every class, i.e. if someone's entire university education was like this? If your kid had instructors like this and you were paying for their education, or your kid was going deeply into debt for it, would it be OK? Or if you were an employer paying for your employee to take the course?

I know it's funner to play the game of "let's think up all the ways that margarets is a terrible person", but how come all you aspiring professors/people-who-care-about-education care so little about the other students?

[Dal PhDer]

I would be far more disappointed if my entire graduate education was listening to an instructor lecture for an entire class.

I think you're purposefully missing the point that we're trying to say- graduate school is about more than just someone telling you information. It's about building skills around collaboration, information sharing, management, and presenting your ideas/thoughts clearly to an audience; it's about learning to develop and implement your own plan of action; and developing the tools and abilities to seek out information and self-learn.

A great way to help students learn this information is through self-directed labs. From your previous posts it seems that your fundamental problem is that you feel the professor should be guiding you along with this? Yes, perhaps they have presented a poorly written assignment- but once again, refer to my point in my previous post about shit happening.

Sitting in a lecture every class will not give you the skills you need to complete a thesis or be successful outside of your degree.

As for the money argument, a specific course instructor is so minimal in the entire scope of a graduate program. You're not paying for them, you're paying for your advisor, the space, etc. I don't think you can use that as a feasible argument here.

[asleepawake]

We are evacuating the area.

[Usmivka]

Isn't this thread dead yet? This is almost abusive...margarets is clearly not interested in hearing any constructive feedback. Anything posted here is like trying to clean my rabbit--it may be with the best of intentions, but she thinks she is under attack and just sits in the corner grunting and thumping. And no margarets, that is not an ad hominem attack, unlike your response to these posters, it is just a simile using a cute anecdote about my rabbit.

[asleepawake]

Isn't this thread dead yet? This is almost abusive...margarets is clearly not interested in hearing any constructive feedback. Anything posted here is like trying to clean my rabbit--it may be with the best of intentions, but she thinks she is under attack and just sits in the corner grunting and thumping. And no margarets, that is not an ad hominem attack, unlike your response to these posters, it is just a simile using a cute anecdote about my rabbit.

Why kill the thread when we can transform it?

[Dal PhDer]

..I dunno....sometimes you just can't help yourself....

[margarets]

Let's have some fun. Rationalize this:

http://gawker.com/5944240/art-schools-expensive-art-history-textbook-contains-no-actual-art

[Usmivka]

That poor horse...